^^I'll add to the above, the same goes for me personally and training.
I asked a question yesterday on here about training when I didn't feel 100%.
After asking the question, I realized that the motivation for asking it was actually because I wanted some kind of 'permission' to go in and train... as if I should ever NEED permission. To me, that signals it's NOT a good idea. I should only ever train if I personally feel 100% mentally OK with it. It might be OK to not feel physically 100% ALL THE TIME, but if you're not mentally into something and it's going to cause you guilt if you don't perform to 100% capacity, then you shouldnt do it... I shouldn't do it... it's not helpful in recovering.
Sadly these are realizations only YOU can have, which is why I said you personally need to assess where you're at. Try to be mindful of your actual emotions and motivations for doing things. Are you doing them for healthy, normal reasons? Are you going them out of guilt? Shame?
With food, you need to consider MORE than just what looks good.
For example, for me right now, I consider a balance of what i'm craving, what nutrition I need, and how it'll make me feel.
I might crave two beers and 5 slices of pizza, but if i'm about to walk to work in the morning ,that's probably a bad idea. Does that mean I can't eat foods I enjoy? No... it means you make certain compromises when you have to... maybe you don't get to have exactly what you want all the time, but you should still get enjoyment when you can.
So to your question, yes you should "give a fukk", but only to the extent that it helps you feel and perform better physically and mentally. If you're trying to decide between a piece of cake or a carrot, and your reasoning behind eating a carrot is that you'll be so guilt-ridden by the cake that you'll hate yourself or restrict the next day... then yeah, I'd say you need to eat the cake and learn to be OK with it, because clearly you're in the wrong state of mind.
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04-12-2017, 08:57 AM #1051
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Last edited by AdamWW; 04-12-2017 at 09:02 AM.
"When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-12-2017, 09:05 AM #1052
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04-12-2017, 09:10 AM #1053
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04-12-2017, 10:02 AM #1054
Alright dudes, lots of good discussion in here and I hope I can add value.
Adam I know exactly how you feel.
1. You are taking time off the gym and honoring your body. If you actually needed/should go into the gym, the motivation to go would be there. In the past when you were bulking, you were not in the same state you are now: overtrained (yes 100% you can and probably are), under-rested, hormonally a mess and psychologically drained. You have conditioned your body to not only physiologically feel like cacka but also fear hitting the gym because you've done it without enough resources, nutrients and rest for so long. You are definitely overtrained and your biomarkers for it would flag as such. If you want to debate the science of overtraining, I will gladly give you all the links and studies in the world of elite athletes in weight-restrained sports psychologically and physiologically feeling like you are... so you are not "not normal."
2. I was forced to take almost 2 months off the gym and it was the best thing in my recovery. Ate like a human, sat at a desk all day, and fought a lot of the exercise/food fears BECAUSE of my job and housing situation. I wish sooooo badly I had taken the months off long before... hormonally I started to feel better about 4 months after the long spurt away from the gym, and my mindset in the gym shifted from "do as much as possible" to "do enough to provide a stimulus to get stronger." I would HIGHLY suggest staying away from the gym if I were you for now.
2b. If you do keep taking days off, you WILL feel tired and most likely want to sleeep for days on end and never feel rested and fully awake. I could be wrong and you will feel awesome, BUT a lot of us who recovered went through the "make up" stage for all the fatigue and hormonal damage we induced and it sucks... but if you do not over-caffeinate (I advice no caffeine to give your adrenals a break) you will come through it feeling better than ever.
Like I have told you in PMs, it is important to try and look upon your situation and self and thoughts from a third-party perspective. Pretend like you are viewing a movie of yourself and see it as rationally as you can.
Plus, with you, you need to learn that training is to adapt and grow and not to make you tired. Just do burpeees and hill sprints all day if being tired means you had a good workout.
Good realization though man.
For me personally, I normalized my food intake and now see no reason to cut because I do not have a poor body image and my sense of self is derived elsewhere. Make fixing your food obsession the goal first and foremost, and watch as you realize you just have a VERY distorted perception of yourself.
Normalize food first man... it has been a day lol Patience brah. You won't pull bishes if you complain about your belt being tight anyway. Nobody cares besides you and I prefer to have a healthy mindset rather than ripped abs.Been playing with shafts and balls since '75.
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04-12-2017, 10:32 AM #1055
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Thanks for addressing my comments, I know it probably was a lot to read through. I'd like to just comment back on a few points because I am in strong agreement with them, and to add some flavor.
>>>Yes, I am overtrained, or at least I believe it is very likely. Although my testosterone, thyroid, and some of the other more typical markers for overtraining might be 'normal', I have other markers which are clearly not: low-ish white blood cells, red blood cell, and platelet counts... lower BP, low resting HR, etc. I also have been experiencing more premature heartbeats than usual since being leaner for this long, which is likely a combination of lack of proper minerals as well as poor sleep from sleep-regulating hormones not being adequate. Nothing that will kill me right now, but it's a bad sign and all the more reason to not strain myself.
>>> I agree also on the time off concept. The problem with me and the gym, vs say me and going out for golf matches, comes down to motivation. I golf because I love the sport, I love the social aspects, and I love the competition. When I go out there, I give no thought to how many calories I burn, so I have absolutely no second-thoughts about the decision to go play. The gym, on the other hand, still carries a direct connection with my ED: the burning of calories, earning food, that kind of thing. For that reason, it is likely not a good idea for the time being. Not to mention, I don't think my joints/CNS can handle it right now... hence why I cannot sleep well and feel fatigued all the time. I'm not recovering.
>>> Finally, the 'make up stage' you refer to, I hope, will not impact my job or other aspects of my life. I have actually considered taking a week off of work, using my vacation time even, SIMPLY to focus on recovering, reading, sleeping, and trying to confront my problems. Haven't jumped the gun just yet, but it's something I am strongly considering.
Being honest with myself does not come easy, and I know many of us also struggle with it. We often believe that our current state isn't 'that bad', when truly it is. If you're young-ish, well fed, slept, and healthy, you SHOULD feel good, and the question of 'can I handle a workout' wouldn't be in the picture.. you'd be able to make the decision without having to question it so much."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-12-2017, 10:45 AM #1056
Anytime dude. I am here to help.
>>>Yes, I am overtrained, or at least I believe it is very likely. Although my testosterone, thyroid, and some of the other more typical markers for overtraining might be 'normal', I have other markers which are clearly not: low-ish white blood cells, red blood cell, and platelet counts... lower BP, low resting HR, etc. I also have been experiencing more premature heartbeats than usual since being leaner for this long, which is likely a combination of lack of proper minerals as well as poor sleep from sleep-regulating hormones not being adequate. Nothing that will kill me right now, but it's a bad sign and all the more reason to not strain myself.
I also would like to ask.. you say you are hyper-metabolic but then I read you do yoga, golf often, stay limber and active, fidget, etc... do think you're just compensating with high NEAT? Sometimes in my recovery I would like everywhere else for an excuse besides embracing what I intuitively knew to be true. Enjoy eating more and continue to challenge your food fears man! It is fun.
>>> I agree also on the time off concept. The problem with me and the gym, vs say me and going out for golf matches, comes down to motivation. I golf because I love the sport, I love the social aspects, and I love the competition. When I go out there, I give no thought to how many calories I burn, so I have absolutely no second-thoughts about the decision to go play. The gym, on the other hand, still carries a direct connection with my ED: the burning of calories, earning food, that kind of thing. For that reason, it is likely not a good idea for the time being. Not to mention, I don't think my joints/CNS can handle it right now... hence why I cannot sleep well and feel fatigued all the time. I'm not recovering.
>>> Finally, the 'make up stage' you refer to, I hope, will not impact my job or other aspects of my life. I have actually considered taking a week off of work, using my vacation time even, SIMPLY to focus on recovering, reading, sleeping, and trying to confront my problems. Haven't jumped the gun just yet, but it's something I am strongly considering.
You will also see that the expectations your ED puts on you to be perfect and meticulous has carried over into other facets of your life and causes a distorted perception there as well. You could probably dial back your perceived effort and be just as productive, laid back and focused as when you are "in the zone" and trying to bust everything out as quickly as possible.
A lot of my ED recovery revolved around learning how to tone back my efforts and eliminate the all-or-nothing mindset. It has helped me be more chill and stress free and I find I can work for longer periods now and get more done in the long term without excess stress.
Being honest with myself does not come easy, and I know many of us also struggle with it. We often believe that our current state isn't 'that bad', when truly it is. If you're young-ish, well fed, slept, and healthy, you SHOULD feel good, and the question of 'can I handle a workout' wouldn't be in the picture.. you'd be able to make the decision without having to question it so much.Been playing with shafts and balls since '75.
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04-12-2017, 10:54 AM #1057
I just love reading all the advice, comments, personal feelings/thoughts etc ...
It's extremely helpful ..
Every time I read a post, I literally go "wow" in my head .. "wow, I didn't think of it from that point of view" .. or "yes, that's exactly what I'm going through as well. maybe less severe, but yes, wow!"
Cheers guys!
MTInstagram: Mos_Toorani
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04-12-2017, 11:04 AM #1058
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04-12-2017, 11:14 AM #1059
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@sonny
Yes, I am 100% committed to fixing my issues and I hope my ability to write down these observations shows that to some degree. Whatever it takes, even time off from the gym, dedicating myself to rest, normalized eating even if that means an adjustment period of eating more calories than my body needs to maintain weight so I can normalize my body, I am willing to do it.
To be clear, I am NOT saying I am hypermetabolic. There have been periods where I have wondered if perhaps I am, but definitely not saying it is something I am dealing with. I think more likely than not it is purely increased NEAT due to any number of reasons, and what I need to do is simply 'out-eat the NEAT'. Pardon the cheeky joke
Anyway, yes, the exercise I do right now is more to feel better: i massage sore muscle, I stretch them, I try to keep good circulation, but that's it. I'm not trying to 'do whatever it takes' or anything like that.
Social aspects of golf are great, and as you said it is during those periods where I feel the most at ease. It's far easier for me to sit down to a post-round meal and a pint with buddies than it is for me to do so on my own... in time hopefully I can completely self-regulate, but for now I need these social outlets to help the process.
That;s a good idea to let my boss know about general medical things impacting my work-presence in the short term. I've been considering having such a conversation with him, actually, so I might do that in the coming days just to get it out there. I'd rather him be prepared than surprised, for sure.
I can relate to your all-or-nothing mentality in the ED... I deal with this as well. In certain aspects of my life it actually helps me be more productive and do great work, but when applied to things like exercise and food, it is very unhealthy. Just another thing to try and control and obsess over.
One thing I have not mentioned that I really, really need to work on is not only being OK with the idea of gaining fat, but simply not thinking about it. I personally don't feel that it is the best idea for my own recovery to go plan out a day of overeating or a specific calorie number... I need let my body just decide for me. One thing that REALLY stops me up right now is the fact that my cravings and appetite are so large sometimes it feels ridiculous. I've mentioned it before, but the idea of eating a large, calorie-dense meal and then wanting MORE within the next hour seem totally inhuman to me. I absolutely am going to beat it and get through it, but I have to be honest and admit it is HARD... perhaps THE hardest part of my current recovery mindset.
What I want right now in regard to the above (questioning my cravings) or what the 'goal' is, is to simply not second-guess it even for a second. Even if that means I eat a whole large pizza and STILL feel hunger one hour later, I need to accept that everything happens for a reason. If I weren't under-nourished or over-lean, I would NOT still feel hungry. It might make me bloated, uncomfortable, and even a bit guilty for the time being, but it has to happen. I'm getter softer... the abs are blurring... but it needs to be something I experience if I ever want to stop the cycle.Last edited by AdamWW; 04-12-2017 at 11:23 AM.
"When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-12-2017, 11:28 AM #1060
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04-12-2017, 11:29 AM #1061
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04-12-2017, 11:44 AM #1062
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04-12-2017, 11:46 AM #1063
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04-12-2017, 03:25 PM #1064
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I feel like I've been posting almost 'too' much in here, but yet again, I'd like to share an observation in case anyone else can benefit from it.
Always keep in mind 'cumulative energy debt', not 'daily energy debt'.
Case-in-point from my own experience: when I have a high-activity day, in some cases I end up way, way below my calorie requirements by the time the day is over. It may not be intentional, in fact I know it isn't for me, but the effect is the same: you end up with a net-total deficit. The effect of this over time is similar to cumulative sleep deprivation in that you might not notice the acute effects, but rather notice the total sum of your deficit/deprivation over time as you slowly build up fatigue; it comes on slowly, but eventually blows up in your face. When it comes to weight, it's the total loss over time... with sleep, it'd be the total tiredness you accumulate over time.
Why is this important? It's important because when you lack nutrition on a chronic level, you may be tempted to reflect on only recent trends or circumstances in your eating. Thoughts like "I don't know why I'd be so hungry, I ate a ton this morning", or "I haven't even been active THIS WEEK, so why should I be eating more?" may come to mind, but they ignore the deep-seeded lack of nutrition your body has sustained. If you damage your body with hard work and do not replenish what you lose, it's going to suffer. Sometimes you can get away with it if the problem only happens once or twice over a short period, but if you CHRONICALLY do this like many of us do, it adds up.
This is why for many of us (myself included), there always 'feels like' a lack of justification in eating so much when we're NOT active... or to not listen to hunger cues if our body tells us to hibernate for a day. But if you went on a long hike/camping trip for 3 days and I didn't properly fuel yourself, and on top of that you chronically undereat even a little for an extended period, you're going to feel hungry no matter how little you move around.
Think of it this way, what if for something like 100 days, your net calorie deficit was something like 300 calories per day on average, even though you had SOME days where you ate HUGE amounts of food. You'd end up losing a LOT of weight. Your body isn't dumb... it creates the fat burning and muscle wasting environment depending on energy, not how full your stomach feels (this is why high-satiety foods can be harmless in the long term if you continue to use them to stuff yourself in an attempt to avoid calories). Even if you did nothing for a single day, if you're lean or nutrient-deprived enough, your body looks for stored energy sources to satisfy what it needs... and if you don't have it on hand, you have to eat. I don't care if you're doing a grueling full body session or not, you still need those calories and that nutrition. If you didn't, you wouldn't feel hungry. Period.
Bottom-line, you need to think about the TOTAL effect of what you've done. Small, consistent deprivation over months and years is often hard to notice, but it's effects can be very, very strong. Ultimately the only answer is to listen to the signs from your body, feed it what it needs, and don't try to justify using math or logic because your memory will often be clouded by stupid, superficial, and delusional thoughts fueled by the ED itself."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-12-2017, 08:55 PM #1065
^^^ Strong post there Adam, strong post! (on spread).
Again, for me, it seems that the issue i'm facing currently is justifying the amount i eat.. As you said above, energy expenditure etc.
I'm fighting the fight, that's for sure .. My brain keeps on insisting that I lower my intake on rest days or even on workout days, believe it or not. But the foodie in me doesn't give a toss.
On another note, have you guys ever skipped work to hit the gym? I've been on that kick for the past couple of weeks believe it or not. Just way too excited to hit the weights .. I'm sure it's not ED related right?
MTInstagram: Mos_Toorani
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04-12-2017, 09:13 PM #1066
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Skipped work? Pretty sure people get fired that way
I've worked out in the middle of the day plenty of times, if that's what you mean, but only if time permits.
And it's impossible for anyone but you to say, really, if your excitement about the gym is a manifestation or extension of the ED vs a genuine desire to get stronger.
If you're using the gym to justify food, then yes, it sounds like ED-driven behavior..."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-12-2017, 09:20 PM #1067
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04-12-2017, 09:22 PM #1068
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04-12-2017, 09:27 PM #1069
Yes, I know! haha!
I had to use the extra days from the previous year or else they would have gone down the drain!
^^^ That's the problem when it's only you and your manager running at entire department/unit Too much workload/stress to the extent you have no time to plan a proper vacation. Hence, you get leftover days from the previous year that you NEED to use or lose it
MTInstagram: Mos_Toorani
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04-13-2017, 07:10 AM #1070
"I really, really need to work on is not only being OK with the idea of gaining fat, but simply not thinking about it"
@AdamWW
I'm right there with you on this one, it has my ED voice SCREAMING at me constantly. It gets so bad that I start to second guess myself, and I have all kinds of conflicting thoughts that start filling my head, along with massive feelings of insecurity and self doubt. "What am I doing, I'm letting myself go" "All I'm doing is getting fatter, not better" etc etc...
I have been copying and pasting different quotes that I relate to and find inspiring that help to bring me back to reality. I refer to them whenever I need to for reassurance that I'm making the right change. Do I really want to go back to stupid amounts of cardio, restricting my food intake, feeling like crap 90% of the time, craving food constantly, no strength in the gym and little outside of it? No, that was awful. Sometimes the ED voice wins, and I feel like garbage.
But each time I am able to say and FEEL even briefly "This is the new me, the better me" and come back to reality even for a little while, I'm grateful and feel like I'm doing the right thing.
Again, reading all of the stories, and shared experiences in this thread helps, thank you everyone.Lee Priest for President
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04-13-2017, 08:22 AM #1071
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I highly encourage writing down your goals, saving quotes/messages that inspire you, and even meditating on subjects or thought-provoking things that help you feel comfort in difficult periods during recovery. I do this all the time... it's very helpful. Glad you are finding value in it!
I also save inspirational videos on YouTube (some of which I shared above) on the topic of recovery. It seems to help me 'reset' when I start to inadvertently stumble back into old habits, no matter how small they are."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-13-2017, 08:24 AM #1072
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In Recovery News: Last night was the first night I have had in weeks where I feel totally, completely rested.
I slept deeply, had moderately vivid dreams (sign of deep REM sleep), and woke up feeling refreshed. It makes SUCH a remarkable difference.
I experimented pre-bed last night with consuming a little bit of carbs and protein to see if it'd 'do' anything. Obviously I cannot say yet if that's the only cause, but for now, I feel fantastic.
Looking forward to an energetic and stress-free (well, relatively!) day.
Cheers everyone. Almost friday!"When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-13-2017, 08:50 AM #1073
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04-13-2017, 09:00 AM #1074
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To add to my issue, my acid reflux makes me more likely to avoid any food whatsoever prior to laying down, which is kind of problem right now because I do get hungry within about an hour of sleeping almost without fail. What I did was blend two frozen bananas with almond milk, add some cocoa powder and peanut butter, and blend it up for some mock-ice cream...
Basically something that wouldn't be so much to give me issues with my stomach but something that could at least give me some calories prior to sleeping. Seems to work well"When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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04-13-2017, 01:05 PM #1075
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04-13-2017, 01:27 PM #1076
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04-13-2017, 01:43 PM #1077
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04-13-2017, 01:43 PM #1078
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Yeah, people missed the part where he did it because he was "feeling fat," too.
As an aside I'm beginning to think I may need to check into this group from time to time. I have a pretty good and healthy relationship with food and eating but I'm coming to terms with the fact that I have pretty serious body dysmorphia.***THE AFRO POPE: "The Man Who Never Gets Mad Online"***
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04-13-2017, 02:00 PM #1079
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04-13-2017, 02:02 PM #1080
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***THE AFRO POPE: "The Man Who Never Gets Mad Online"***
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