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  1. #421
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    Originally Posted by ashin1 View Post
    you brahs are legitimately making me interested in utilizing leverage...

    question... how important is location in terms of an overall factor when leveraging rental properties?
    There will always be a high demand for rentals in my community but not much economic growth happening in the town itself, are most returns in RE gained through rental income or market appreciation?




    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=173597121
    Since your eyes have been opened to the power of leverage, the best returns would of course come from capital appreciation.

    Not to say that an income generating property with limited appreciation is worthless though, certainly if you need regular cashflow or want to maintain a lifestyle with minimal risk it's a viable strategy, but i wouldnt see it as a wealth creator.
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  2. #422
    Registered User samsbolton's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by y0jimbo View Post
    Look it up anywhere on google? Investopedia, (gain-cost/cost)

    No where anywhere does 'cost' include borrowed funds, the only cost is the interest payments not the CAPITAL itself.

    If i deposit 20k and borrow 480k to purchase a 500k house and sell it for 520k (ignoring all the costs associated with it, as this will impact the return) the return on my investment is 100%.

    I started with 20k in my bank account and finished with 40k in my bank account, its that simple.


    Edit
    Reading back through the thread i think you seem looking at yield (which is based on total asset value) and ROA
    ROI is only on your own capital

    Edit
    After further research I think I can conclude you are correct (roi definition wikipedia) it looks like i am mixing up roi and roe, although at the same time wikipedia does have a few different ways of calculating it, so there may not be 1 true global definition of ROI
    Thank you, Repped
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  3. #423
    Registered User ashin1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by y0jimbo View Post
    Since your eyes have been opened to the power of leverage, the best returns would of course come from capital appreciation.

    Not to say that an income generating property with limited appreciation is worthless though, certainly if you need regular cashflow or want to maintain a lifestyle with minimal risk it's a viable strategy, but i wouldnt see it as a wealth creator.
    I like the DRIP plan because its important to start when you are young because you have plenty of time to let it grow, However if you have means of a high cash flow, it would be interesting to see how leveraging it would be with a mortgage, and getting a mortgage for me now shouldn't be hard considering i have assets, and could front a healthy down payment. my biggest hindrance in pulling the trigger on getting a mortgage is my location, there is something that frightens me about buying a home from a city 100's of miles from my home. maybe along the lines of lack of control, as in if something happens i can't be there right away kind of thing.
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  4. #424
    Registered User Gizzyhardcore's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Contradicting yourself AGAIN. Post 392. You ARENT including the borrowed funds as part of your investment.

    Real world example, go to a bank to borrow money for a second investment property. You already have one. They want to know the roi on that first property. According to your post 392, the roi is just based on the amount of cash you personally put in. Borrowed funds don't count, so that's what you tell the bank. 25%, 50% , whatever you want.

    If you mistyped post 392, just admit it. Save us all a lot of bother.
    dude, you are legit retarded.

    In post 392, I include both leveraged and un-leveraged examples.

    The sooner you admit you know nothing and know your role, the sooner you can learn from us, and maybe you will amount to something more than a paltry net worth $500k at 42 after years and years of investing.

    edit - stop speculating what the bank would think, have you ever dealt with a bank? they don't give a F what your yield is. All they care about is establishing a reliable value for the property so in the event you can't service the loan, they can sell it to recoup the loan (thats why they make you get a certified valuation) and then secondly, verifying you can service the loan.

    Do you really know how leverage works? you don't. It multiplies your returns. Do everything right and you will get double digit returns, 25, 50%. Do it wrong (ie miss a few weeks occupancy, maybe have to replace the roof or something) and get hugely negative ROI's.

    You said you where on min wage job

    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post

    5: I've earned mostly minimum wage my whole life but have a net worth a little above half a million $. I'm not rich but I'm very comfortable and know what I'm talking about. Could probably buy your whole country 5 times over.
    no offence dude, but min wage job strongly strongly correlates with low education. No wonder you have such a hard time grasping these concepts.

    Now your'e using semantics as the basics for your argument. Yes you might find ROE and ROI defined differently if you look hard enough on the internetz, but you by large the investment part of ROI defined as the amount you put in.

    Think of it another way, its like going 50/50 with someone on a 200k house that you plan to rent out. Your partner might tell you "spare me the drama and the ups and downs - you manage it, just give me a 5% return on my money, if you do better than that you can keep the profits.".

    You both put in $100k. Your investment is $100k. Its not $200k like you seem to think it is, its $100k.
    If you get really good tennants, keep maintenance costs down and make $20k. What is your ROI?

    You seem to think is calculated as $20k / $200k = 10%. Its not. Thats what it would be unleveraged, if you where in it 100% yourself

    Your ROI is on the money you put in. You put in $100k, You get $15k back after paying your friend $5k. Your ROI is 15%.

    Now lets say you have it vacant for 8 months and thus the rent is $6k. You pay your friend his 5% = $5k. You get whats left. $1k. Your ROI is 1%. Its not 3% ($6k/$200k) - thats what it would be if you where in it 100%. This is what leverage does.


    This is exactly the same as what happens when you borrow from the bank. Think of it as a business partner that wants a set guaranteed return.

    I know you are poorly educated, but there is no excuse to be this ignorant of basic concepts.
    Last edited by Gizzyhardcore; 03-01-2017 at 05:05 AM.
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  5. #425
    Registered User Gizzyhardcore's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ashin1 View Post
    you brahs are legitimately making me interested in utilizing leverage...

    question... how important is location in terms of an overall factor when leveraging rental properties?
    There will always be a high demand for rentals in my community but not much economic growth happening in the town itself, are most returns in RE gained through rental income or market appreciation?




    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=173597121
    I don't wanna call myself an expert on property investment


    but I'm an expert on property investment.


    I can take you though the pros and cons of property, using leverage, buying for yield vs cap growth.


    I have looked at literally 1000's of properties, done detailed due diligence on probably close to 100, and brought and sold a handful in the 15 years I have been property investing.
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  6. #426
    Registered User samsbolton's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gizzyhardcore View Post
    dude, you are legit retarded.

    In post 392, I include both leveraged and un-leveraged examples.

    The sooner you admit you know nothing and know your role, the sooner you can learn from us, and maybe you will amount to something more than a paltry net worth $500k at 42 after years and years of investing.
    Post 392
    "Lets look at how much you invested - how much of your own money you put it. This was $12,000. You get back $2,880 each year. So, by using leverage (ie the banks money at 4% to fund most of this project), you have multiplied your ROI. Your ROI here is $2,880 / $12,000 = 24%."

    This is RUBBISH

    You have included the mortgage payment as an expense that affects your roi, and yet somehow not included the 48k as part of the value of the investment.

    That makes NO sense. ZERO. Why not just borrow another 11k so you have just 1k of your own money invested, then tell the bank, or us, your roi is 200%. Or more. Brb 100% mortgage, none of your own equity, brb INFINITE roi!

    Hahahahahahahaha

    Everything you have typed since that post is just trying to weasel out of what you know is wrong. Sadly you are not enough of a man to admit that, and just resort to abuse 'you don't understand leverage only 500k net worth ' etc etc

    I'm not rich and never claimed to be. The only relevance of my net worth is in relation to what I have earned over 20 years of mostly minimum waged employment. 99% of people who have earned similarly over the years have close to no net worth AT ALL. I used leverage on my first two properties and in my business, and couldn't have done it any other way.

    Be a man. Correct your post 392. Never had a problem with a kiwi before, always found them to be proper men who know what's right and what isn't. You are the first I've known that doesn't, congratulations.
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  7. #427
    Registered User Gizzyhardcore's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Post 392
    "Lets look at how much you invested - how much of your own money you put it. This was $12,000. You get back $2,880 each year. So, by using leverage (ie the banks money at 4% to fund most of this project), you have multiplied your ROI. Your ROI here is $2,880 / $12,000 = 24%."

    This is RUBBISH

    You have included the mortgage payment as an expense that affects your roi, and yet somehow not included the 48k as part of the value of the investment.

    That makes NO sense. ZERO. Why not just borrow another 11k so you have just 1k of your own money invested, then tell the bank, or us, your roi is 200%. Or more. Brb 100% mortgage, none of your own equity, brb INFINITE roi!

    Hahahahahahahaha

    Everything you have typed since that post is just trying to weasel out of what you know is wrong. Sadly you are not enough of a man to admit that, and just resort to abuse 'you don't understand leverage only 500k net worth ' etc etc

    I'm not rich and never claimed to be. The only relevance of my net worth is in relation to what I have earned over 20 years of mostly minimum waged employment. 99% of people who have earned similarly over the years have close to no net worth AT ALL. I used leverage on my first two properties and in my business, and couldn't have done it any other way.

    Be a man. Correct your post 392. Never had a problem with a kiwi before, always found them to be proper men who know what's right and what isn't. You are the first I've known that doesn't, congratulations.
    dude, you really are clueless.

    in fact, google 100% mortgage, they do (or at least did) exist.

    your'e actually retarded. like legitimately.

    Can you, for the entertainment of the misc, do an ROI calculation on the following.

    Property Price $500k
    Funded by in investor deposit = 25%
    Mortgage 75%
    Mortgage annual interest rate 5%

    Weekly Rent $800.

    Can you tell us what the ROI on that is? Show us all... show that miscer who called you financially illiterate that he was wrong!
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  8. #428
    Registered User samsbolton's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gizzyhardcore View Post
    dude, you really are clueless.

    in fact, google 100% mortgage, they do (or at least did) exist.

    your'e actually retarded. like legitimately.

    Can you, for the entertainment of the misc, do an ROI calculation on the following.

    Property Price $500k
    Funded by in investor deposit = 25%
    Mortgage 75%
    Mortgage annual interest rate 5%

    Weekly Rent $800.

    Can you tell us what the ROI on that is? Show us all... show that miscer who called you financially illiterate that he was wrong!
    Not looking up exact figures but 375k at 5% is about 1700 pcm.

    Rent about 3400pcm

    So roi is 3400k * 12 (40,800) minus mortgage (20,400) = 20,400, then divide into the cost of the house (500k) so about a 4% roi.

    According to your post 392, however, the value of the house is irrelevant (lol what) it's merely that same 20,400 divided into what you put up (125k) or about 18%...

    Sick of you now, so I'll make you a bet. Go into a bank, film yourself, go up to a mortgage advisor, tell them you want to buy a property, and that you already have a property letted out with a 100% mortgage. When they ask you the roi, I want you to tell them:

    'It's infinite!'

    If you do this, I will take a perma ban. Srs.
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  9. #429
    Registered User jonnicola's Avatar
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    The grizzly guy is right

    If parents gift your deposit and the rest is mortgaged, your ROI is infinite because you haven't invested anything (and assuming the appreciate covers the interest cost)
    We're all gonna make it.
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  10. #430
    Registered User samsbolton's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jonnicola View Post
    The grizzly guy is right

    If parents gift your deposit and the rest is mortgaged, your ROI is infinite because you haven't invested anything (and assuming the appreciate covers the interest cost)
    Link me to any serious financial website, anywhere, that says that. Rep for life.
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  11. #431
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Link me to any serious financial website, anywhere, that says that. Rep for life.
    Just the simple formula?

    ROI = (Net Profit / Cost of Investment) x 100

    Inputting the numbers if profit is positive ie=1, then 1/0 is infinite.

    What I'm getting at is the cost of investment to person A is zero since it's a gift hence the ROI to A is infinite (infinite gains over zero cost) The cost of the mortgage and the interest (liability) is offset by the current value of the house (asset) and the future interest is offset by the appreciation in value.

    This is probably not what started the argument but just replying to the scenario a few pages back. Also if its not a gift this obviously doesn't hold.
    We're all gonna make it.
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  12. #432
    Registered User iceypain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Link me to any serious financial website, anywhere, that says that. Rep for life.
    if i have 10 bucks and i borrow 90 bucks to buy a 100 dollar asset, then sell it for 200 bucks. what is the return on my initial 10 bucks? for simplicity, assume immediate flip so no interest cost.
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  13. #433
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    Originally Posted by iceypain View Post
    if i have 10 bucks and i borrow 90 bucks to buy a 100 dollar asset, then sell it for 200 bucks. what is the return on my initial 10 bucks? for simplicity, assume immediate flip so no interest cost.
    Because that is relevant to buying a house over 25 years with a mortgage you pay interest on..
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  14. #434
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Because that is relevant to buying a house over 25 years with a mortgage you pay interest on..
    well yes, most people sell their homes well before their mortgages are fully paid off.
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  15. #435
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    Originally Posted by iceypain View Post
    if i have 10 bucks and i borrow 90 bucks to buy a 100 dollar asset, then sell it for 200 bucks. what is the return on my initial 10 bucks? for simplicity, assume immediate flip so no interest cost.
    Assuming you pay the loan back immediately after the return?

    200 - 90 = 110
    10 > 110 = 1000% ROI
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  16. #436
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    Originally Posted by iceypain View Post
    well yes, most people sell their homes well before their mortgages are fully paid off.
    Post 426. Using his example WITH a mortgage
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Yes but we are talking about the roi on THAT investment. Nothing to do with the opportunty cost of the equity you have tied up and what you could make with it if you stuck it somewhere else.. That's a different argument altogether. You ALWAYS break your roi down into individual investments because you want to know which is performing best. Idiot.
    I am talking about ROI on THAT investment - I'm saying that including unused equity in the calculation results in the exact same error as including borrowed funds for ROI.
    You can name-call if it makes you feel better but your math is still wrong. It's obvious if you take the argument to it's logical conclusion. Say you have $100,000, property cost A is $100,000, property cost B is also $100,000, rental income is $10,000 for either property, and simple interest is 5% due at year end.

    Scenario 1: Invest all $100,000 into property A, receive $10,000 income.
    Property (A) ROI = $10,000/$100,000 = 10%
    Total Return: $10,000

    Scenario 2: Borrow another $100,000 and invest in both properties
    Property (A) ROI = ($10,000 - $2,500 interest)/$50,000 = 15%
    Property (B) ROI = ($10,000 - $2,500 interest)/$50,000 = 15%
    Total ROI = ($20,000 - $5,000 interest)/$100,000 = 15%
    Total Return: $15,000

    ROI of A is the same as B is the same as both. And it remains the same even if you didn't invest in B.


    It makes zero sense to include the principal of the borrowed funds because it's not your money and not your cost by definition, and the implicit assumption is that when you do have to pay back the principal, you can simply sell the property and do so.

    Yes, in the real world there's risk and transaction fees and yadda yadda, but that is a completely DIFFERENT discussion than just the ROI.


    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    That makes NO sense. ZERO. Why not just borrow another 11k so you have just 1k of your own money invested, then tell the bank, or us, your roi is 200%. Or more. Brb 100% mortgage, none of your own equity, brb INFINITE roi!
    .... Well, yeah, that would be infinite ROI and a great idea if you could tolerate the risk. That's the risk/reward part of leverage, otherwise why would anyone do it if they could self-finance?
    Last edited by atterson; 03-01-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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    How ROI is calculated depends on the situation. samsbolton found some definition that would be used by financial analysts and tried to apply it to real estate. That is wrong. Including the loan value in the cost of investment is useful when comparing how effective corporations are with their money, but for real estate purposes the cost of investment is what came out of your pocket to purchase the property.
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Not looking up exact figures but 375k at 5% is about 1700 pcm.

    Rent about 3400pcm

    So roi is 3400k * 12 (40,800) minus mortgage (20,400) = 20,400, then divide into the cost of the house (500k) so about a 4% roi.

    According to your post 392, however, the value of the house is irrelevant (lol what) it's merely that same 20,400 divided into what you put up (125k) or about 18%...

    Sick of you now, so I'll make you a bet. Go into a bank, film yourself, go up to a mortgage advisor, tell them you want to buy a property, and that you already have a property letted out with a 100% mortgage. When they ask you the roi, I want you to tell them:

    'It's infinite!'

    If you do this, I will take a perma ban. Srs.
    lol, you just embarrassed yourself.

    tell me, why are you including mortgage payments, if you include the full cost of the investment at $500k. If you fully funded the full cost of the investment (ie the "Investment" part of the ROI), then why do you have a mortgage at all, if you fully funded it?

    Not to mention you are including capital payments on the mortgage instead of just interest. You are treating capital payments like the are an expense. They are not. They are building equity.

    The thing is here Sam, you are not only dumb, you are next level dumb. Not just dumb enough to realize "oh right I am wrong, I see that now, thanks for educating me", nope, you are so dumb, you can't even see why you are wrong.

    Like in this example, if you use $500k as the value in the ROI calc, its means you have funded the whole thing yourself, so then why are you including mortgage payments???????

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    Originally Posted by atterson View Post
    I am talking about ROI on THAT investment - I'm saying that including unused equity in the calculation results in the exact same error as including borrowed funds for ROI.
    You can name-call if it makes you feel better but your math is still wrong. It's obvious if you take the argument to it's logical conclusion. Say you have $100,000, property cost A is $100,000, property cost B is also $100,000, rental income is $10,000 for either property, and simple interest is 5% due at year end.

    Scenario 1: Invest all $100,000 into property A, receive $10,000 income.
    Property (A) ROI = $10,000/$100,000 = 10%
    Total Return: $10,000

    Scenario 2: Borrow another $100,000 and invest in both properties
    Property (A) ROI = ($10,000 - $2,500 interest)/$50,000 = 15%
    Property (B) ROI = ($10,000 - $2,500 interest)/$50,000 = 15%
    Total ROI = ($20,000 - $5,000 interest)/$100,000 = 15%
    Total Return: $15,000

    ROI of A is the same as B is the same as both. And it remains the same even if you didn't invest in B.


    It makes zero sense to include the principal of the borrowed funds because it's not your money and not your cost by definition, and the implicit assumption is that when you do have to pay back the principal, you can simply sell the property and do so.

    Yes, in the real world there's risk and transaction fees and yadda yadda, but that is a completely DIFFERENT discussion than just the ROI.



    .... Well, yeah, that would be infinite ROI and a great idea if you could tolerate the risk. That's the risk/reward part of leverage, otherwise why would anyone do it if they could self-finance?
    dude he won't understand that. He said before he has a minimum wage job with minimal education. Hes stupid, but actually next level stupid because he can't see why hes wrong, even when its flashed in his face in the most obvious plain as day examples
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    Originally Posted by Gizzyhardcore View Post
    You said you where on min wage job
    no offence dude, but min wage job strongly strongly correlates with low education. No wonder you have such a hard time grasping these concepts.
    this explains so much
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    Originally Posted by DumpsterFire View Post
    On top of my business which I run full time I own a bunch of vending machines at different locations. Seriously the easiest money I've ever made. I stock them full once a month and collect the money. Make a 50 percent or more profit on every item
    Howd you get into this? Where did you buy your machines from? All drink vending or different products?
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    Lol. OP is a civil servant. shocker. the only people in cuckada making any money.

    must spend 60-70 hours a week to make that kind of OT in the chithole hospital breathing in the smell of old peoples chit. just saying.
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    surprised ashin didn't mention the ultimate passive income machine in cuckada.

    be a Syrian refugee, have 10 kids. profit.

    70k a year passive income. hours worked: zero.
    You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told you're a god or a total bastard. The iron always kicks you the real deal. It's the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. I have found it to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But 200 pounds is always 200 pounds.
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    Originally Posted by atterson View Post
    I am talking about ROI on THAT investment - I'm saying that including unused equity in the calculation results in the exact same error as including borrowed funds for ROI.
    You can name-call if it makes you feel better but your math is still wrong. It's obvious if you take the argument to it's logical conclusion. Say you have $100,000, property cost A is $100,000, property cost B is also $100,000, rental income is $10,000 for either property, and simple interest is 5% due at year end.

    Scenario 1: Invest all $100,000 into property A, receive $10,000 income.
    Property (A) ROI = $10,000/$100,000 = 10%
    Total Return: $10,000

    Scenario 2: Borrow another $100,000 and invest in both properties
    Property (A) ROI = ($10,000 - $2,500 interest)/$50,000 = 15%
    Property (B) ROI = ($10,000 - $2,500 interest)/$50,000 = 15%
    Total ROI = ($20,000 - $5,000 interest)/$100,000 = 15%
    Total Return: $15,000

    ROI of A is the same as B is the same as both. And it remains the same even if you didn't invest in B.


    It makes zero sense to include the principal of the borrowed funds because it's not your money and not your cost by definition, and the implicit assumption is that when you do have to pay back the principal, you can simply sell the property and do so.

    Yes, in the real world there's risk and transaction fees and yadda yadda, but that is a completely DIFFERENT discussion than just the ROI.



    .... Well, yeah, that would be infinite ROI and a great idea if you could tolerate the risk. That's the risk/reward part of leverage, otherwise why would anyone do it if they could self-finance?
    Did not read

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    Originally Posted by Gizzyhardcore View Post
    lol, you just embarrassed yourself.

    tell me, why are you including mortgage payments, if you include the full cost of the investment at $500k. If you fully funded the full cost of the investment (ie the "Investment" part of the ROI), then why do you have a mortgage at all, if you fully funded it?

    Not to mention you are including capital payments on the mortgage instead of just interest. You are treating capital payments like the are an expense. They are not. They are building equity.

    The thing is here Sam, you are not only dumb, you are next level dumb. Not just dumb enough to realize "oh right I am wrong, I see that now, thanks for educating me", nope, you are so dumb, you can't even see why you are wrong.

    Like in this example, if you use $500k as the value in the ROI calc, its means you have funded the whole thing yourself, so then why are you including mortgage payments???????

    Your first paragraph makes no sense. Read it 3 times. In the uk it's the overall cost of the mortgage including principal repayment that is the basis of your roi, don't know why. Wouldn't argue with anyone who only counted the interest, just the way we do it.

    So you haven't found a single source to say you don't include borrowed funds, and you won't film yourself telling a mortgage advisor you have an infinite rate of return, even to get me perma banned. You can keep posting silly gifs as if you have proved something, you aren't impressing anyone.
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    Originally Posted by Gizzyhardcore View Post
    dude he won't understand that. He said before he has a minimum wage job with minimal education. Hes stupid, but actually next level stupid because he can't see why hes wrong, even when its flashed in his face in the most obvious plain as day examples
    Playing the man and not the ball always mean you have lost the argument. You can't provide any evidence from anywhere on the entire internet for anything you have said. I have linked you to my source and could link a dozen more. Get stuffed.
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    Originally Posted by samsbolton View Post
    Playing the man and not the ball always mean you have lost the argument. You can't provide any evidence from anywhere on the entire internet for anything you have said. I have linked you to my source and could link a dozen more. Get stuffed.
    b

    Sam, I know you're fn stupid, you keep proving this again and again. But at least give me a glimmer of hope....

    Can't you see how wrong you are? - if you use 500k as your investment, then you don't need a mortgage - you have fully funded it yourself.
    So why then are you also including mortgage costs? - if you fully fund it, you don't have a mortgage.

    And don't use this "it's how we do it in the UK" thing, I worked in the UK 2.5 years. It's not the "UK" , it's you - you don't understand basic financial concepts.

    Everyone in this thread is telling you you are wrong and mocking you. I made you do that ROI example cause I knew you had no idea how to do it lol.
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    I think the answer to all of this is to look at it like this:

    Whose money is it

    What is the ROI on each persons money

    Ie
    Parents give Ashin "the disappointment" Simpson 50k. ROI on the 50k is whatever, didn't read, say 10%.

    Ashin has a mortgage to pay 25k off, whatever amount, didn't read.

    His return is only 5% or whatever, due to interest costs.

    His parents give "the disappointment" their ROI as a gift. (Yes it's in his name makes no difference).

    "The disappointments" total ROI (including the gift) is therefore 8.7%

    Simple really.
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    Originally Posted by Hammersia View Post
    I think the answer to all of this is to look at it like this:

    Whose money is it

    What is the ROI on each persons money

    Ie
    Parents give Ashin "the disappointment" Simpson 50k. ROI on the 50k is whatever, didn't read, say 10%.

    Ashin has a mortgage to pay 25k off, whatever amount, didn't read.

    His return is only 5% or whatever, due to interest costs.

    His parents give "the disappointment" their ROI as a gift. (Yes it's in his name makes no difference).

    "The disappointments" total ROI (including the gift) is therefore 8.7%

    Simple really.
    Lol I had no idea people where this fn stupid.

    Retard miscer pops into a thread and comes up with his own way to define ROI.

    No wonder so many of you are broke paycheck to paycheck peasants trying to look the part but with debt up to your eyeballs
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