Any engineers? Weighted squat vs overhead press (measuring spinal compression)

[rocknrollguitar]

Say you have a 30kg Atlas stone in hand and you need to perform squat and overhead press..


When you push the stone overhead your spine is compressed with no relief into the ground, and..

When you sqaut you pull the stone up, in hand, via your legs and although the weight is the same and the spine is still compressed, it is compressed to a lesser degree as instead of pushing yourself between the stone and the Earth, you are pulling the stone away from the Earth with the freedom of upward movement..?


Sorry, my head hurts, maybe I'm just an idiot, but is this actually a thing?



Edit: After thinking about is some more I think overhead press may push the spine into compression but squats don't because they are leveraged off the hips.

[SuffolkPunch]

No

Force due to gravity F = mg

So force is entirely determined by mass. (g is a constant = 9.8 m.s-2). For a fixed mass, the force is fixed.

Any time you bear a weight in your arms or on your shoulders (same thing ultimately), you are compressing the spine because it's the only way of supporting that weight.

The above assumes you remain perfectly still. In practice you don't. And it gets more complicated if the weight is not in line with your center of gravity (you get moments and hence sideways forces on the spine).

In the case of holding something overhead, the effect of small movements is magnified because of the longer lever - so the weight moving around has more of an effect on stabilisation needs.

[rocknrollguitar]

No

Force due to gravity F = mg

So force is entirely determined by mass. (g is a constant = 9.8 m.s-2). For a fixed mass, the force is fixed.

Any time you bear a weight in your arms or on your shoulders (same thing ultimately), you are compressing the spine because it's the only way of supporting that weight.

The above assumes you remain perfectly still. In practice you don't. And it gets more complicated if the weight is not in line with your center of gravity (you get moments and hence sideways forces on the spine).

In the case of holding something overhead, the effect of small movements is magnified because of the longer lever - so the weight moving around has more of an effect on stabilisation needs.

Mmm so regardless of pushing/pulling arm action, the weight bearing arms are fixated on the shoulders thus the spine is compressed between the stone and the Earth regardless of arm/leg extension, although it does kind of seem like the sqauts are less prominant in compression it may be due to those reasons you mentioned of compounded leverage/stability requirements in overhead press.

Hmm.. I suppose one could sit on a leg machine, but out the window goes your compound core excercise, ahh the spine, perhaps it's just the crux of us all.

[SuffolkPunch]

Yep, everything goes through the spine and it's tough if you have to avoid loading it.

Leg press transfers the end points of the force vector to your feet vs. your lower back. This is why people with lower back issues can still aggravate it using leg press.

[Heisman2]

Is there a specific reason you are asking this question? also, look into a belt squat if you need to avoid spinal compression.

[rocknrollguitar]

Yep, everything goes through the spine and it's tough if you have to avoid loading it.

Leg press** the end points of the force vector to your feet vs. your lower back. This is why people with lower back issues can still aggravate it using leg press.

Mmm, leg transfers seem a highly artificial excercise, I think using at atlas stone one could place the stone over the top on their legs when sqautting and hoist it up (at least initially) from there and once standing could clasp the stone against the belly/pelvis to minimize spinal load, this may be enough for me and I thought I would share this idea since you share good info to me also, cheers.

Is there a specific reason you are asking this question? also, look into a belt squat if you need to avoid spinal compression.

Well when I reply honestly people sometimes think I'm wierd but I'm basically a skinny dude (although thickening) and I am into minimalist ancient weight lifting methods so I often don't have the luxury of 5kg increments, as such I try to take it easy on my spine when lifting, I also don't like to think too technically when lifting and just focus on creating maximum intensity, so I like to take extra time while not training to revise what suits my goals, and finally I just generally am aware and cautious of my spine and do not take my current quality of life for granted, I feel my spine does not like the loading too much.

[SuffolkPunch]

If you have back issues, an atlas stone sounds like a pretty bad idea... although you can partly rest it against your stomach or belt, you are still bearing most of the weight with your hands -> shoulders -> spine. Also, the center of gravity of a round object is going to be some horizontal distance away from your center of mass - hence there will be a lever moment putting lateral forces on your spine too.

Hip belt is a good option.

[rocknrollguitar]

If you have back issues, an atlas stone sounds like a pretty bad idea... although you can partly rest it against your stomach or belt, you are still bearing most of the weight with your hands -> shoulders -> spine. Also, the center of gravity of a round object is going to be some horizontal distance away from your center of mass - hence there will be a lever moment putting lateral forces on your spine too.

Hip belt is a good option.

It is great but I would avoid it if I could due to my minimalist philosophy, I try to only train with stones and the plane of the Earth.

I would say that holding the fixed load through the spine isn't too big an issue but the issue is how heavy the loads can become on the spine when additionally subject to trajectional forces against gravity i.e. (rising from sqaut) although it is true that on the second half of the sqaut it is indeed spine that is holding most of the weight and not thighs, I would make the case that the trajectory of the mass has already been placed in motion to a degree where gravitional excess load is close-ish to nought and combined with limited range of movement this may be ok.


But we'll see no doubt..

[SuffolkPunch]

Hmm, it feels like you are trying to make the physics fit your philosophy rather than the other way around.

I doubt that upward acceleration increases the total loading by much and would expect the the extra moment on the spine from holding a stone to exceed that. People made their weights barbell shape rather than spherical for a good reason. It's a design that has stood the test of time.

[rocknrollguitar]

Hmm, it feels like you are trying to make the physics fit your philosophy rather than the other way around.

I doubt that upward acceleration increases the total loading by much and would expect the the extra moment on the spine from holding a stone to exceed that. People made their weights barbell shape rather than spherical for a good reason. It's a design that has stood the test of time.

It may feel that way but I'm not, if something doesn't fit it doesn't fit, no point in hiding from it.

Stand on a scale and lift your barbell, you may be suprised, whether that moment the spine holds the fixed weight is good or bad I don't know, you may have a point.

People made weights barbell shape rather than spherical because it stood the test of time? Mankind has lifted stones since ancient mesopotamia all the way to strongman competitions today so for this particular discourse I think the stone "wins".

[SuffolkPunch]

People may have lifted stone because they can easily be found.

However, once they have a barbell, you'll find successful lifters use that and not the awkward shape stones because it produces the best results.

Strongmen only lift stones because stonelifting is a strongman event. If it wasn't, they wouldn't.

There is no mystical forgotten magic about stones.

[rocknrollguitar]

People may have lifted stone because they can easily be found.

However, once they have a barbell, you'll find successful lifters use that and not the awkward shape stones because it produces the best results.

Strongmen only lift stones because stonelifting is a strongman event. If it wasn't, they wouldn't.

There is no mystical forgotten magic about stones.

Oh come on now, you do you and I'll do me.

The mysterical forgotten magic about stones does exist actually, olympic weightlifters can only lift those weights from one angle, get them to hold something out to the side or at an angle and the strongman would likely take dominion, this means it's way more practical in real life scenario's outside the confines of regulated sports lifting which is your implied safe space and high ground.

Come out into the real world and you will know the ancient wisdom of your forefathers, young man.

[SuffolkPunch]

Ah, it's the old 'functional training' discussion without actually saying what the function is. If you want to lift awkward shape objects then carry on. Most people have goals around maximal force production specific to their sport - or hypertrophy and will use the best tool for the job. Barbells, dumbbells, cables, bands.

My father is smarter than his father because he has advanced his technology, not the other way around. Humans create and advance technology, that's what we do.

Want to talk about practical every day scenarios? Need to move a boulder. use a block and tackle or a forklift truck.

[rocknrollguitar]

My father is smarter than his father because he has advanced his technology, not the other way around. Humans create and advance technology, that's what we do.

Want to talk about practical every day scenarios? Need to move a boulder. use a block and tackle or a forklift truck.

Ahhh! so technology puts the modern man ahead? All the forklift trucks in the world to save time, and all the smartphones in the world to waste the time again on cat videos, yes I see your point.

Truly masters of wisdom these modern men.. they can build simple sqaure cubes of glass using things like cranes and forklift trucks! yet the "less intellegent" forefathers managed to build pyramids, Roman temples and towering cathedrals all without such.. the modern man needs a GPS navigation system and satellite to navigate through a different suburb and yet the intelectually inferior men of old navigated the seven seas through just the stars alone.. to think these idiots couldn't even invent a GPS to do it for them.

How will corrupt elites and Governments ever take over the world when their strongest opposition (men) are independant and can navigate without GPS, and build houses without forklift trucks and lift weights without needing commercial gym equipment.. Geesh.

[SuffolkPunch]

Modern man could build pyramids if he still believed the same ridiculous hokum that inspired the ancients to build the pyramids - a lot faster and more efficiently too.

The same general argument applies to all of your rant. I've seen the same basic anti modern arguments stated many times. They are based on an over romanticised view of the past, not actual facts. The fact is that we have more choice and freedom and better health and life expectancy, lower infant mortality, less likely to starve to death or die from a simple infected cut.

You can continue to idealise "the good old days" as much as you want, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people are not going to go back to lifting stones for their strength and hypertrophy goals - I guarantee it.

[air2fakie]

I didn't initially get the point of this post, but it sounds like this whole spine compression Q was really a roundabout way of you introducing your "minimalist" training philosophy and why it's better than what anyone else does? I.e., you train only with atlas stones, don't care about form, don't care about progression... and that it's better than the rest of us who try to make use of more modern forms of equipment that are available?

Well when I reply honestly people sometimes think I'm wierd but I'm basically a skinny dude (although thickening) and I am into minimalist ancient weight lifting methods so I often don't have the luxury of 5kg increments, as such I try to take it easy on my spine when lifting, I also don't like to think too technically when lifting and just focus on creating maximum intensity, so I like to take extra time while not training to revise what suits my goals, and finally I just generally am aware and cautious of my spine and do not take my current quality of life for granted, I feel my spine does not like the loading too much.

It is great but I would avoid it if I could due to my minimalist philosophy, I try to only train with stones and the plane of the Earth.

Mankind has lifted stones since ancient mesopotamia all the way to strongman competitions today so for this particular discourse I think the stone "wins".

[asrl78]

Ahhh! so technology puts the modern man ahead? All the forklift trucks in the world to save time, and all the smartphones in the world to waste the time again on cat videos, yes I see your point.

Truly masters of wisdom these modern men.. they can build simple sqaure cubes of glass using things like cranes and forklift trucks! yet the "less intellegent" forefathers managed to build pyramids, Roman temples and towering cathedrals all without such.. the modern man needs a GPS navigation system and satellite to navigate through a different suburb and yet the intelectually inferior men of old navigated the seven seas through just the stars alone.. to think these idiots couldn't even invent a GPS to do it for them.

They managed to build pyramids with primitive terchnology because slave labour and life was cheap. They didn't care how many hundreds of slaves died to get those pyramids built. These days, we value life more, and like to get things done quickly and efficiently, because time has value and physical effort and human labor has a cost, so we invent new technology to increase time efficiency and reduce physical workload.

[rocknrollguitar]

You can continue to idealise "the good old days" as much as you want, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people are not going to go back to lifting stones for their strength and hypertrophy goals - I guarantee it.

And I would say that that makes perfect sense, cast iron is denser and more compact of a format, is it also smoother for use in resedential settings and less "clumsy" than a stone can be, bars also provide advanced grip for safety and precise targeting of specific muscles, it does make sense.


So I don't think it's so much that you disagree with me, so much as it is you have different goals, outlook and lifestyle, which is totally fine.

[rocknrollguitar]

I didn't initially get the point of this post, but it sounds like this whole spine compression Q was really a roundabout way of you introducing your "minimalist" training philosophy and why it's better than what anyone else does? I.e., you train only with atlas stones, don't care about form, don't care about progression... and that it's better than the rest of us who try to make use of more modern forms of equipment that are available?

Woooahhhh hold up..


I never said my way of training is better than anyone elses, I do care about form and progression (never said I didn't) and the point of that post was to ask a question about how to avoid injury which was answered, all else is just disscusion for the sake of discussion, not to "prove my point", as I have no point to prove, just to clarify.

[rocknrollguitar]

They managed to build pyramids with primitive terchnology because slave labour and life was cheap. They didn't care how many hundreds of slaves died to get those pyramids built. These days, we value life more, and like to get things done quickly and efficiently, because time has value and physical effort and human labor has a cost, so we invent new technology to increase time efficiency and reduce physical workload.

Yes, masses of slaves indeed.. they abolished slavery for morality ?

They did some maths, now look we've got to look after these bastards, we gotta feed them, cloth them, treat them when they get sick.. I know, we'll just give them $15 an hour and tell them they're free to go.

Alright you lot, were abolishing slavery for morality and you're free to go.....



See you back here at 7am tommorow morning.

[air2fakie]

Woooahhhh hold up.. I never said my way of training is better than anyone elses, I do care about form and progression (never said I didn't) and the point of that post was to ask a question about how to avoid injury which was answered, all else is just disscusion for the sake of discussion, not to "prove my point", as I have no point to prove, just to clarify.

Just was literally repeating what you said. If you don't like to think too technically when lifting and just focus on lifting as heavy as possible, you're likely to put your spine at risk whether you're doing squats or OHP. Both can be done relatively safely, or relatively dangerously, depending on form and routine. For OHP, you also don't mention the extra step of getting the stone into and out of position.

I'd guess you could train more effectively even if you only want to train with stones, but if you're happy with your results, carry on.

I'm basically a skinny dude

[rocknrollguitar]

I.e., you train only with atlas stones, don't care about form, don't care about progression...

Just was literally repeating what you said.

Ah yeah haha,


Honestly I wish I didn't think so technially actually, I don't have spinal issues but sometimes lifting heavier weights I can feel lower back doesn't like it so it's good to have an alternative way to perform the excercise if it's ever playing up.

[air2fakie]

Ah yeah haha,


Honestly I wish I didn't think so technially actually, I don't have spinal issues but sometimes lifting heavier weights I can feel lower back doesn't like it so it's good to have an alternative way to perform the excercise if it's ever playing up.

OK, well this sounds like the opposite of everything you've said above. If only there were pieces of equipment, exercises and progression methods available other than those involving just stones.

Your post is actually an interesting variation of the typical post where someone asks about issues they're experiencing, but then is stubbornly locked into their own program/theories. Basing your workout program on what people were forced to do in ancient times is a new approach.

[rocknrollguitar]

OK, well this sounds like the opposite of everything you've said above. If only there were pieces of equipment, exercises and progression methods available other than those involving just stones.

Your post is actually an interesting variation of the typical post where someone asks about issues they're experiencing, but then is stubbornly locked into their own program/theories. Basing your workout program on what people were forced to do in ancient times is a new approach.

SuffolkPunch reccomended a dip belt to help avoid spinal loading, I said I would prefer to avoid using additional equipment if I could and that I would first attempt to lesson spinal loading through altering my technique.




That doesn't make me stubborn, that is perfectly reasonable.

[air2fakie]

SuffolkPunch reccomended a dip belt to help avoid spinal loading, I said I would prefer to avoid using additional equipment if I could and that I would first attempt to lesson spinal loading through altering my technique.

That doesn't make me stubborn, that is perfectly reasonable.

Actually he also said an atlas stone sounds like a pretty bad idea given your concerns. You're very selective in your reading comprehension of posts.

Regarding being stubborn v. reasonable, see your above dissertations on physics, ancient civilization and corrupt modern elites as the reasoning behind your training philosophy. Good luck with your stones!

[WolfRose7]

Too summarise for anyone else, extremist minimalism theories based on naturalistic fallacies are dumb.

/Thread

[lsiberian]

Ahhh! so technology puts the modern man ahead? All the forklift trucks in the world to save time, and all the smartphones in the world to waste the time again on cat videos, yes I see your point.

Truly masters of wisdom these modern men.. they can build simple sqaure cubes of glass using things like cranes and forklift trucks! yet the "less intellegent" forefathers managed to build pyramids, Roman temples and towering cathedrals all without such.. the modern man needs a GPS navigation system and satellite to navigate through a different suburb and yet the intelectually inferior men of old navigated the seven seas through just the stars alone.. to think these idiots couldn't even invent a GPS to do it for them.

How will corrupt elites and Governments ever take over the world when their strongest opposition (men) are independant and can navigate without GPS, and build houses without forklift trucks and lift weights without needing commercial gym equipment.. Geesh.

You are posting on an internet forum replying to a man across the ocean from me. If you truly believe in minimalism you wouldn't be on a computer. I'm quite certain we could build a towering cathedral now. In my town they are building things 100 stories tall.

[TolerantLactose]

Imagine how convoluted OP's fantasy ideal will be after he trains for more than the few months he has already.

[Ghawk21]

I assume based on your rationalizations that you also; live in the woods, ride a horse or walk and perform all of your own hunting and gathering? There's nothing inherently wrong with minimalist training but some of your reasoning is questionable at best. Did you also inherit your tinfoil hat from your ancestors?

[TolerantLactose]

I assume based on your rationalizations that you also; live in the woods, ride a horse or walk and perform all of your own hunting and gathering? There's nothing inherently wrong with minimalist training but some of your reasoning is questionable at best. Did you also inherit your tinfoil hat from your ancestors?

Yes, of course he has. His world has engineers, though.