Are there actually any success stories from Fierce 5, Starting strength etc.

[tpreston92]

All I ever see is guys complaing they've put on loads on fat from them and haven't benefited as much as they'd have liked.

It's kind of off putting when you're two weeks into one of the programs yourself and aren't making as much progress as you thought.

A PT in my gym has recommended I follow a upper/lower routine which is designed specially for hypertrophy since primarily my goal is to build muscle.

I'm determined to stick at the Fierce 5 routine though so is anyone able to spur me on with any success stories?

Or is my PT right. Since I have been training a couple of years (granted I've obviously not made much progress due to me being uneducated in the past). Would I also still benefit from an upper/lower routine?

[SuffolkPunch]

Novice routines are designed to get you from total newbie to intermediate stage as quickly as possible.

You won't see any impressive physiques at this stage because after only 3 or 4 months, that isn't realistic.

At this stage, unless you get to under 12% BF, you probably will not look vastly different.

But it's a big step in the right direction and if you take measurements (strength and muscle girth) you will see the difference.

[tpreston92]

Novice routines are designed to get you from total newbie to intermediate stage as quickly as possible.

You won't see any impressive physiques at this stage because after only 3 or 4 months, that isn't realistic.

At this stage, unless you get to under 12% BF, you probably will not look vastly different.

But it's a big step in the right direction and if you take measurements (strength and muscle girth) you will see the difference.

I am looking at the fastest option as I don't want to be spinning my wheels forever on end. Do you recommend sticking at the Fierce 5 routine for 3/4 months and then transitioning to an intermediate program right away or cutting the fat first?

[Jasonk282]

Starting strength 4 months, 6 years ago...

Squat 145x5-275x5
Bench 95x5-195x5
Deadlift 185x5-335x5
Ohp 45x5-135x5

2012 2 weeks into lifting...


Monday 3/13/17


Starting strength is just that...a start. This game is a marathon, not a sprint

[OryxOryx]

Beginner routines have the fastest progression. The move from beginner to intermediate is to slow down your progression in light of the fact that you will no longer be able to progress as fast as a beginner. So if you want the fastest gains, get your nutrition right and follow a good beginner routine.

Your PT's program might be good and it might be bad, but the beginner programs here are definitely good. Also keep in mind that PTs have an incentive to over-complicate things to justify their existence. There are great PTs out there, but it is important to keep that incentive in mind when talking to a PT.

As for success stories, I've quadrupled my squat, doubled my bench, and tripled my deadlift on allpro. I also definitely have a lot more muscle mass and I am also leaner. I don't look like some ripped dude because I'm still a beginner and I have a lot of fat to lose, but there is no doubt whatsoever that I've made a lot of progress.

[tpreston92]

My point is though. Because I've weight trained for the past 2 years I wouldn't necessarily class myself as a beginner therefore have I bypassed the 'newbie gains' stage? Like I said though I jumped straight into a split to start with and didn't have a clue when it came to nutrition so I didn't make as much progress as intended. I feel as though I would now I'm more educated.

[Jasonk282]

My point is though. Because I've weight trained for the past 2 years I wouldn't necessarily class myself as a beginner therefore have I bypassed the 'newbie gains' stage? Like I said though I jumped straight into a split to start with and didn't have a clue when it came to nutrition so I didn't make as much progress as intended. I feel as though I would now I'm more educated.

How much are you benching, squatting and deadlifting.

Length of time lifting doesn't mean you're not a beginner

[OryxOryx]

My point is though. Because I've weight trained for the past 2 years I wouldn't necessarily class myself as a beginner therefore have I bypassed the 'newbie gains' stage? Like I said though I jumped straight into a split to start with and didn't have a clue when it came to nutrition so I didn't make as much progress as intended. I feel as though I would now I'm more educated.

Whether or not you are still classified as a beginner is not based on whether you have weight trained for 2 years but whether you have legitimately exhausted your beginner gains.

In the Fierce 5 Routine, for example, the author gives a specific definition of what a legitimate stall is so that you know when you've exhausted the program's usefulness and are ready to move on to an intermediate routine. So if you are doing Fierce 5 and you have stalled exactly as described by the author, then you can try an intermediate routine. Just make sure you stall exactly as described in the program, not according to your own definition of stall.

You should *want* to stay in a beginner program for as long as you can make gains on that program, because those are the programs with the fastest progression. Moving to an intermediate program means slowing down your progress if you haven't legitimately exhausted beginner gains. So it is worth your time to determine definitively whether you've exhausted beginner gains, instead of moving to an intermediate program because you feel like it or because "intermediate" sounds better than "beginner".

[tpreston92]

How much are you benching, squatting and deadlifting.

Length of time lifting doesn't mean you're not a beginner

Progress 2 week into Fierce 5:

Bench: 99lbs
Squat: 120lbs
OHP: 71lbs
RDL: 99lbs

[Jasonk282]

Progress 2 week into Fierce 5:

Bench: 99lbs
Squat: 120lbs
OHP: 71lbs
RDL: 99lbs

You're a beginner...

Like I showed you in my first post in this thread with my pictures...it takes a lot more than 3 or 4 months to make solid progress.

Think Inn terms of where you will be 3 or 4 years for now

[KyleAaron]

Your PT's program might be good and it might be bad, but the beginner programs here are definitely good. Also keep in mind that PTs have an incentive to over-complicate things to justify their existence. There are great PTs out there, but it is important to keep that incentive in mind when talking to a PT.

I find that results justify my existence far better than complication ever would.

OP, you need to be patient. You have a good example in this thread of someone doing things for five years. You're not getting a great physique in 3 months, sorry. No sixpack abs in 30 days.

Most guys don't get great results on their beginner programmes because

1. they're not actually doing the programme (see for example the butchering of SS by people posting on the boards of SS! Only 5.2% did the programme, more or less. http://startingstrength.com/article/wndtp)
2. their food is crap

They then blame the programme for their poor results. Now, what is a major cause of the poor results? Impatience and laziness. In the SS example, most of the guys did not squat at least twice a week, they started their weights too high, made too big jumps in weight and got stuck early on and quit. This is very common.

This is one of the ways I make sure my clients get results: I can't make them eat good food, but I can at least make them do the programme properly, which 95% wouldn't on their own.

Pick a programme and do it, eat good food, and be patient.

[MyEgoProblem]

2 weeks?... Come on buddy, nut up and make the effort before ****ting something eh..

There are 1000s of logs of people who went from zero to closing out their noob gains out there to read..

Second point.. 3x5 sure af is a "hypertrophy" workout.. Novices get stronger, faster and bigger in the same micro cycle!

Becoming intermediate isn't some badge of honour, it's a curse.. Novices who can straight up just keep adding weight are the envy of all lifters**... That **** stops, progression slows right down... And dont even start on advanced lifters who may add a few kilos per YEAR!

Get your head down, eat your food, lift your prescription of weight.. And do some research on you rest days.

** unless they are Total idiots Ofc..

I find that results justify my existence far better than complication ever would.

OP, you need to be patient. You have a good example in this thread of someone doing things for five years. You're not getting a great physique in 3 months, sorry. No sixpack abs in 30 days.

Most guys don't get great results on their beginner programmes because

1. they're not actually doing the programme (see for example the butchering of SS by people posting on the boards of SS! Only 5.2% did the programme, more or less. http://startingstrength.com/article/wndtp)
2. their food is crap

They then blame the programme for their poor results. Now, what is a major cause of the poor results? Impatience and laziness. In the SS example, most of the guys did not squat at least twice a week, they started their weights too high, made too big jumps in weight and got stuck early on and quit. This is very common.

Pick a programme and do it, eat good food, and be patient.

Hero

[tpreston92]

I find that results justify my existence far better than complication ever would.

OP, you need to be patient. You have a good example in this thread of someone doing things for five years. You're not getting a great physique in 3 months, sorry. No sixpack abs in 30 days.

Most guys don't get great results on their beginner programmes because

1. they're not actually doing the programme (see for example the butchering of SS by people posting on the boards of SS! Only 5.2% did the programme, more or less. http://startingstrength.com/article/wndtp)
2. their food is crap

They then blame the programme for their poor results. Now, what is a major cause of the poor results? Impatience and laziness. In the SS example, most of the guys did not squat at least twice a week, they started their weights too high, made too big jumps in weight and got stuck early on and quit. This is very common.

This is one of the ways I make sure my clients get results: I can't make them eat good food, but I can at least make them do the programme properly, which 95% wouldn't on their own.

Pick a programme and do it, eat good food, and be patient.

I can relate to this. Today in the gym I struggled with some of my lifts and then felt like giving up. Even at the puny numbers I'm lifting at I'm unsure if I've jumped the weight too fast.

[Jasonk282]

I can relate to this. Today in the gym I struggled with some of my lifts and then felt like giving up. Even at the puny numbers I'm lifting at I'm unsure if I've jumped the weight too fast.

The best way imo, is to just add 5 lbs per session, that keeps things slow and steady.

[TheViking1992]

Becoming intermediate isn't some badge of honour, it's a curse.. Novices who can straight up just keep adding weight are the envy of all lifters**... That **** stops, progression slows right down... And dont even start on advanced lifters who may add a few kilos per YEAR!

Ain't that the fúcking truth... almost 3 months into this year, haven't made made any improvements on my bench yet...

[KyleAaron]

One bad aspect of Starting Strength is that they tell you to in the first session find a moderately challenging weight. But you're a newbie, by definition you can't judge - so every young guy starts too high. This comes from the thing's history as advice to coaches - who are experienced, and can judge. Stronglifts, though written by a guy with no coaching experience, was more sensible in this regard - he said, start with the empty bar.

Greyskull Linear Programming - from a guy who worked with the SS guy - doesn't tell you where to start, but it does tell you to add 5lbs a time to squat and deadlift, and 2lbs a time to press and bench.

Start easy, take it up in small steps. Unless you're trying out for a football team in 2 months or something, there's no hurry.

[EjnarKolinkar]

No harm in 5*5. U/L programs are fine too. No real reason not to do lots of practice at the main lifts on a 5*5 in a comeback.

People think they will get hyooooge overnight and program hop. IRL people need to learn to train, good form, build confidence. Frequency assists with this.

I think people should look at a 5*5 as an investment in themselves. But so many are imaptient, slap on too much weight too fast, develop bad habits, and snivel about not becoming the hulk in 6 months.

[davisj3537]

Kyle said this elsewhere recently and it really stuck with me. The iron doesn't lie. You get out exactly what you put in. You've been lifting for years and have the lifts and physique of a beginner. That's because you're not consistent, not busting your ass and not eating to grow. Even if you'd been using a terrible damn program you'd have achieved better lifts and physique.

Now you're all of a sudden determined to get the fastest results possible and second guessing sh*t again. Upset at no results in 2 weeks. 2 weeks? lol. This is another red flag brother.

Follow the program, hit the weights hard, eat to grow and don't miss any days. It's that simple man. Work hard and the results will come, but you're not going to do anything for 6 months and have a great body. This sh*t doesn't work that way. It takes years. If you want a nice body in the next 6 months then get surgical implants like Justin Jedlica...look him up. Dude doesn't lift.

[tpreston92]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've slept since and you guys are right. Results take time and consistency.

I had a bad session yesterday and was moaning like a b***h lol but I get bad days are going to happen. My energy levels were lacking yesterday so I'm thinking I'm going to have to bump up cals.

[TnTNZ]

As someone who's been running Fierce 5 for just over 6 months, this is where I'm at with it.
I list my calculated 1rms when I finished my bro-split to now.

Weight (kg) 84.5 -> 86.5
Body Fat % 16 -> 14

1RM's
Bench (kg) 85 -> 100
Squat (kg) 120 -> 150
RDL (kg) 124 -> 160

Didn't have a conventional deadlift 1RM at the start of F5 but it's now a confirmed 155kg dispite not actually training it.

All I ever see is guys complaing they've put on loads on fat from them and haven't benefited as much as they'd have liked.

Well, weight went up, body fat went down. I'm stronger and leaner. Would I liked to have benefited more? Of course, should I have *expected* to benefit more? I'll go with no, that's called being unrealistic.

These programs work, if they're not working for an individual, I'd say they are
a. Not following the program.
b. Not eating approriately.
c. Not resting appropriately.
d. Have unrealistic expectations
e. All of the above.

Like has been said above, it takes time and consistency to see results.

[grouchyjarhead]

One of Rippetoe's favorite success stories is a young guy who trained with him named Zach. Zach was a tall skinny guy who started squatting 145x5. In 6 months he was 242 squatting 345x5. Here's his 5x5 with 320 from back then. My favorite part is after he finishes you see him working on a gallon of milk.

[grubman]

Kyle said this elsewhere recently and it really stuck with me. The iron doesn't lie. You get out exactly what you put in. You've been lifting for years and have the lifts and physique of a beginner. That's because you're not consistent, not busting your ass and not eating to grow. Even if you'd been using a terrible damn program you'd have achieved better lifts and physique.

Now you're all of a sudden determined to get the fastest results possible and second guessing sh*t again. Upset at no results in 2 weeks. 2 weeks? lol. This is another red flag brother.

Follow the program, hit the weights hard, eat to grow and don't miss any days. It's that simple man. Work hard and the results will come, but you're not going to do anything for 6 months and have a great body. This sh*t doesn't work that way. It takes years. If you want a nice body in the next 6 months then get surgical implants like Justin Jedlica...look him up. Dude doesn't lift.

This post should be cut and pasted in every thread where someone is bemoaning thier lack of gains after a minimal subpar investment of time and effort.

[Jasonk282]

One of Rippetoe's favorite success stories is a young guy who trained with him named Zach. Zach was a tall skinny guy who started squatting 145x5. In 6 months he was 242 squatting 345x5. Here's his 5x5 with 320 from back then. My favorite part is after he finishes you see him working on a gallon of milk.

Mark's programs are good, but let's be honest. GOMAD is probably one of the worst ways to go about gaining weight...

[FaIIen]

Mark's programs are good, but let's be honest. GOMAD is probably one of the worst ways to go about gaining weight...

I agree, it's a bit of an over-exaggeration. I do drink half a gallon of 1.0-1.5 % milk on a daily basis tho, easier to hit macros.

[grouchyjarhead]

Mark's programs are good, but let's be honest. GOMAD is probably one of the worst ways to go about gaining weight...

Worked well for me as I talked about in previous threads, so I can't say it's all bad.

I will say I think Jim Wendler's advice of eating 1-2 pounds of beef a day is probably better though.

[sooby]

I think it is very unfair to judge beginner programs based on what you look before and after and I think they unfairly get a bad rep because of that. Beginner programs aren't run for very long anyway, the average being around 5-6 months.

Not only is how you look determined mostly by your diet but as a beginner you are unlikely to see huge changes to your body because despite beginner gains being a thing you likely still haven't accumulated enough muscle mass. Not to mention beginners are more likely to make more mistakes, thus hindering gains and messing up body composition. I know I made a lot of those mistakes.

Instead strength programs should be judged upon how much stronger you become from Day 1 to say Day 120. With that said I'll share my results.

In 5 months on Starting Strength

Weight: 170 - 190 (honestly I went kind of potato on my diet)
Bench 65 x 5 - 200 x 5
Squat 75 x 5 - 310 x 5
Deadlift 95 x 5 - 315 x 5 (I honestly had a lot of problems with deadlift form)
Overhead Press 50 x 5 - 130 x 4


As long as you don't go potato with your diet and follow the program you'll get good results.

[Jasonk282]

In 5 months on Starting Strength

Weight: 170 - 190 (honestly I went kind of potato on my diet)
Bench 65 x 5 - 200 x 5
Squat 75 x 5 - 310 x 5
Deadlift 95 x 5 - 315 x 5 (I honestly had a lot of problems with deadlift form)
Overhead Press 50 x 5 - 130 x 4

So...OP. you now have 2 guys than ran SS for 4 and 5 months and made very similar gainz...

[Millz12323]

Will return to this thread to post pics. Of me running starting strength Jan - April 2016 while on a cut.


Bench 105 - 190 5x5
OHP - 45 - 105 5x5
Squat - 135 - 235 5x5 (bad form had to relearn several times afterwards)
DL 135 - 245 5x5 (also bad form had to relearn a few times after)



I lost 25 pounds in the process and put on lean tissue. All be it I wasn't coming from a completely untrained point of view. But I was fat as hell and hadn't been to a gym in over 2 years. But had prior training experience. Will upload pics in this thread tonight to prove that isht works man.

[Millz12323]

Can't get on the computer to upload pics but I put them in my profile.

First pic Dec 2015, 205 pounds and clearly very fat with a big belly and no training in the last 2 years.

Second pic apr 2016 just a few months later @ 175. Its not an impressive physique but it sure is good progress in a short time.

I ended up getting hurt in April and didn't get back to the gym until September.

Anyway my point is that strong lifts is a great program.

[rlefebvr]

Starting strength 4 months, 6 years ago...

Squat 145x5-275x5
Bench 95x5-195x5
Deadlift 185x5-335x5
Ohp 45x5-135x5

2012 2 weeks into lifting...


Monday 3/13/17


Starting strength is just that...a start. This game is a marathon, not a sprint

All I can say is wow. I'd post your picture on my wall, but my wife would look at me funny.