Full body program works well, except for chest and shoulders

[larsfromars]

My body is weird. I've always had problems with the chest and my shoulders, and me changing it up to a full body workout 3 times a week changed nothing to fix that. Been lifting for a few years, tried all sorts of programs etc, but the problem remains. Anyway, here's my program. Would like your input on it. Oh, and I've got several injuries that makes it hard for me to do for example deadlifts and bent over rows, and I can't have too much of a volume on squats. Yes, it sucks. Imagine lifting for years and years and not looking like you lift except when you take your shirt off. It's just sad.

My diet is pretty clean. I try to eat fish or meat at every meal, focusing mostly on the protein and trying to get enough of it. I eat a lot, and carbs and fat are easy to eat enough of.. I also eat a lot more vegetables than I used to. Trying to cut some of the sugar. Bw atm is ~ 95 kg


Aaaanyway, my program (and I switch things around, so that I'm not doing this exact thing every single time; sometimes I start with rows, somethings with bench, sometimes with squats; changing the order etc)

Flat bench, 5-8 sets, low reps (other times I go high rep lighter weights for 5-6 sets. I do get stronger, so SOMETHING'S happening)
Pulldowns, 5 sets
Seated rows, 3 sets (back injury)
Squats, 5-6 sets
Dumbbell shoulder press, 5 sets
Cabel cross chest, 5 sets
Lateral raises, 5 sets
Preacher curl, 5 sets
Pushdowns, 3 sets

Hmm I think that was it. I don't have the program in front of me. I get a good pump all over, my chest looks pretty good, so does my shoulders and just about everything else. And everything is growing except from the chest and shoulders, and shoulders is the worst part.

Read somewhere that high reps, high(er) volume on shoulders can work, so I'm thinking of trying that. Been focusing on barbell presses a lot in the past and got pretty strong, but size has always been a problem.

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[SCS1223]

How much do you bench?

[Siddharth97]

8 sets of bench,5 sets of shoulder press and another 5 sets of lateral raises? Sounds like you're just overkilling your shoulders there

[larsfromars]

@ Siddhart97: I've tried doing a lot less, but that did next to nothing. How are your shoulders, and how's your program? (Edit: And why are people so afraid to "over train".. Not starting a fight here, I just think a lot of people are afraid of volume.. )

@ SCS1223: Atm I don't bench that much, and I do get the correlation between size and strength. "You're small because you're weak" etc. But even when I pressed 50 kg more than I do now, I wasn't that much bigger (I'm actually heavier now than what I was then, about the same fat percentage). I used to train for javelin, so my focus used to be on pullovers, overhead presses, liakov, core strenght etc. I don't remember the exact numbers, but before my shoulder surgery pb for pullovers was ~70 kg and I benched about 150 kg or something like that.

[SuffolkPunch]

How much do you bench?

You aren't doing any posterior delt work - like you would get from rowing or facepulls.

There are many ways to produce progress. Increasing volume is one of them - except that can be taken too far like anything. Exercise variation may be worth trying (reverse grip BB bench or DB benching, upright rows) as well as different set/rep approaches. It may help to read this:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=173498591

[Sweetums6000]

(Edit: And why are people so afraid to "over train".. Not starting a fight here, I just think a lot of people are afraid of volume.. )

It's not that I'm afraid of volume, I would just rather not get acclimated to higher volume before I have to, so I have the option of increasing volume in the future as tool to overcome plateaus.

[larsfromars]

You aren't doing any posterior delt work - like you would get from rowing or facepulls.

There are many ways to produce progress. Increasing volume is one of them - except that can be taken too far like anything. Exercise variation may be worth trying (reverse grip BB bench or DB benching, upright rows) as well as different set/rep approaches. It may help to read this:

I do face pulls and bent over lateral raises (is that's what it's called in English?) from time to time, and I do different varietys of seated rows. Most of the time it burns pretty well in my posterior delts, but maybe I should just add a fews sets of isolation exercises. Actually other people have said the same, so maybe I should just take the hint..

I also do db bench from time to time - probably should've mentioned that in my OP. Atm I'm focusing on increasing my pressing strength, that's the only reason I do regular benching. I could easily replace it with db presses or another exercise for that matter; I did a lot of dips for a longer period of time a few months ago and got a lot stronger, but because of my shoulder injury (had surgery) it got painful.

Thanks for the link, I'll have a look at it.

It's not that I'm afraid of volume, I would just rather not get acclimated to higher volume before I have to, so I have the option of increasing volume in the future as tool to overcome plateaus.

Ah, I see. I guess I messed up there pretty early, I didn't know about this then - I really like to lift, and always have, and I usually have a lot of energy, so it's easy for me to go high volume. When I first began lifting weights volume was king, and I figured if I did what Arnold did, I'd get just as big. If you've ever seen his programs, you'll know that was dumb. I was just 17-18 years old at the time, and knew nothing..

[Jasonk282]

Still haven't answered...

How much do you bench?

Your chest and shoulders won't get bigger if you're not getting bigger...and shoulders a very small muscle group will be damn hard to get big anyways

[larsfromars]

It's impossible to give input to my questions without knowing how much I bench? As I said before, it's not like I don't know that a weak muscle usually will be smaller than a strong one, but size have always been lacking; the reply given after answering to how much I bench would probably be somewhere along the lines of "aha! You're weak, that's why your not strong", but even when I pressed ~150 kg and had ~70 kg in pullovers, people could hardly tell I was lifting. My question was general. I don't need anyone to tell me that my bench sucks, because I know that already, but even when it wasn't terrible, my chest was still on the small-ish side. Anyway - atm I can probably press 120 kg on an insanely good day.

[Jasonk282]

Are you eating to gain weight? If you're not gaining weight then you're not gonna be bigger

[SuffolkPunch]

At 95 kg, unless you are very tall, it may just be bodyfat that is preventing you from showing definition. If you naturally hold fat around your chest area, it will look soft.

Shoulder injury is obviously not going to help, you need structural balance in your program. I would regard regular face pull as mandatory. overhead shrug probably too.

[Siddharth97]

@ Siddhart97: I've tried doing a lot less, but that did next to nothing. How are your shoulders, and how's your program? (Edit: And why are people so afraid to "over train".. Not starting a fight here, I just think a lot of people are afraid of volume.. )

@ SCS1223: Atm I don't bench that much, and I do get the correlation between size and strength. "You're small because you're weak" etc. But even when I pressed 50 kg more than I do now, I wasn't that much bigger (I'm actually heavier now than what I was then, about the same fat percentage). I used to train for javelin, so my focus used to be on pullovers, overhead presses, liakov, core strenght etc. I don't remember the exact numbers, but before my shoulder surgery pb for pullovers was ~70 kg and I benched about 150 kg or something like that.

Taking into account all my other lifts and total bodyweight my shoulders are a strong part for me,shoulder pressing almost my body weight for 3 sets of 5. I'am on fierce five's full body. Its not that people are afraid of it,its just that its pointless having overly high sets and reps if you're not progressing. 3x5,with some sort of progress in weight is going to do far more than those 18 sets that you're doing if you aren't increasing your weights. And its particularly easy to over train your shoulders because of how it gets used indirectly in other lifts.

[larsfromars]

Are you eating to gain weight? If you're not gaining weight then you're not gonna be bigger

Yup, my diet is ok, I think. Atm I'm actually gaining weight sloooowly and losing fat. And I'm using a tape measure, so it's pretty clear that I'm eating enough to actually gain muscle since everything else is growing. It's not like I'm cutting though, losing fat came mostly as a side effect of me eating more clean food instead of eating crap, and staying away from sugar. I got a new job 4 months ago, where I went from moving "all" day to sitting still most of the time, and so I had to change my diet a bit..

At 95 kg, unless you are very tall, it may just be bodyfat that is preventing you from showing definition. If you naturally hold fat around your chest area, it will look soft.

Shoulder injury is obviously not going to help, you need structural balance in your program. I would regard regular face pull as mandatory. overhead shrug probably too.

I'm not that tall, 179 cm-ish. I'm going to get a body scan one of these day, to see my fat %. I do have some fat, but people call me slim. But then again, I'm surrounded by overweight people that doesn't lift..

I'll include face pulls. Overhead shrugs I haven't even seen before, in my ~20 years of doing different sports. Imagine that.. I do regular shrugs from time to time though, what's the big difference?

Taking into account all my other lifts and total bodyweight my shoulders are a strong part for me,shoulder pressing almost my body weight for 3 sets of 5. I'am on fierce five's full body. Its not that people are afraid of it,its just that its pointless having overly high sets and reps if you're not progressing. 3x5,with some sort of progress in weight is going to do far more than those 18 sets that you're doing if you aren't increasing your weights. And its particularly easy to over train your shoulders because of how it gets used indirectly in other lifts.

How's that working out for size? Had a look at it and I'm probably missing something - but only 3x5 in bench? I use that many sets for my warm-up. My shoulder needs it.. haha 8-) I can get a pump by just one set, but I'm really careful when it comes to warming up.

I btw do increase the weights, so I'm getting stronger. My bench is what gets stronger fastest. But getting stronger have never been my problem, putting on mass has. I can probably gain a lot by working more on my diet though, and going low reps is probably a bad idea when wanting to gain mass.. But I don't see the point in going hig rep when being as weak as I am now.

[SuffolkPunch]

I'm guessing your BF is simply higher than you think. You are 10kg heavier than me and I'm a little taller with about the same bench press max.

Omar Isuf has videos about both face pull and overhead shrug. The OH shrug engages the upper lats better and uses far less energy than conventional heavy shrugging.

[Jasonk282]

I btw do increase the weights, so I'm getting stronger. My bench is what gets stronger fastest. But getting stronger have never been my problem, putting on mass has. I can probably gain a lot by working more on my diet though, and going low reps is probably a bad idea when wanting to gain mass.. But I don't see the point in going hig rep when being as weak as I am now.

Mass comes from your diet. Not from the amount of reps you do.

I added 100 lbs on my bench in 4 months and only gained 20 lbs.

Went from 95 -195x5 and 165 to 185 lbs.

[Siddharth97]

Yup, my diet is ok, I think. Atm I'm actually gaining weight sloooowly and losing fat. And I'm using a tape measure, so it's pretty clear that I'm eating enough to actually gain muscle since everything else is growing. It's not like I'm cutting though, losing fat came mostly as a side effect of me eating more clean food instead of eating crap, and staying away from sugar. I got a new job 4 months ago, where I went from moving "all" day to sitting still most of the time, and so I had to change my diet a bit..


I'm not that tall, 179 cm-ish. I'm going to get a body scan one of these day, to see my fat %. I do have some fat, but people call me slim. But then again, I'm surrounded by overweight people that doesn't lift..

I'll include face pulls. Overhead shrugs I haven't even seen before, in my ~20 years of doing different sports. Imagine that.. I do regular shrugs from time to time though, what's the big difference?


How's that working out for size? Had a look at it and I'm probably missing something - but only 3x5 in bench? I use that many sets for my warm-up. My shoulder needs it.. haha 8-) I can get a pump by just one set, but I'm really careful when it comes to warming up.

I btw do increase the weights, so I'm getting stronger. My bench is what gets stronger fastest. But getting stronger have never been my problem, putting on mass has. I can probably gain a lot by working more on my diet though, and going low reps is probably a bad idea when wanting to gain mass.. But I don't see the point in going hig rep when being as weak as I am now.

If you're getting stronger and your diet is on point the size comes,shoulders aren't really the struggle for me as I said before. 3x5 is your working sets,that doesn't include whatever you need to do to warm up.

Now who told you that going low reps is a bad idea for gaining size? Its five reps per set here that we're talking about. And if you are getting stronger but not seeing size gains your problem is in your diet.

[larsfromars]

I'm guessing your BF is simply higher than you think. You are 10kg heavier than me and I'm a little taller with about the same bench press max.

Omar Isuf has videos about both face pull and overhead shrug. The OH shrug engages the upper lats better and uses far less energy than conventional heavy shrugging.

Yeah it probably is, but I do have some mass as well. I've actually been doing some kind of lifting/resistance training for the last 20 years..

Mass comes from your diet. Not from the amount of reps you do.

I added 100 lbs on my bench in 4 months and only gained 20 lbs.

Went from 95 -195x5 and 165 to 185 lbs.

I'm aware of that, but as I've said already - something's gotta be up when I'm growing all over, only not in the chest and shoulders. I mean, it's nothing new for me. But it's weird, because with a pump I look decent, but as soon as the pump is gone I look like crap. Haha it's sad, really.

If you're getting stronger and your diet is on point the size comes,shoulders aren't really the struggle for me as I said before. 3x5 is your working sets,that doesn't include whatever you need to do to warm up.

Now who told you that going low reps is a bad idea for gaining size? Its five reps per set here that we're talking about. And if you are getting stronger but not seeing size gains your problem is in your diet.

No one told me anything, but I've tried just about any program out there and I've gained mass and strength with just about every single one of them; but I've gained more mass with more reps.

[Benjinkan]

I found DB flyes useful for rounding out chest development - getting that squeeze, and consequently definition, in the center of your chest really helps it look bigger. Might be worth adding a couple of sets for a few weeks and see if it works for you

[larsfromars]

I found DB flyes useful for rounding out chest development - getting that squeeze, and consequently definition, in the center of your chest really helps it look bigger. Might be worth adding a couple of sets for a few weeks and see if it works for you

Not a big fan of flyes because of my shoulder, but I do cable cross flyes from time to time. Maybe I should do them more.. Do you feel like there's a noticeable difference between the two, btw?

[FaIIen]

Why don't you post pictures? It sounds like it's just in your head. Someone who benches 150 ought to look like they lift.

[Benjinkan]

Not a big fan of flyes because of my shoulder, but I do cable cross flyes from time to time. Maybe I should do them more.. Do you feel like there's a noticeable difference between the two, btw?

probably not a huge difference, I use DBs because I have a home gym, cables will do the job just as well.

[larsfromars]

Why don't you post pictures? It sounds like it's just in your head. Someone who benches 150 ought to look like they lift.

Pics? Meh.. My legs look like crap. I've got 2 slipped disks, so you can imagine how bad my squats and deadlifts are.

I do have a history of having a somewhat twisted self image, at least according to others, and when looking at pictures with me and other people in them it's obvious that I'm bigger etc. But it's hard to break loose from, and I'm not even sure if I want to, because imho the society's standards in a lot of areas are way too low, including when it comes to physical fitness. Average sucks. Off course I know that I'm bigger, stronger and more fit (usually, maybe not atm; gained some fat after changing jobs..haha) than probably 95% of the people in my city, but my goals are for myself, no one else. I mean, people are impressed by skinny dudes with sixpacks, but that's just as impressive as a fat chick with big tits..

probably not a huge difference, I use DBs because I have a home gym, cables will do the job just as well.

I'll cut down on the number of bench sets and replace them with cable cross for a while and see how it goes.

[Jasonk282]

Sounds like you have body image issues opie.

Honestly the only walkers that judge pics on here are the misc. Everyone else would be nothing but helpful