new to keto!

[cburgess]

anyways hopefully you guys take it easy on me. new to keto bout 6 days in, and going on vacation in about 3 months, just trying to lose as much body fat i can with out or very minimal strength and muscle loss, I've read eating to much protein will turn to glucose.
but I'm trying to get at least 250 gams a day? if that sounds right I'm sitting just under 300 right now and use a tanita scale today saying I'm 230 fat free mass and my hopes are to possible get stonger while maintaining muscle mass by switching to lower rep ranges to compensate, is that to much protein? do i just need to make sure i have more fats then protein to make it work? any tips
also are calories super critical in the beginning?

[Rugger7]

anyways hopefully you guys take it easy on me. new to keto bout 6 days in, and going on vacation in about 3 months, just trying to lose as much body fat i can with out or very minimal strength and muscle loss, I've read eating to much protein will turn to glucose.
but I'm trying to get at least 250 gams a day? if that sounds right I'm sitting just under 300 right now and use a tanita scale today saying I'm 230 fat free mass and my hopes are to possible get stonger while maintaining muscle mass by switching to lower rep ranges to compensate, is that to much protein? do i just need to make sure i have more fats then protein to make it work? any tips
also are calories super critical in the beginning?

I've always eaten more protein than the 65/30/5 they recommend. I'm more like 40-50 fat/ 50 protein / 5-10 carbs, it still works.

[Rugger7]

I've always eaten more protein than the 65/30/5 they recommend. I'm more like 40-50 fat/ 50 protein / 5-10 carbs, it still works.

If you were to more or less eat only protein you would still be in ketosis, I think there is a diet called the 'fat fast' which is more or less this, low fat, low carb, moderate protein, also called a PSMF diet, it is ketogenic it is just not CKD.

[cburgess]

If you were to more or less eat only protein you would still be in ketosis, I think there is a diet called the 'fat fast' which is more or less this, low fat, low carb, moderate protein, also called a PSMF diet, it is ketogenic it is just not CKD.

thanks appreciate the help guys. so is trying to hit like 230+ plus grams a day okay? also

[cburgess]

also to add I'm trying to dial in a type of routine for work days let me ono what you guys think and if its to much and if i need to dial it back

meal 1 200g chicken breast, 60g asparagus, 2 piece bacon, 1/4 avocado
meal 2 3 pep sticks @ 21 pro and 42g fat
meal 3 same as meal 1
meal 4 same as meal 1
meal 5 protein shake 24 g protein
meal 6 egg or chicken with salad and avocado
meal 7 3 pep sticks and parmesan cheese chips 10g fat 9 pro

[redmond3]

anyways hopefully you guys take it easy on me. new to keto bout 6 days in, and going on vacation in about 3 months, just trying to lose as much body fat i can with out or very minimal strength and muscle loss, I've read eating to much protein will turn to glucose.
but I'm trying to get at least 250 gams a day? if that sounds right I'm sitting just under 300 right now and use a tanita scale today saying I'm 230 fat free mass and my hopes are to possible get stonger while maintaining muscle mass by switching to lower rep ranges to compensate, is that to much protein? do i just need to make sure i have more fats then protein to make it work? any tips
also are calories super critical in the beginning?

I would cut for 8 weeks then spend the other 4 weeks going back to having carbs in your diet. If you cut for 12 weeks then go on vacation I assume you will be having carbs ? If so you will be gaining, water, and ADD fat back. The issue is your body isn't as efficient as it was before with using carbs so you will gain weight back. Normally you add carbs back slowly each week so you don't ruin your whole cut. If you read around you will see some people made this mistake before.

I would say you could try it and see how it works, but I would say that start lower and move up towards that and see how it works and the results. How many calories are you aiming to eat? They have all different kinds of so called "keto" diet, some mind as well be called very low carb diets which work also.

You can pickup a strength program and still be at a deficit and get stronger though, worked for me.. just have to push yourself. Lower reps I would do, I did my 5x5 for 8 weeks, now going to do more of a powerlifting program I played around with.

You don't need to have more fats than protein to see results, At first I did true keto 70-75% fats 20-25% protein 5-10% carb normally staying under 50grams of carbs a day of that 20-30 grams of fiber, then when results started stalling I pumped my protein up and dropped my fats down. If you do decide to do refeeds, I would say don't refeed for the first 2 weeks atleast.

Long as you are in a deficit, doing keto you will shed bodyfat pretty quickly. I had 25lb difference in just 8 weeks, and I wasen't even obese (includes some muscle gain) I did fall off from diet and gym so that too played a part in my results.

I think you will do fine, just make sure you don't have your fats comprise of all saturated fats, I did enjoy bacon throughout though. won't kill you for the most part

[cburgess]

also to add I'm trying to dial in a type of routine for work days let me ono what you guys think and if its to much and if i need to dial it back

meal 1 200g chicken breast, 60g asparagus, 2 piece bacon, 1/4 avocado
meal 2 3 pep sticks @ 21 pro and 42g fat
meal 3 same as meal 1
meal 4 same as meal 1
meal 5 protein shake 24 g protein
meal 6 egg or chicken with salad and avocado
meal 7 3 pep sticks and parmesan cheese chips 10g fat 9 pro

haven't really seen the scale move too much and its been about a week.. I've changed it to 2 pep sticks per and 2 scoops protons after work out?.. anything else i could do to try and move the scale down? was considering eca?

[kennycroxdale]

I've always eaten more protein than the 65/30/5 they recommend. I'm more like 40-50 fat/ 50 protein / 5-10 carbs, it still works.

NOT Ketogenic

Consuming 50% of your calories from protein ensure you will never get into ketosis.

Gluconeogenesis

When carbohydrate consumption is low and protein intake is high, the body will convert protein into glucose.

Thus, a low carbohydrate diet with high protein (50%) and moderate fat is NOT a Kegogenic Diet.

It is a high protein/low carb diet.

Ketogenic Dieting: Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto...questions.html

As this article notes, Ketosis ONLY occur with...

1) Fat Intake; 75%

2) Carbohydrate Intake: 5%

3) Protein Intake: 20%

As per Wilson...

"The most common mistakes I see are:

-Mistaking low-carbohydrate diets for very low-ketogenic dieting
-Consuming too much protein
-Not allowing for a long enough adaptation period

Kenny Croxdale

[kennycroxdale]

If you were to more or less eat only protein you would still be in ketosis,

You will NEVER reach or be in ketosis with eating only protein.

My previous post on gluconeogenesis goes into that.

Kenny Croxdale

[kennycroxdale]

also to add I'm trying to dial in a type of routine for work days let me ono what you guys think and if its to much and if i need to dial it back

meal 1 200g chicken breast, 60g asparagus, 2 piece bacon, 1/4 avocado
meal 2 3 pep sticks @ 21 pro and 42g fat
meal 3 same as meal 1
meal 4 same as meal 1
meal 5 protein shake 24 g protein
meal 6 egg or chicken with salad and avocado
meal 7 3 pep sticks and parmesan cheese chips 10g fat 9 pro

Poor Protein:Fat Intake Percentages

You are not in ketosis and never will be with this diet.

Too Many Meals/Snacks

You are consuming too many meals/snacks.

The number of meals combined with the amount of protein you are consuming ensure you are not in ketosis.

Your body (metabolic pathway) is converting protein (glucogenesis) into glucose.

This means you body is primarily burning glucose and a minimal amount of fat from foods and your body.

Kenny Croxdale

[kennycroxdale]

haven't really seen the scale move too much and its been about a week.. I've changed it to 2 pep sticks per and 2 scoops protons after work out?.. anything else i could do to try and move the scale down? was considering eca?

Your diet is the problem.

Until you fix it, you not going to make much progress.

Kenny Croxdale

[cburgess]

Your diet is the problem.

Until you fix it, you not going to make much progress.

Kenny Croxdale

how much should I lower it to? if I lower it to much will I lose more muscle or does being I. the state of ketosis make your body want to preserve ever bit you have even though protein is much lower?

[flamebroiled]

how much should I lower it to? if I lower it to much will I lose more muscle or does being I. the state of ketosis make your body want to preserve ever bit you have even though protein is much lower?

I'm no expert on the subject, but this is what I understand about protein and ketosis. Your macros should be in the 75%(F), 20%(P), 5%(C) range. Figure out your lean body mass, and multiply it by between .8g-1g. Example, I have about 175lbs lbm and I multiplied it by .8 and came up with 140g. Another poster encouraged me to bump it up to 1g per, so now I'll try 175g and see how my ketones look about a week in to the adaptation.

[kennycroxdale]

how much should I lower it to? if I lower it to much will I lose more muscle or does being I. the state of ketosis make your body want to preserve ever bit you have even though protein is much lower?

Ketogenic Dieting: Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto...questions.html

This article will answer many of your questions.

Wilson does and excellent job of answering the most asked question in the video that is in the article.

It doesn't appear that you read the article or listened Wilson's podcast.

Wilson's article/podcast is a good place start.

With that stated, let me answer some of your question.

7 Meals A Day

Based on the latest research, this is counter productive for weight loss and increasing Muscle Protein Synthesis (building muscle mass).

Refractory Period

Research shows that optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis occurs when meals are consume approximately every 4 - 5 hours.

This due to the...

"Muscle Full" Phenomenon

Muscles are like sponges.

When the sponge is soaked with water, it cannot soak up any more.

As the sponge dries, it able to absorb more water.

The same occurs with muscles. After consuming a meal, it takes approximately 4 - 5 hours before the muscles "dries out" and are able to "Soak Up" nutrients (Muscle Protein Synthesis to occur).

Thus, the bodybuilding protocol of eating every three hours is an antiquated, ineffective method.

Should you eat protein every 2-3 hours for muscle growth?
http://www.exercisebiology.com/index...muscle_growth/

This article provide a brief, simple explanation on the Refractory Period in eating.

Increased Metabolism

Research shows that consuming more meals/snaps per day (5 plus) does not increase your metabolism.

Ironically, one's metabolism increases during a length period of NOT eating (i.e. Intermittent Fasting).

The body first reaction during this short starvation period is to burn body fat so that muscle mass is preserved.

Chess Game Analogy

Fat is considered to be the Pawn in regard to self preservation.

It times of hardship, the Pawn (fat) is expendable.

Protein is the Queen. It is the dominate piece.

Once you lose the Queen, you usually end losing the King...game over.

Insulin

Anytime you consume food, insulin is release.

Insulin shuts down the fat burning process.

Carbohydrates trigger insulin release. However, proteins also elicit insulin release.

Thus, consuming multiple meals during the day ensure that less or no fat burning is taking place.

Gluconeogenesis

Let's hammer this point once more.

The body will convert protein into glucose, in the presence of a low carbohydrate diet.

This means than any diet that's low in carbohydrates and high in protein is NOT a Ketogenic Diet.

With a low carbohydrate, high protein diet glucose is being produce via gluconeogenesis.

Thus, glucose is being used. Very little fat (from food or body fat) is being used.

Personal Perspectives

Ironically, Dr Jake Wilson stated in an interview of his initial difficulty with the Keto Diet.

The difficulty from consuming too much protein.

I did the same. As with Wilson and individual like yourself, my diet was Low Carbohydrate/High Protein.

Glucagon

As Jay Robb (Nutritionist) stated, "Insulin is a Fat Maker, Glucagon is a Fat Taker."

Glucagon is the counter to insulin.

When insulin levels are low (via low carbohydrate and low to moderate protein intake), glucagon converts body fat to energy, burn body fat.

Ketone Protect Protein

Research indicates that ketones preserve muscle mass by utilizing body fat.

Ketosis Test Strips

An inexpensive method of ensuring you are in ketosis is with Ketosis Test Strips.

They cost about $10 for 100.

Summary

1) The Ketogenic Diet: Low Carbohydrates, Low to Moderate Protein, High Fat. Wilson's article/my previous post have define the percentages.

2) Fewer Meals/Snacks:

a) Research on the "Refractory Period" has demonstrated that fewer meals/snaks is more when it comes to Muscle Protein Synthesis.

b) Fewer meals decreases insulin (which shut down fat burning) and increase glucagon release (which promotes fat burning).

3) "No one every got dumber from reading a book (anything)." Cosgrove

There some good online information what is the real Ketogenic Diet.

Unfortunately, there is also a vast amount of misinformation (i.e. Low Carbohydrate/High Protein and Carbohydrate Cycling--The Anatolic Diet, Bodyopus, etc.

4) Ketosis Test Strips: This is a cheap, effective method of determining if you are in ketosis.

Kenny Croxdale

[kennycroxdale]

I'm no expert on the subject, but this is what I understand about protein and ketosis. Your macros should be in the 75%(F), 20%(P), 5%(C) range.

These percentages ensure you are in ketosis.

Figure out your lean body mass, and multiply it by between .8g-1g. Example, I have about 175lbs lbm and I multiplied it by .8 and came up with 140g.

175 lbs?

Is that you estimated lean body mass?

Lean Body Mass X .8

This sound reasonable.

However, I doubt the most individual need 1 gram per pound of lean body mass.

Another poster encouraged me to bump it up to 1g per, so now I'll try 175g and see how my ketones look about a week in to the adaptation.

I question if 1 gram per pound of lean body mass will keep you in ketosis.

What method are you employing to determine if you are in ketosis?

Kenny Croxdale

[flamebroiled]

These percentages ensure you are in ketosis.



175 lbs?

Is that you estimated lean body mass?

Yes, it's estimated. I did a body scan with one of those scales from Complete Nutrition. I understand that it's probably not entirely accurate, but even if it's close, it's a baseline figure to go off the next time I get a similar scan.

Lean Body Mass X .8

This sound reasonable.

However, I doubt the most individual need 1 gram per pound of lean body mass.

Well if .8g allows me to enter ketosis and maintain the lean muscle I already have, and maybe even allow me to slowly add more, then I'd be perfectly happy with that.

I question if 1 gram per pound of lean body mass will keep you in ketosis.

What method are you employing to determine if you are in ketosis?

Kenny Croxdale

I plan on purchasing a glucometer or whatever you might call the ketone reader by blood sample. A friend of mine that has been doing keto for the last year is going to send me a link of the one she purchased. Any recommendations?

[Rugger7]

You will NEVER reach or be in ketosis with eating only protein.

My previous post on gluconeogenesis goes into that.

Kenny Croxdale

You are 100% wrong. Ketosis occurs whenever we are depleted on glucose. If you are on a restricted calorie diet and half your calories are from protein you will still be in ketosis almost all the time. Go get some ketostix and try it out. The body cannot efficiently turn protein into glucose like it can carbs, you will be in ketosis.

If say you are burning 3000 calories per day and eating 4000 a day in protein you are right you will not be in ketosis, but if you are burning 3000 calories per day, eating 2000 total calories, 1000 from protein and 1000 from fat you will be in ketosis.

So let's say in the above example your body is synthesizing 500 cals of protein for muscle and cellular repair and turning 500 cals into glucose, okay how long is that going to last you? 3 hours ? So you're in ketosis 21 hours a day. Actually, your body will not leave ketosis most likely because glucose is not going to become your primary fuel.

If you eat 1000 cals a day only from protein and burn 3000 you will be in ketosis most of the time. If you eat 1000 cals from carbs only you will still be in ketosis most of the time because as we do the math we're only eating 1/3 of our daily needs so our glucose tank is never full and whenever we add a little to the tank then we're out again shortly.

If you water fast and eat nothing, no fat, no carbs, no protein, you will be in ketosis.

ketosis is not an effect of eating a lot of fat, it is an effect of depleting glucose.

So when you see my example saying that I eat closer to 50/50 than 70/30 what is really going on is I am eating less calories, not more protein.

If I'm shooting for 2000 cals per day and I eat 1000 from protein and 1000 from fat I will lose more fat than if I eat 2500 total with 750 from protein and 1750 from fat and I will still be in ketosis just as much, I just prefer foods like chicken and beef and lower calories when I'm dieting.

[flamebroiled]

You are 100% wrong. Ketosis occurs whenever we are depleted on glucose. If you are on a restricted calorie diet and half your calories are from protein you will still be in ketosis almost all the time. Go get some ketostix and try it out. The body cannot efficiently turn protein into glucose like it can carbs, you will be in ketosis.

If say you are burning 3000 calories per day and eating 4000 a day in protein you are right you will not be in ketosis, but if you are burning 3000 calories per day, eating 2000 total calories, 1000 from protein and 1000 from fat you will be in ketosis.

So let's say in the above example your body is synthesizing 500 cals of protein for muscle and cellular repair and turning 500 cals into glucose, okay how long is that going to last you? 3 hours ? So you're in ketosis 21 hours a day. Actually, your body will not leave ketosis most likely because glucose is not going to become your primary fuel.

If you eat 1000 cals a day only from protein and burn 3000 you will be in ketosis most of the time. If you eat 1000 cals from carbs only you will still be in ketosis most of the time because as we do the math we're only eating 1/3 of our daily needs so our glucose tank is never full and whenever we add a little to the tank then we're out again shortly.

If you water fast and eat nothing, no fat, no carbs, no protein, you will be in ketosis.

ketosis is not an effect of eating a lot of fat, it is an effect of depleting glucose.

So when you see my example saying that I eat closer to 50/50 than 70/30 what is really going on is I am eating less calories, not more protein.

If I'm shooting for 2000 cals per day and I eat 1000 from protein and 1000 from fat I will lose more fat than if I eat 2500 total with 750 from protein and 1750 from fat and I will still be in ketosis just as much, I just prefer foods like chicken and beef and lower calories when I'm dieting.

Are you sure you're not confusing ketosis with being in a caloric deficit? From what I understand, after your body can no longer find adequate amounts of glucose to use as fuel it begins to search for another fuel source. If your protein intake is to high, the body will then convert that protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis) and would prevent the body from entering ketosis. I'm no expert, but something else I've heard is that ketostix can be a bit misleading. As there could possibly be ketones present in the body, but may not accurately indicate being in a ketogenic state. Not trying to argue, just curious about your thoughts and where you came up with them.

[kennycroxdale]

You are 100% wrong. Ketosis occurs whenever we are depleted on glucose. If you are on a restricted calorie diet and half your calories are from protein you will still be in ketosis almost all the time.

Evidently, you're knowledge in this area supersedes leading researchers in this field.

I am sure you can correct them and the empirical data on this, as well.

Kenny Croxdale

[kennycroxdale]

I plan on purchasing a glucometer or whatever you might call the ketone reader by blood sample. A friend of mine that has been doing keto for the last year is going to send me a link of the one she purchased. Any recommendations?

Glucometer

I had one years ago. At that time it only measured blood glucose levels.

It was a great tool. Although, the glucometer strips were a bit pricey and still are.

However, not knowing if you are or aren't in ketosis is even more costly. So, it's a good investment.

It would be interesting to hear about your friend experience with the keto diet and glucometer.

Kenny Croxdale

[Rugger7]

A Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet is almost 100% protein but you still enter 'ketosis'. While it is not a 'keto diet' you still enter ketosis. The body can either use glucose or body fat as its primary fuel. It switches to ketosis when glucose is not readily available. People doing PSMF are in 'ketosis'.

http://paleoleap.com/protein-sparing-modified-fasts

The question is really are you at a deficit. If you are burning 3000 per day and eating 3000+ per day then yes that is where eating over 30% protein might be problematic. I'm assuming we're eating at deficits here. Your body does not have extra calories to store as glucose when you're eating at a deficit, any converted protein will be readily burned, not stored for future use as if you just ate a bowl of pasta. If you were eating like 3 whole chickens and exceeding your daily expenditure then yes you might not be in ketosis because you'd be eating enough protein for your body to convert to glucose and store and switch back to burning primarily glucose.

[JerryB]

A Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet is almost 100% protein but you still enter 'ketosis'. While it is not a 'keto diet' you still enter ketosis. The body can either use glucose or body fat as its primary fuel. It switches to ketosis when glucose is not readily available. People doing PSMF are in 'ketosis'.

http://paleoleap.com/protein-sparing-modified-fasts

The question is really are you at a deficit. If you are burning 3000 per day and eating 3000+ per day then yes that is where eating over 30% protein might be problematic. I'm assuming we're eating at deficits here. Your body does not have extra calories to store as glucose when you're eating at a deficit, any converted protein will be readily burned, not stored for future use as if you just ate a bowl of pasta. If you were eating like 3 whole chickens and exceeding your daily expenditure then yes you might not be in ketosis because you'd be eating enough protein for your body to convert to glucose and store and switch back to burning primarily glucose.

I tested my ketones when I was on such a diet in the past and I was not into ketosis. The caloric deficit did not put me into ketosis.

Kenny Croxdale advice is applicable to a ketogenic diet.