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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    Cool story bro. It's like you have a lock on football and playing beyond high school.

    And then, you still aren't 100% versed and like to talk about outliers as being generally true.

    Lucia.... Your about as sharp as a bowling ball. I'm starting to realize I'm dealing with a special needs person here. So I'll type slowly and make my point again.

    If you get your caretaker to read my original post to you, you'll see that I was talking about 6A (large classification 3k -5k) high schools in states like Texas, Florida and California ( not Loomis). Those schools will have several players that are D1 or D2 college size. Not outliers.... Whatever that means.

    I realize your a little slow and stand only 5'10 so you wouldn't know anything about college recruiting in 2016 and live in the sticks in northern, CA. So there's no way you can make a comment about my original post as being false.
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  2. #32
    Cybergenics...it's bomb! lucia316's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Lucia.... Your about as sharp as a bowling ball. I'm starting to realize I'm dealing with a special needs person here. So I'll type slowly and make my point again.

    If you get your caretaker to read my original post to you, you'll see that I was talking about 6A (large classification 3k -5k) high schools in states like Texas, Florida and California ( not Loomis). Those schools will have several players that are D1 or D2 college size. Not outliers.... Whatever that means.

    I realize your a little slow and stand only 5'10 so you wouldn't know anything about college recruiting in 2016 and live in the sticks in northern, CA. So there's no way you can make a comment about my original post as being false.
    Your ad hominem attacks are fun because you don't understand the concept of outliers. You're also struggling to understand that kids in VA versus kids in TX versus kids in Ohio are not the same. Averages may be different in different areas. Outliers are the kids you're talking about that are not average. "Several" is an outlier. The majority of players aren't that large. You can also look at the rosters of those big schools in Texas and there are perhaps 2 or 3 of large size, again, outliers. Further, just because a player may be of D1 or D2 college size, does not mean their play is of D1 or D2 caliber.

    You're also failing to understand that what you're calling a class 6A in Texas does not exist in CA. Read this again and attempt to wrap your head around it:
    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    ...You talk about 6A high schools in CA. Divisions in CA don't work like TX. Division VI-AA in CA are small schools. In fact, for the 2015 season CA expanded 5 divisions (D I - IV + Open) to 13 divisions (with two open divisions). Not that I particularly care, but if you want to take a look at who won the DII-AA division it may be interesting to you since you seemed to have an issue with someone from a town of 6000 like Loomis..
    My point is keep talking like you're some kid of expert, but you clearly don't know. It doesn't matter where one lives, even if the high school in your town is not small and a 2015 CA state champion. It doesn't take a genius to understand a couple of things:

    1) Huge high school kids are outliers, regardless of how big a school maybe. They will never be the norm and even big school rosters show that this is typically the case
    2) A kid in VA who's just trying to play high school football doesn't care about outliers in TX, CA or FL.
    3) You should stop trying to act like you know when you don't know.

    Looking forward to another ad hominem attack. I'm sure you'll need to Google that term as well as outliers. I'll make it easy for you.
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=outlier
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ad+hominem
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  3. #33
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    http://www.sbnation.com/college-foot...ayers-recruits


    This article sums up what I'm saying. In some areas of the country,the 3,4 and 5 star recruits almost out number the number of scholarships available to FBS schools (this does not even take into FCS, D2, NAIA or NJCAA schools )

    So yes...,, in some areas of the country with big time high schools, their are some "big azz" players....... Not just an outlier here or there. The numbers don't lie.
    Last edited by mrick40; 06-01-2016 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Link
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  4. #34
    Cybergenics...it's bomb! lucia316's Avatar
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    I'm an idiot, but you don't understand the concept of a bell curve and averages....sigh. The fact that you had to go to pictures from 4 years ago in an attempt to prop yourself up is sad.

    We are talking about VA because that's where the OP is located. Perhaps if you took the time to read instead of throwing your around your perceived big brain you'd have picked that up.

    Again, it doesn't matter where one lives. I'm done with you. Good luck with your perceived extreme knowledge of high school football. That and $.50 will get you a pack of gum.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    I'm an idiot, but you don't understand the concept of a bell curve and averages....sigh. The fact that you had to go to pictures from 4 years ago in an attempt to prop yourself up is sad.

    We are talking about VA because that's where the OP is located. Perhaps if you took the time to read instead of throwing your around your perceived big brain you'd have picked that up.

    Again, it doesn't matter where one lives. I'm done with you. Good luck with your perceived extreme knowledge of high school football. That and $.50 will get you a pack of gum.
    Ryan, this whole debate started because Sam Fort posted that if he plays varsity there's some big azz dudes he'll go against. You refuted that comment for some reason and I simply posted that in large classification high schools in states like Texas, Florida, and California that there will be some big azz dudes on the field.

    How in the world can you try and convince us that there are not talented players in these states or that it's just a few outliers as you say. You are wrong.

    If a kid plays varsity football in the largest classification, in those states, then he will go against some big azz dudes ( maybe not in Loomis where the gene pool consists of short , chubby, white dudes like yourself )

    This has nothing to do with the OP but just to set you straight on the facts. I think this case is closed and time to move on. Here is another link though to prove my point:

    http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...fornia-florida
    Last edited by mrick40; 06-01-2016 at 10:54 AM. Reason: link
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by leanandmean78 View Post
    I'm 5'7-5'8 playing football. I weigh 158 lbs and bench 200 lbs. I squat 305 lbs. I'm 17-18% body fat and I need to shed some of that off to paly receiver/safety/corner. Tips please? What to do? I only have 3 months until the summer and my goal is 375 squat(I'm a beginner lifter) and 235 on the bench. I need to be fast though and I can't be too flabby(which I am)
    OP, I don't believe you can reach both goals (big increase in strength and cut fat/improve speed) between now and camp in August. In general, there are two off-season football training periods; after the season during the winter, and when school is over during the summer. Typically the winter period is when you work to maximize strength, and the summer is period is strength plus power development plus speed/football movement work. As an example of a decent program for the later take a look at WS4SB3 plus the speed template.

    So, what should you do - if your school has a summer strength and conditioning program for football, follow that and lift with your teammates. If it's just lifting (no plyo's or football movement work) then add that on a couple of days a week. Work on becoming a better football player (skills) and the movements needed for your position.
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  7. #37
    Registered User sowilson's Avatar
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    So, anyone care to define "Big Azz Dudes" or "Outliers". Just for fun I'm listing the sizes of the offensive and defensive linemen primary rotation players (so starters and folk's who see lot's of playing time) of a large class (2500 students), metro area team that is moderately successful in a great conference. A team that this year will have roughly %20 of it's senior starters go on to play one or more sports in college at the D1, D2, and D3 level. Weights/heights are from the end of their summer S&C program just prior to August camp - most of these guys are bigger now. Guy's going on to play in college are marked.

    Offensive Linemen
    6' 5" 210
    5' 11" 230
    6' 1" 240
    6' 3" 280
    6' 5" 285 (D1-FCS)
    6' 0" 265 (D3)
    5' 11" 265

    Defensive Linemen (mainly a 3-4 scheme so lot's of DE's in this group).
    6' 3" 240 (D2)
    6' 3" 240
    6' 3" 215 (D3)
    6' 3" 225
    6' 1" 185
    5' 9" 210
    6' 1" 210
    6' 1" 270
    6' 0" 270
    6' 3" 255 (D2)
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    So, anyone care to define "Big Azz Dudes" or "Outliers". Just for fun I'm listing the sizes of the offensive and defensive linemen primary rotation players (so starters and folk's who see lot's of playing time) of a large class (2500 students), metro area team that is moderately successful in a great conference. A team that this year will have roughly %20 of it's senior starters go on to play one or more sports in college at the D1, D2, and D3 level. Weights/heights are from the end of their summer S&C program just prior to August camp - most of these guys are bigger now. Guy's going on to play in college are marked.

    Offensive Linemen
    6' 5" 210
    5' 11" 230
    6' 1" 240
    6' 3" 280
    6' 5" 285 (D1-FCS)
    6' 0" 265 (D3)
    5' 11" 265

    Defensive Linemen (mainly a 3-4 scheme so lot's of DE's in this group).
    6' 3" 240 (D2)
    6' 3" 240
    6' 3" 215 (D3)
    6' 3" 225
    6' 1" 185
    5' 9" 210
    6' 1" 210
    6' 1" 270
    6' 0" 270
    6' 3" 255 (D2)
    Yes....., those are some big azz high school dudes..... Thank you..... My point exactly.

    This team would beat Loomis 75-0
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  9. #39
    Cybergenics...it's bomb! lucia316's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Ryan, this whole debate started because Sam Fort posted that if he plays varsity there's some big azz dudes he'll go against. You refuted that comment for some reason and I simply posted that in large classification high schools in states like Texas, Florida, and California that there will be some big azz dudes on the field.

    How in the world can you try and convince us that there are not talented players in these states or that it's just a few outliers as you say. You are wrong.

    If a kid plays varsity football in the largest classification, in those states, then he will go against some big azz dudes ( maybe not in Loomis where the gene pool consists of short , chubby, white dudes like yourself )

    This has nothing to do with the OP but just to set you straight on the facts. I think this case is closed and time to move on. Here is another link though to prove my point:

    http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...fornia-florida
    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Ryan, this whole debate started because Sam Fort posted that if he plays varsity there's some big azz dudes he'll go against. You refuted that comment for some reason and I simply posted that in large classification high schools in states like Texas, Florida, and California that there will be some big azz dudes on the field.

    How in the world can you try and convince us that there are not talented players in these states or that it's just a few outliers as you say. You are wrong.

    If a kid plays varsity football in the largest classification, in those states, then he will go against some big azz dudes ( maybe not in Loomis where the gene pool consists of short , chubby, white dudes like yourself )

    This has nothing to do with the OP but just to set you straight on the facts. I think this case is closed and time to move on. Here is another link though to prove my point:

    http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...fornia-florida
    Oh my god. Seriously?

    1) SamFort isn't even the OP. The OP is from VA. SamFort assumed there would be some "Big Azz Dudes." You decided to chime in about CA, FL and TX where even those are still outlier and size != quality player. So just because someone is an outlier in size, it doesn't mean they are good players.

    2) Outliers are the guys that make it to the next level. I never stated that there weren't talented players, nice strawman. They are the outliers. The numbers don't lie, regardless of how badly you want to base them on states with more people (CA, TX and FL). Those states are ~87 million people versus country of 318M. Those three states make up nearly 27% of the population. Sheer numbers mean that of course they'll have more players going to play college ball. It's simple statistics. Granted those 3 states generate nearly 41% of the total college prospects, overall it doesn't change the chances of an individual competing beyond high school.

    The chances of any high school player playing D1 ball is 41:1 (2.4%). That gets slightly better if you open it up to other levels, but still 12:1 (8.3%). That's under 10% regardless of level.

    3) There are chances that any player can go up against a "Big Azz dude." Regardless, size != good player, nor does it mean someone smaller can't be stronger, faster, better player.

    4) I still think it's cute that you like my 4 year old pics Mr.No AVI, high school football master.

    5) Finally, perhaps getting your understanding of statistics straight would help you comprehend your misunderstanding.



    Sowilson, one team doesn't equal average regardless of size. I mean, Del Oro High School of Loomis, CA and 2015 D2AA (3rd largest schools division in CA) State Champs even have multiple athletes going to D1 schools and more to smaller. Does it matter? Nope. The numbers nationally still are the same (see above). Frankly, when you look at even the outliers at small schools like De La Salle in Concord, CA, they still have more college prospects than some larger schools. Further there are outliers to the opposite side of the spectrum. These are the guys that never touch the field. The average players make up the majority of people on the team. These people don't go to college and play some, perhaps on special teams.

    While in your situation you may have 20ish percent of linemen headed to colleges, that number sinks when you look at the team in total. That's the point. In general they are not average and outliers. They are the 2.4 and 8.3% that move on.

    Your example is also flawed if you're using linemen as your litmus test of "Big Azz Dudes." OP is a receiver, to which Sam Fort made the comment that started this stuff about big azz guys. How many receivers and CBs are going up against linemen on most plays? None. Those numbers aren't relevant. Of course your linemen are going to larger, but these boys aren't average D1 size. The average D1 o-lineman is 302.1 lbs. These kids are not "big azz dudes" as alluded to by mdick40, but they're good sized high school linemen outside of the 285 kid and the two 270 kids.

    On another note, I do agree with your counsel to OP and his goals being unrealistic.
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  10. #40
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    Ryan Lucia, you are so retarded that you actually made our point. Yes, it is all based on numbers. In large school classifications (3k to 5k enrollment) with 200 plus kids in their football program, they are going to put out some "big azz" dudes on the field. That's all the SamFort stated.

    Now your going against the word of a guy (SOWILSON), who obviously has some first hand connection to the sport. Not to mention the professional links that back my premise about the large schools in Texas, Florida and California.

    Nobody ever said anything about the next level. The only statement was about starting varsity at the high school level.

    So again, are you really trying to tell us that if a player starts at the varsity level in the large school classifications in states like Texas, Florida, and California, that he will not go against any "big azz" dudes??????????

    C'mon Ryan...not even you can be that stupid.....or can you?

    I think I'll believe the recruiting reports and posts from reputable people like sowilson that actually have a connection to the game, rather than a short, middle aged dude, living in the sticks in northern California, focused on losing his Pillsbury dough boy physique.

    ....and on a side note....I too am connected to the game and can tell you that the stats that sowilson gave are accurate. And that's on a 2500 enrollment school. Many schools in Texas have enrollments of 4000 to 5000, so yes with those numbers....some "big azz" dudes will make it onto the field...not just an "outlier" here or there.

    Ryan.....sit back, relax, realize that you are wrong......and have a doughnut on us.
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    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Ryan Lucia, you are so retarded that you actually made our point. Yes, it is all based on numbers. In large school classifications (3k to 5k enrollment) with 200 plus kids in their football program, they are going to put out some "big azz" dudes on the field. That's all the SamFort stated.

    Now your going against the word of a guy (SOWILSON), who obviously has some first hand connection to the sport. Not to mention the professional links that back my premise about the large schools in Texas, Florida and California.

    Nobody ever said anything about the next level. The only statement was about starting varsity at the high school level.

    So again, are you really trying to tell us that if a player starts at the varsity level in the large school classifications in states like Texas, Florida, and California, that he will not go against any "big azz" dudes??????????

    C'mon Ryan...not even you can be that stupid.....or can you?

    I think I'll believe the recruiting reports and posts from reputable people like sowilson that actually have a connection to the game, rather than a short, middle aged dude, living in the sticks in northern California, focused on losing his Pillsbury dough boy physique.

    ....and on a side note....I too am connected to the game and can tell you that the stats that sowilson gave are accurate. And that's on a 2500 enrollment school. Many schools in Texas have enrollments of 4000 to 5000, so yes with those numbers....some "big azz" dudes will make it onto the field...not just an "outlier" here or there.

    Ryan.....sit back, relax, realize that you are wrong......and have a doughnut on us.
    You guys care too much. I'm in high school and have less time to fill on internet forums. Come on now.
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    Originally Posted by leanandmean78 View Post
    You guys care too much. I'm in high school and have less time to fill on internet forums. Come on now.
    Haha.....I agree.....all comes down to this one statement:

    Originally Posted by SamFort View Post
    if he play varsity theirs some big azz dudes he has to go against

    This nimrod (Ryan Lucia) wants us to believe that in big programs, they won't be able to field some "big azz" dudes on the field. What an idiot!
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    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Ryan Lucia, you are so retarded that you actually made our point. Yes, it is all based on numbers. In large school classifications (3k to 5k enrollment) with 200 plus kids in their football program, they are going to put out some "big azz" dudes on the field. That's all the SamFort stated.
    You think it bothers me that you use my name? Not really. I'm not scared of the interweb like some who needs to be a big troll and lash out at people. You're good at trolling, you got me.

    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Now your going against the word of a guy (SOWILSON), who obviously has some first hand connection to the sport. Not to mention the professional links that back my premise about the large schools in Texas, Florida and California.
    You obviously didn't read anything I wrote, but why would you? You're trolling. Your "professional links" (LOL) don't change the numbers from the NCAA and other organizations:
    http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/football
    http://www.scholarshipstats.com/varsityodds.html

    These players that are the "Big Azz Dudes" you keep referencing are the outliers you keep referencing. It doesn't matter the size. Reading is obviously not something you're doing.


    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Nobody ever said anything about the next level. The only statement was about starting varsity at the high school level.
    Sure they did, sowilson reference those going to college. Again, reading is fundamental. You've failed that a couple of time in this thread. Not shocking, but you even quoted his post and said it was your point exactly. Here's the problem with that:

    If we're only talking about starting at the varsity level for a receiver/corner (per the original post) then sowilson's post is even less relevant as those are linemen.


    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    So again, are you really trying to tell us that if a player starts at the varsity level in the large school classifications in states like Texas, Florida, and California, that he will not go against any "big azz" dudes??????????
    Didn't say that. I simply said those players are not the norm, but the outliers. Another stellar troller strawman. You are good at this.

    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    C'mon Ryan...not even you can be that stupid.....or can you?
    Still chuckling. Are you the pot or the kettle?


    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    I think I'll believe the recruiting reports and posts from reputable people like sowilson that actually have a connection to the game, rather than a short, middle aged dude, living in the sticks in northern California, focused on losing his Pillsbury dough boy physique.
    Now you're just being a clown. sowilson is as anonymous as you are and equally as credible which is to say there is zero credibility with anonymous people on the interwebz just posting numbers. You're also a rando anonymous who makes claims of being a professional football player. But then, this is just part of the troll, so...yeah.

    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    ....and on a side note....I too am connected to the game and can tell you that the stats that sowilson gave are accurate. And that's on a 2500 enrollment school. Many schools in Texas have enrollments of 4000 to 5000, so yes with those numbers....some "big azz" dudes will make it onto the field...not just an "outlier" here or there.
    So you know exactly what school he's referencing, or are we just playing with BS hypotheticals again? Please see the numbers up above.


    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Ryan.....sit back, relax, realize that you are wrong......and have a doughnut on us.
    Reported for trolling. kkthxbai.

    Originally Posted by mrick40 View Post
    Haha.....I agree.....all comes down to this one statement:

    Originally Posted by SamFort View Post
    if he play varsity theirs some big azz dudes he has to go against

    This nimrod (Ryan Lucia) wants us to believe that in big programs, they won't be able to field some "big azz" dudes on the field. What an idiot!
    Definitely the kettle....statistics, it's hard.
    Last edited by lucia316; 06-01-2016 at 08:27 PM.
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    The statistics that we have are that you are Ryan Lucia from Loomis, CA (pop 6000). You are a short, chubby. middle aged, doofus looking guy who is trying to convince us that in areas such as Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas and Miami, that large classification high school teams aren't able to put on the field any "big azz" dudes, other than an outlier, here or there.

    i think the intelligent readers on this forum can make up their minds on this topic.

    This statement can sum up this thread:

    If you start for your varsity football team, and you go to a large high school (2500 plus), you will be playing against some big azz dudes, on the field.

    That's all the stats you need.
    Last edited by mrick40; 06-01-2016 at 08:57 PM.
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    Outliers are the guys that make it to the next level...
    I
    Sowilson, one team doesn't equal average regardless of size.

    While in your situation you may have 20ish percent of linemen headed to colleges, that number sinks when you look at the team in total. That's the point. In general they are not average and outliers. They are the 2.4 and 8.3% that move on.

    Your example is also flawed if you're using linemen as your litmus test of "Big Azz Dudes."

    The average D1 o-lineman is 302.1 lbs.
    Interesting how you can misread very simple things. I just posted a list of Offensive and Defensive linemen starters on one team (mostly seniors a few juniors). I wasn't using it as a litmus test for "big azz" dudes. I was just presenting a sample of a large school's starting linemen. Nothing was implied by posting that. Second, I said that roughly %20 of the Senior starters are going on to play at the next level in one or more sports. I did not say %20 of the linemen, so don't put words in my mouth. It's roughly %20 of the Senior starters that are going on to play at the next level. So, your statement "that number sinks when you look at the team in total" is a complete fabrication on your part. I'll repeat, roughly %20 of the starting seniors are playing one or more sports at the next level. Now, almost all of the seniors were starters and most of those who are playing at the next level are playing football.

    The list of starting linemen are mostly seniors but there are a few juniors (more so on defense) in that list.

    As for D1 OL size I assume that's the NOLA number and it's unclear if that's an average of all offensive linemen in the program or of starters. My bet is that it's starters who are usually juniors and seniors. In other words they' have 3-4 more years of strength and conditioning training than the numbers I presented which are mainly juniors and seniors taken prior to their junior and senior year of high school. I hope that 21 and 22 year old men are quite a bit bigger than 17 and 18 year old's. From my own communication with Big10, MAC, MIAC, and WIAC S&C coaches they look to add 30-40 pounds of weight (mainly muscle) to linemen as they work their way through college football.

    As an aside, it's not a real good idea to list average o-line and d-line height/weight numbers as it can be scheme and position dependent. In the NOLA numbers you posted the heights would be on the short side for tackles and high side for guards and centers - similar problem with weights. If you want to make comparisons of the group of kids who's stats I listed with various college size levels it's much better to do that with recruits at the various levels instead of college juniors and seniors. Or, if you're looking at rosters compare college freshman and redshirt freshmen with high school seniors. In general though figure 6'3" for D1 o-line, 6'2" for D2, and 6' for D3 - with a very wide variation in height.

    And thanks for defining what you mean by "outliers"
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    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    Interesting how you can misread very simple things. I just posted a list of Offensive and Defensive linemen starters on one team (mostly seniors a few juniors). I wasn't using it as a litmus test for "big azz" dudes. I was just presenting a sample of a large school's starting linemen. Nothing was implied by posting that. Second, I said that roughly %20 of the Senior starters are going on to play at the next level in one or more sports. I did not say %20 of the linemen, so don't put words in my mouth. It's roughly %20 of the Senior starters that are going on to play at the next level. So, your statement "that number sinks when you look at the team in total" is a complete fabrication on your part. I'll repeat, roughly %20 of the starting seniors are playing one or more sports at the next level. Now, almost all of the seniors were starters and most of those who are playing at the next level are playing football.


    The list of starting linemen are mostly seniors but there are a few juniors (more so on defense) in that list.
    My bad then, I misunderstood your intent. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I wasn't attempting to fabricate anything. What you are saying though is that the sport they are playing isn't necessarily football? Regardless, sounds like this school is an outlier. As the numbers from the NCAA show it as such.

    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    As for D1 OL size I assume that's the NOLA number and it's unclear if that's an average of all offensive linemen in the program or of starters. My bet is that it's starters who are usually juniors and seniors. In other words they' have 3-4 more years of strength and conditioning training than the numbers I presented which are mainly juniors and seniors taken prior to their junior and senior year of high school. I hope that 21 and 22 year old men are quite a bit bigger than 17 and 18 year old's. From my own communication with Big10, MAC, MIAC, and WIAC S&C coaches they look to add 30-40 pounds of weight (mainly muscle) to linemen as they work their way through college football.
    Actually, if you dig deeper it shows how that number was come to across the different conferences.
    http://sportsnola.com/size-matters-c...nsive-linemen/

    What I found interesting is how much size contributes to success at a line position versus how size matters less elsewhere with regard to success.

    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    As an aside, it's not a real good idea to list average o-line and d-line height/weight numbers as it can be scheme and position dependent. In the NOLA numbers you posted the heights would be on the short side for tackles and high side for guards and centers - similar problem with weights. If you want to make comparisons of the group of kids who's stats I listed with various college size levels it's much better to do that with recruits at the various levels instead of college juniors and seniors. Or, if you're looking at rosters compare college freshman and redshirt freshmen with high school seniors. In general though figure 6'3" for D1 o-line, 6'2" for D2, and 6' for D3 - with a very wide variation in height.
    I agree wholeheartedly here and it's a big reason as to why my comments earlier to SamFort started this disasterbacle. Since "Big Azz Dudes" matter little at receiver/DB. I also agree that it's specious to make the comparison to high school kids, but that's kind of the point that was made on page one. "Big Azz Dudes" is super subjective in general, has zero to do with skill, varying degrees to do with success and is going to be different at positions.

    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    And thanks for defining what you mean by "outliers"
    Of course. No one wants to define "Big Azz Dudes," but then that's a debate in an of itself.
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    Someone told me this during HS and I wish I would have taken it to heart: "you only play ball once in your life; put all of your focus into becoming a complete animal." Basically, "abandon" your bodybuilding goals and just focus on getting bigger and stronger while maintaining conditioning. I'm in the same boat, except i'm getting ready for my first D1 season. Embrace the pain and push forward!
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    Originally Posted by RuntStud View Post
    Someone told me this during HS and I wish I would have taken it to heart: "you only play ball once in your life; put all of your focus into becoming a complete animal." Basically, "abandon" your bodybuilding goals and just focus on getting bigger and stronger while maintaining conditioning. I'm in the same boat, except i'm getting ready for my first D1 season. Embrace the pain and push forward!
    there are tons of semi-pro and amateur football clubs and leagues all over the US. I'm asthonished that only very few Americans are aware of that. you can always play football if you want.. you don't have to play college ball.
    Basic Football / Sports Training Guide:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=172545001

    Train smart.
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    What you are saying though is that the sport they are playing isn't necessarily football? Regardless, sounds like this school is an outlier. As the numbers from the NCAA show it as such.
    The linemen I mentioned are all playing football in college, the one going D3 is playing football and track. As for the other kids on the team who are playing sports in college, the QB (6'5") is going to play Basketball, another kid (DB IIRC) is going to play baseball, 2 of the RB/WR guys are playing football, one of those also running track, and I believe the LB and another guy are playing football.

    What I found interesting is how much size contributes to success at a line position versus how size matters less elsewhere with regard to success.
    As the importance of size decreases in importance speed increases. However, if you play football in any position you need to know how to handle "big azz" dudes as you will be hit by them.

    As for the chance of playing at the next level out of high school I don't think this school is really an outlier. When I look at the placement rate of other schools in their conference they're putting similar numbers into college. The NCAA numbers (a bit under %10 of seniors will go on to play at the next level) are a gross look at all high school players regardless of school reputation, distance to a college that plays football, HS coaching, etc. If we had the data I believe that the larger suburban schools (say > 1000 students) with complete football programs (V, JV, B-squad), well funded, and with decent S&C programs actually put more kids into college programs than the smaller, underfunded, less well coached rural schools. I also believe that proximity to a college may also be a factor. Don't have the data to say that though.

    I've been involved with the booster club for my son's school for a number of years. it's amazing how much money (well over $100K/year) we have to raise to help the program where the school district doesn't. One of my concerns has been in the quality of our equipment (helmets and shoulder pads) vs the improvement in the strength, speed, and power of the kids in our league. One of the things I've been working on is replacing our shoulder pads (so called varsity pads) with pads that you find in D1 and NFL locker rooms as the kids in the large suburban school classification are very close in size to those who are recruited at the D1-FBS level. This is the result of the development of very good strength and conditioning programs in these schools over the last 10 years. What I hate to see is walking into the locker room and noticing 6 of the starting linemen wearing Sully Braces - sure sign of shoulder injuries. Although better equipment won't solve it, it can reduce severity and incidence somewhat.
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    I will say after reading these hilarious and informative posts... That I would have to agree with sowilson and mrick.

    High school athletics have changed a lot over the recent years in regards to year round training and conditioning. The athletes have gotten bigger, stronger and faster.
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    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    As the importance of size decreases in importance speed increases. However, if you play football in any position you need to know how to handle "big azz" dudes as you will be hit by them.
    I agree here partially. Except that while speed is great, it's actual skill at the position that's the greater factor. Knowing how to handle someone larger than you is great for sure, but worrying about it as something that is happening often is probably a waste of time. As a receiver, you're not going to deal with a lineman very often if at all outside of potentially on special teams. Knowing your strengths and leverage are great skills for sure and this is what separates the good from the average from the bad.

    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    As for the chance of playing at the next level out of high school I don't think this school is really an outlier. When I look at the placement rate of other schools in their conference they're putting similar numbers into college. The NCAA numbers (a bit under %10 of seniors will go on to play at the next level) are a gross look at all high school players regardless of school reputation, distance to a college that plays football, HS coaching, etc. If we had the data I believe that the larger suburban schools (say > 1000 students) with complete football programs (V, JV, B-squad), well funded, and with decent S&C programs actually put more kids into college programs than the smaller, underfunded, less well coached rural schools. I also believe that proximity to a college may also be a factor. Don't have the data to say that though.
    Perhaps true, but that could also be based on other socioeconomic factors outside of sports. I think the data in that area is going to be rather sparse so we'd both be spit-balling the possibilities. I think where there is a slight disconnect in the discussion is around the "Big Azz Dudes" being your D1 scholarship prospects versus walkons and smaller scholarships (if available) at the D1-NAIA schools. The outliers that everyone wants to talk about are the "Big Azz Dudes" that go on to "real college football."

    As a former D3 player, it's a markedly different game (speed, size, skill, etc) as anyone could imagine. Were there large guys, sure, but not D1 caliber players. My point, if I can clear it up, is that these "Big Azz Dudes" are the outliers that likely move on to scholarshiped D1 ball, but they are the exception rather than the rule regardless of where one lives, plays, etc. There are so many other things to worry about on the field other than size:
    That fast corner that's going to ruin your day because he's going to dominate you.
    The LB that is short, stubby, likes to hit and has great leverage and is jamming your FB into your lane all game.
    The D-end that gets low and dominates the edge and your "Big Azz" tackle.

    Originally Posted by sowilson View Post
    I've been involved with the booster club for my son's school for a number of years. it's amazing how much money (well over $100K/year) we have to raise to help the program where the school district doesn't. One of my concerns has been in the quality of our equipment (helmets and shoulder pads) vs the improvement in the strength, speed, and power of the kids in our league. One of the things I've been working on is replacing our shoulder pads (so called varsity pads) with pads that you find in D1 and NFL locker rooms as the kids in the large suburban school classification are very close in size to those who are recruited at the D1-FBS level. This is the result of the development of very good strength and conditioning programs in these schools over the last 10 years. What I hate to see is walking into the locker room and noticing 6 of the starting linemen wearing Sully Braces - sure sign of shoulder injuries. Although better equipment won't solve it, it can reduce severity and incidence somewhat.
    This I understand as well. It's even worse now that my son's high school is a "State Championship" program. The egos, the ridiculous money, the insane schedule with travel to San Diego, Hawaii and now Utah is driving up the costs for families. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the equipment. They spend so much money on things like, locker rooms, 6 game jerseys, new and different helmet decals every game, and other stuff it makes my head spin. Yet the equipment and training/development don't seem up to snuff. They take on sponsorships from Under Armor and Gatorade, but it seems none of that money rolls down hill. The boys get no equipment or shoes from UA, and Gatorade gives them chews and drinks....

    They charge us for everything, including summer conditioning now and "camps" so they can begin practice early. It's annoying.

    Yet it seems that none of the money goes toward the kis and their equipment. The pads and equipment remain sparse as you've noted. The increases in size have been coming for many years. The quick size increases may lead to these injuries, but I think you're right with the equipment, but I think there is a training aspect as well. I hear it all the time from my son. I taught him to squat properly two years ago. He came home the other day and said, "Hey dad, I'm squatting 185 for 10 now."

    Skeptical, I asked, "Really? Full and proper depth."

    He responded, "No, that's not the Del Oro way. The coaches going to parallel will cause knee problems."

    I was like, "You do them right, they're clueless."

    That "We do it the DO way" stuff drives me crazy and how many other crappy things are they teaching the kids. One of the big differences I saw when moving to college was the shift in focus to basic technique and skill sets where high school just didn't do that stuff. Kids develop crappy habits and some of these habits cause injury and problems. This isn't to say that the college environment can be perfect, but, anecdotally speaking, from friends and family that played up it tends to subside some.


    Originally Posted by calibacker View Post
    I will say after reading these hilarious and informative posts... That I would have to agree with sowilson and mrick.

    High school athletics have changed a lot over the recent years in regards to year round training and conditioning. The athletes have gotten bigger, stronger and faster.
    This isn't new nor has it changed in "recent years." It's been year round training for decades and athletes will always be getting bigger, stronger and faster generally speaking. As those averages increase, so do the outliers. Average is still average though. Average just improves over time with improved knowledge and application of that knowledge.
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    Originally Posted by leanandmean78 View Post
    I'm 5'7-5'8 playing football. I weigh 158 lbs and bench 200 lbs. I squat 305 lbs. I'm 17-18% body fat and I need to shed some of that off to paly receiver/safety/corner. Tips please? What to do? I only have 3 months until the summer and my goal is 375 squat(I'm a beginner lifter) and 235 on the bench. I need to be fast though and I can't be too flabby(which I am)
    eat clean
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    I agree here partially. Except that while speed is great, it's actual skill at the position that's the greater factor. Knowing how to handle someone larger than you is great for sure, but worrying about it as something that is happening often is probably a waste of time. As a receiver, you're not going to deal with a lineman very often if at all outside of potentially on special teams. Knowing your strengths and leverage are great skills for sure and this is what separates the good from the average from the bad.



    Perhaps true, but that could also be based on other socioeconomic factors outside of sports. I think the data in that area is going to be rather sparse so we'd both be spit-balling the possibilities. I think where there is a slight disconnect in the discussion is around the "Big Azz Dudes" being your D1 scholarship prospects versus walkons and smaller scholarships (if available) at the D1-NAIA schools. The outliers that everyone wants to talk about are the "Big Azz Dudes" that go on to "real college football."

    As a former D3 player, it's a markedly different game (speed, size, skill, etc) as anyone could imagine. Were there large guys, sure, but not D1 caliber players. My point, if I can clear it up, is that these "Big Azz Dudes" are the outliers that likely move on to scholarshiped D1 ball, but they are the exception rather than the rule regardless of where one lives, plays, etc. There are so many other things to worry about on the field other than size:
    That fast corner that's going to ruin your day because he's going to dominate you.
    The LB that is short, stubby, likes to hit and has great leverage and is jamming your FB into your lane all game.
    The D-end that gets low and dominates the edge and your "Big Azz" tackle.



    This I understand as well. It's even worse now that my son's high school is a "State Championship" program. The egos, the ridiculous money, the insane schedule with travel to San Diego, Hawaii and now Utah is driving up the costs for families. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the equipment. They spend so much money on things like, locker rooms, 6 game jerseys, new and different helmet decals every game, and other stuff it makes my head spin. Yet the equipment and training/development don't seem up to snuff. They take on sponsorships from Under Armor and Gatorade, but it seems none of that money rolls down hill. The boys get no equipment or shoes from UA, and Gatorade gives them chews and drinks....

    They charge us for everything, including summer conditioning now and "camps" so they can begin practice early. It's annoying.

    Yet it seems that none of the money goes toward the kis and their equipment. The pads and equipment remain sparse as you've noted. The increases in size have been coming for many years. The quick size increases may lead to these injuries, but I think you're right with the equipment, but I think there is a training aspect as well. I hear it all the time from my son. I taught him to squat properly two years ago. He came home the other day and said, "Hey dad, I'm squatting 185 for 10 now."

    Skeptical, I asked, "Really? Full and proper depth."

    He responded, "No, that's not the Del Oro way. The coaches going to parallel will cause knee problems."

    I was like, "You do them right, they're clueless."

    That "We do it the DO way" stuff drives me crazy and how many other crappy things are they teaching the kids. One of the big differences I saw when moving to college was the shift in focus to basic technique and skill sets where high school just didn't do that stuff. Kids develop crappy habits and some of these habits cause injury and problems. This isn't to say that the college environment can be perfect, but, anecdotally speaking, from friends and family that played up it tends to subside some.




    This isn't new nor has it changed in "recent years." It's been year round training for decades and athletes will always be getting bigger, stronger and faster generally speaking. As those averages increase, so do the outliers. Average is still average though. Average just improves over time with improved knowledge and application of that knowledge.
    No, I meant I agree with sowilson and mrick that there are a higher percentage of D1 talent in areas of Texas, California and Florida, as well as other larger schools, not just outliers. The recruiting facts can't be argued.
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    Originally Posted by EladMichaeli View Post
    eat clean
    no.
    Basic Football / Sports Training Guide:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=172545001

    Train smart.
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  25. #55
    Cybergenics...it's bomb! lucia316's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by calibacker View Post
    No, I meant I agree with sowilson and mrick that there are a higher percentage of D1 talent in areas of Texas, California and Florida, as well as other larger schools, not just outliers. The recruiting facts can't be argued.
    Yeah, that's not what you said...and it was never argued otherwise as noted by the numbers I posted, but those players individually are still the outliers as they are the ones that are playing D1 ball. They are the exception to the average high schooler regardless of where you're at, not the rule. Those recruiting facts and numbers can't be argued. Read the information above prior to commenting.
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    Yeah, that's not what you
    said...and it was never argued otherwise as noted by the numbers I posted, but those players individually are still the outliers as they are the ones that are playing D1 ball. They are the exception to the average high schooler regardless of where you're at, not the rule. Those recruiting facts and numbers can't be argued. Read the information above prior to commenting.
    With all due respect sir, i don't think you are qualified to give factual statements about the quality of high school football in states like Texas and Florida. Are you a high school or college coach or recruiter ? If not, your just giving your opinion.

    I did read over this ridiculous thread and have to side with the people who are actually connected to the current game. Sowilson made a great point about his sons school and the quality of some of the starters. The larger schools in those states will have several players that are college bound, not all starters , but many more than an "outlier" here or there. Trust me.

    Again unless your a coach or recruiter in Texas or Florida than you are not qualified to make a factual comment on the quality of players in the larger high schools there. It's just your opinion.

    Good day!
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    Cybergenics...it's bomb! lucia316's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by calibacker View Post
    With all due respect sir, i don't think you are qualified to give factual statements about the quality of high school football in states like Texas and Florida. Are you a high school or college coach or recruiter ? If not, your just giving your opinion.

    I did read over this ridiculous thread and have to side with the people who are actually connected to the current game. Sowilson made a great point about his sons school and the quality of some of the starters. The larger schools in those states will have several players that are college bound, not all starters , but many more than an "outlier" here or there. Trust me.

    Again unless your a coach or recruiter in Texas or Florida than you are not qualified to make a factual comment on the quality of players in the larger high schools there. It's just your opinion.

    Good day!
    LOL. The numbers, again see above, don't lie (see the links above).

    Those are factual numbers for all states, including TX, FL and CA, not an opinion. What you're failing to grasp is the overall picture.

    Let me make this easy:
    2.4% of all high school players nationally end up in a D1 program, once more see the numbers linked above.

    Those 2.4% are the outliers. It doesn't matter what state they come from. If state A happens to send more overall, who cares? It's not relevant as it doesn't affect the overall numbers. 2.4% is 2.4% and they are the outliers that end up playing D1 ball. Just because school A might have 3 D1 bound players and school B might have 1, it's still the same odds overall. Most players will be average, not outliers. That is the inherent statistics.

    You're failing to grasp the concept of outliers and statistics.

    Why would I trust you? Are you a recruiter or coach in these states? What makes you assume that they are more connected to the game than me? It's a poor assumption. I have a son that plays high school football and, just a note, I'm a private coach for high school players. Aw snap. Also coached at at D3 college. Aw snap again.
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    Originally Posted by lucia316 View Post
    LOL. The numbers, again see above, don't lie (see the links above).

    Those are factual numbers for all states, including TX, FL and CA, not an opinion. What you're failing to grasp is the overall picture.

    Let me make this easy:
    2.4% of all high school players nationally end up in a D1 program, once more see the numbers linked above.

    Those 2.4% are the outliers. It doesn't matter what state they come from. If state A happens to send more overall, who cares? It's not relevant as it doesn't affect the overall numbers. 2.4% is 2.4% and they are the outliers that end up playing D1 ball. Just because school A might have 3 D1 bound players and school B might have 1, it's still the same odds overall. Most players will be average, not outliers. That is the inherent statistics.

    You're failing to grasp the concept of outliers and statistics.

    Why would I trust you? Are you a recruiter or coach in these states? What makes you assume that they are more connected to the game than me? It's a poor assumption. I have a son that plays high school football and, just a note, I'm a private coach for high school players. Aw snap. Also coached at at D3 college. Aw snap again.
    Again Sir, this whole thread is a matter of semantics. Whoever said anything about D1 and your 2.4 % includes small schools in Montana, etc and possibly your son's school. Go back and read the original post about bad azz players in Texas and Florida.

    The whole argument, as I see it, is about a player who starts for a large school in states like Texas or Florida and will they play against "bad ass" players. The answer to that question is yes they will. No not every starter for these large schools is a college bound player, but most certainly more than an outlier here or there. The recruiting links don't lie (D1, D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA)

    Again, how many 6A games have you been to recently in Texas? I'm guessing the answer to that is zero. There is no way you can make a comment about that.

    I will give you that, from your experience with your son and his school , you are right that there probably are not any "bad ass" players, except for an outlier here or there, but this argument is about large schools in a Texas and Florida, which you can't comment on.

    I did go back and read over all the posts and find it funny that you just now bring up being a D3 coach and a private coach (whatever that is)...hmmmm


    This discussion is over. The numbers don't lie. To sum up if a player starts for a large school in Texas or Florida, they will be playing against some bad ass players.

    Capish!
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    Well done, people. A kid asks a question and you manage to turn it into a pissing contest between anonymous internet know-alls. Well done. Pat yourselves on the back.

    Here's the rub. If you think a kid who is 5'8" can't play varsity ball, then perhaps you need to talk with Darren Sproles. In the meantime, how about you quit the worthless amateur hour analysis into high school player sizes and do something worthwhile on here?

    Just a thought.....
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    Originally Posted by krakkerz View Post
    Well done, people. A kid asks a question and you manage to turn it into a pissing contest between anonymous internet know-alls. Well done. Pat yourselves on the back.

    Here's the rub. If you think a kid who is 5'8" can't play varsity ball, then perhaps you need to talk with Darren Sproles. In the meantime, how about you quit the worthless amateur hour analysis into high school player sizes and do something worthwhile on here?

    Just a thought.....
    Completely agree. I was simply stating I agreed with the posts of Sowilson and rick on this topic.
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