Intermittent fasting, when do you lift weights? During or after the fast?

[basketballer99]

Hi,
Wanna get shredded for summer, intermittent fasting sounds like a interesting technique i would like to try however many people have said to workout after you break the fast (once you've eaten) however some say during the fast on an empty stomach then eat straight after (break the fast straight after)??
My main aim is to lose as little muscle as possible and burn as much fat.

Won't you have no energy to do a full workout then 15-20 mins of cardio after on nothing but water???
Some also say to take BCAA's before and post workout when you're on an empty stomach to give u that energy?

Any help would greatly be appreciated thanks!

EDIT: Let me know if this should be in the workout section rather than nutrition!

[Oatmealman99]

Neither, IF has no benefits over regular eating, especially for someone that's are age.

[Ripper908]

I train fasted on an empty stomach and the longest I would go fasted is just over night

not a fan of intermittent fasting. seems illogical to me to try and build muscle while starving your body from protein for extended periods of time

[gbullock32]

I train fasted on an empty stomach and the longest I would go fasted is just over night

not a fan of intermittent fasting. seems illogical to me to try and build muscle while starving your body from protein for extended periods of time

Science agrees, ~30g of protein every 4-5 hours is 'optimal' for muscle protein synthesis, along with 3g of leucine in that meal.

[Strawng]

Neither, IF has no benefits over regular eating, especially for someone that's are age.

This. There are many reasons someone such as yourself shouldn't be fasting OP. & FWIW back when I did IF I only ever trained fasted and ate right after. If you're limiting your food intake to a narrow window of time, why the hell would you wanna rush to the gym between huge meals?

[basketballer99]

Okay thanks for the advice guys,
I've heard training fasted helps fat loss be quicker??
I was planning to train in the morning fasted then eat my first meal straight after
If you don't advise IF then what would u suggest to help lost fat but lose minimal muscle?

[Oatmealman99]

Okay thanks for the advice guys,
I've heard training fasted helps fat loss be quicker??
I was planning to train in the morning fasted then eat my first meal straight after
If you don't advise IF then what would u suggest to help lost fat but lose minimal muscle?

Don't cut unless you're obese, pics?

[basketballer99]

I'd like to cut for summer, want to be able to see my abs. I don't ave any current pics but you can just about see my top two abs if i tense to give a rough idea.

[Mrpb]

Fasting from protein 16 hours per day is only going to make it harder to build muscle and it can make it harder to retain muscle.

Here's why: if you've been fasting for 12 hours muscle protein synthesis is low, while muscle protein breakdown is high. If you have protein at that moment it will spike muscle protein synthesis while it will suppress muscle protein breakdown. Net effect: more muscle building and retention.

The above does not mean that you can't build and retain muscle with IF. Obviously you can, it's just less optimal.

[ErikTheElectric]

Okay thanks for the advice guys,
I've heard training fasted helps fat loss be quicker??
I was planning to train in the morning fasted then eat my first meal straight after
If you don't advise IF then what would u suggest to help lost fat but lose minimal muscle?

Numerous posts in this thread AND current research say otherwise.

[lucasweb]

Science agrees, ~30g of protein every 4-5 hours is 'optimal' for muscle protein synthesis, along with 3g of leucine in that meal.

3g leucine with the 30g protein meals?

or PWO meal?

It can be only 30g protein meal? like 35g whey protein alone or do i need Carb + fat with this 30g protein?

[lucasweb]

Fasting from protein 16 hours per day is only going to make it harder to build muscle and it can make it harder to retain muscle.

Here's why: if you've been fasting for 12 hours muscle protein synthesis is low, while muscle protein breakdown is high. If you have protein at that moment it will spike muscle protein synthesis while it will suppress muscle protein breakdown. Net effect: more muscle building and retention.

The above does not mean that you can't build and retain muscle with IF. Obviously you can, it's just less optimal.

How mouch less optimal? like 10%?

i've been doing IF with 2 big meals.. and i want some advice..

i'm training fasted with 10g BCAA + pre workout supplement, 1 meal PWO and last meal 4 hours later..

I'm hitting the macros every single day.. and a i want some muscle gains.. should i stop doing IF?

[gbullock32]

3g leucine with the 30g protein meals?

or PWO meal?

It can be only 30g protein meal? like 35g whey protein alone or do i need Carb + fat with this 30g protein?

Protein Timing
Meal Timing 1
Meal Timing 2

[SuffolkPunch]

How mouch less optimal? like 10%?

i've been doing IF with 2 big meals.. and i want some advice..

i'm training fasted with 10g BCAA + pre workout supplement, 1 meal PWO and last meal 4 hours later..

I'm hitting the macros every single day.. and a i want some muscle gains.. should i stop doing IF?

You could simply alter what you are doing by having a protein shake on waking in the morning. This is better than BCAAs (which are a fraction of protein in any case) for producing protein synthesis and shouldn't alter your meal pattern entrainment much.

[lucasweb]

You could simply alter what you are doing by having a protein shake on waking in the morning. This is better than BCAAs (which are a fraction of protein in any case) for producing protein synthesis and shouldn't alter your meal pattern entrainment much.

Thanks for the repply,

Should i alter the bcaas for whey protein(like 30g) and go training after the 15min?

in this shake, could i add some bananas or oats or Something beneficial for this time(15min) ?

if i doing this.. it will be 3 meals:

1: Pre workout shake(30g whey)

2:PWO big meal(i add 5g leucine and 5g creatine for this) about 70% macros daily

3: meal about 30% macros daily..

can i optimize more ?

[SuffolkPunch]

I think you are being overly concerned with pre and post workout nutrition. Your body does not time nutrient delivery so finely. Better to read the links gbullock posted and eat according to the recommended pattern. The placement of meals around the workout is not so important if you are doing this.

[Mrpb]

How mouch less optimal? like 10%?

i've been doing IF with 2 big meals.. and i want some advice..

i'm training fasted with 10g BCAA + pre workout supplement, 1 meal PWO and last meal 4 hours later..

I'm hitting the macros every single day.. and a i want some muscle gains.. should i stop doing IF?

Why are you doing it?

If you want to continue IF make your eating window at least 8 hours. Replace the BCAAs with whey.

[lucasweb]

I think you are being overly concerned with pre and post workout nutrition. Your body does not time nutrient delivery so finely. Better to read the links gbullock posted and eat according to the recommended pattern. The placement is meals around the workout is not so important if you are doing this.

Ok sorry, can you give me the link of gbullock's links?


I was just worried about what you guys were talking about IF, and wanted to improve my routine based on what you said..

[lucasweb]

Why are you doing it?

If you want to continue IF make your eating window at least 8 hours. Replace the BCAAs with whey.

Time my friend, i work all day and study at night, don't have much time to optimize some things..

just want a little help to adequate ot my routine, i can wake up earlier to optimize the meals like you said..

[SuffolkPunch]

Ok sorry, can you give me the link of gbullock's links?


I was just worried about what you guys were talking about IF, and wanted to improve my routine based on what you said..

Protein Timing
Meal Timing 1
Meal Timing 2

^ Click on these

[lucasweb]

^ Click on these

sorry for being dumb,

i'm brazillian and my english is bad..

may you tell what's going on on this three articles in short words?

i really want to fix my meal timing and have a nice MPS..

Thanks my friend anyway!!

[R5GT]

While IF may not be "optimal" the difference in results will be so small the differences will only be picked up from getting your bodyfat tested professionally, You are not likely to notice any difference via the mirror what so ever. Based on this my advice is choose the diet approach you are most comfortable with and is the least hassle and most of all stress free.

Personally i feel the whole " 4-5 protein rich meals per day" being advised as "optimal" is misleading. Sure its optimal, but the difference it makes in the real world is so small, it can cause people unnecessary stress when it comes to their diet worrying about getting enough protein in every meal and multiple times per day etc. Just hitting your daily protein needs each day is enough to maximize any visual changes you will ever see in the mirror. no need to worry about micromanaging your diet any further,

Its optimal to keep your car tyres pressures at the correct PSI for your MPG, but if they are a few PSI out you are not going to notice the difference. Unless you do 20k miles and work out how much it cost. It will take you years to notice the difference and its the same with IF,

This guy used IF to cut with only a 4 hour eating window all post work out check out his results below

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=157953253

[lucasweb]

my routine is just like him..

That's what i asked myself.. how much is optimal.. like 5% .. 10%?

[R5GT]

how much is optimal.. like 5% .. 10%?

Put is this way, This has been debated before and this difference is so small nobody can even give a %. infact some will argue that there is NO DIFFRENCE

This is a good read..

In this study,. Over 8 weeks, subjects doing intermittent fasting a la Leangains, lost a lot more fat - and even gained more muscle - than subjects on a normal diet.

http://www.leangains.com/2016/10/the...ins-study.html

[SuffolkPunch]

While IF may not be "optimal" the difference in results will be so small the differences will only be picked up from getting your bodyfat tested professionally, You are not likely to notice any difference via the mirror what so ever. Based on this my advice is choose the diet approach you are most comfortable with and is the least hassle and most of all stress free.

Personally i feel the whole " 4-5 protein rich meals per day" being advised as "optimal" is misleading. Sure its optimal, but the difference it makes in the real world is so small, it can cause people unnecessary stress when it comes to their diet worrying about getting enough protein in every meal and multiple times per day etc. Just hitting your daily protein needs each day is enough to maximize any visual changes you will ever see in the mirror. no need to worry about micromanaging your diet any further,

Its optimal to keep your car tyres pressures at the correct PSI for your MPG, but if they are a few PSI out you are not going to notice the difference. Unless you do 20k miles and work out how much it cost. It will take you years to notice the difference and its the same with IF,

This guy used IF to cut with only a 4 hour eating window all post work out check out his results below

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=157953253

How are you quantifying these claims? With an n=1 anecdote?

Actually, having done both IF and the prescribed MPS meal pattern myself, I can tell you my results had stagnated under IF but I am making new progress under MPS. Another n=1 anecdote.

Unless it's a big inconvenience to follow the 3-5 meal MPS pattern (which can just include a shake for some of those meals) then I say go for it.

[gbullock32]

my routine is just like him..

That's what i asked myself.. how much is optimal.. like 5% .. 10%?

There is 'optimal' and there is 'do-able'; if what you are doing now works best for you, than it is optimal because it allows you to perform your best.

In the end, while having protein more often might give a slight edge, if it is an inconvenience for you than it will be negligible. Given most of us do this as a hobby (lifting) we work it around our lives, instead of working our lives around lifting.

[JaymzJ]

If you feel you are lacking energy for your workout eat a bit before but everyone is different, sometimes I have more energy if I don't eat but it doesn't matter really, like suffolk said earlier nutrient delivery is not that fine tuned, as long as you stay in your eating window and get what food you need in that window to recover it doesn't matter if you eat pre/post workout. I use IF once in a while, it's a good fat loss tool but it's not some kind of miracle solution either and it's not just about not eating, there is more science to it than that, google it!

[Mrpb]

Put is this way, This has been debated before and this difference is so small nobody can even give a %.

R5GT: you're posting in a thread of a 17 year old who believes that IF boosts fat loss. A 17 year shouldn't be on IF at all and his misconceptions should be cleared up.

Now on to your questions: People can't give an exact percentage because there IS no exact percentage that applies to everyone in all circumstances.

However, the differences can be significant. This graph shows the 12h MPS difference between 4x20 gram (INT), 8x10 gram (PULSE) and 2x40 gram (BOLUS). Other studies have shown a 0.9 correlation between 24h MPS and actual muscle growth.

infact some will argue that there is NO DIFFRENCE

But that would be speculation that's not supported by good evidence.

This is a good read..

http://www.leangains.com/2016/10/the...ins-study.html

This study did not measure muscle, instead CSA was estimated by measuring circumference and skinfold data of the thigh and arm, a rather inaccurate method. What exactly happened on a muscle level is anyone's guess. Another study has shown that there can be a 2x difference in fiber growth without DEXA measuring any difference.

The IF group had a 20% reduction in testosterone even though the calorie deficit was only 200 calories. The decrease in testosterone will likely be greater with a 500 calorie deficit.

[boo99]

While IF may not be "optimal" the difference in results will be so small the differences will only be picked up from getting your bodyfat tested professionally, You are not likely to notice any difference via the mirror what so ever. Based on this my advice is choose the diet approach you are most comfortable with and is the least hassle and most of all stress free.

Personally i feel the whole " 4-5 protein rich meals per day" being advised as "optimal" is misleading. Sure its optimal, but the difference it makes in the real world is so small, it can cause people unnecessary stress when it comes to their diet worrying about getting enough protein in every meal and multiple times per day etc. Just hitting your daily protein needs each day is enough to maximize any visual changes you will ever see in the mirror. no need to worry about micromanaging your diet any further,

Its optimal to keep your car tyres pressures at the correct PSI for your MPG, but if they are a few PSI out you are not going to notice the difference. Unless you do 20k miles and work out how much it cost. It will take you years to notice the difference and its the same with IF,

This guy used IF to cut with only a 4 hour eating window all post work out check out his results below

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=157953253

From my own experience this past year with IF, I would not agree here

By not having my PRO for extended hours (8-10 most days) for extended periods of time (months), I def. lost muscle and strength, I could see it in the mirror and by my progress pix

I did IF to ease my ED which it didnt

Im finally back to pre IF where I was eating PRO every 4-5 hrs, 40grams (Im OLD so I take in more) and in the last 6 weeks of back at this routine, I can see positive differences in body comp

Now of course this is MY situation and Im old, a 22yo etc may be able to get away with it with no noticeable atrophy in muscle however I would not ever do this again nor advise any older lifters to do so.....Its bad enough dealing with sarcopenia so that plus what I did= disastrous body comp results



Hello Mrpb, good to see you posting more again

[Mrpb]

This is what happens with many IF fans (and keto fans etc): they tend to focus on a single study or anecdotal evidence that seems to support their ideas while they ignore a good deal of evidence and anecdotes that go against it, a.k.a. confirmation bias.

I've tried IF, I got cold and cranky while fasting. When I switched to 4 meals of ~40 gram protein I was able to gain some muscle while dropping fat. I'm 44.

Generally speaking: the older and/or closer you are to your unique genetic potential and/or if you have average to poor genetics for muscle gain, the harder it will be to make progress with a suboptimal protein distribution (such as 16 hours fasting).

If you're young, genetically blessed and/or newer to lifting you can get away with all sort of suboptimal practices.