Westside For Skinny Bastards Part 3 Questions

[jkhawaja12]

Hello, I started doing the Westside For Skinny Bastards Part 3 and I have some questions that you guys can answer

Questions: 1. For Max Effort Upper Body, it says work up to a max set of 3-5 reps, say i am doing 145 for 5 reps, how would i warm up for that
2. Say if i am doing resistance band bench press, how much weight should i put on when i am doing my max set of 3-5 reps
3. He dosen't talk about nutrition in his template so i wanted to know how would nutrition go with this program.
4. How many weeks should i wait before i alternate to another exercise? Say for example i do bench press for max effort upper body on monday, how many weeks should i wait before i choose another exercise from the Max Effort Upper Body?

[kingmode]

First off.. you never thanked me for that PM I sent you so I dont even know why I'm helping you here.

1. The warm up depends on how you like to acclimate to be ready for that top set.
example:
Bar x12
75 x8
90 x5
110 x5
125 x5
135 x5
145 x5

the stronger you are the more sets you need and the bigger the weight jumps are from set to set.

2. dont do any resistance band stuff at your current level. do the basic lifts.. resistance band stuff is more for advanced guys or for breaking platues... you dont need that right now.

3. http://rippedbody.jp/complete-diet-n...-set-up-guide/
read this. learn. implement what your learned.

4. this was one of my main mistakes when I ran WSFSB3 as a teen. during the inital learning process of an exercise no muscle is build! of course as you advance in your career your body gains more knowledge of exercises and exercises can bet rotated more frequently.
compounds should always remain constant or only be changed after a long period of time. accessory lifts can be switched more frequently (every 6 weeks or more). BUT at your stage this is completely unnecessary. advanced athletes can benefit from this but everyone else should not rotate exercises constantly.
choose your exercises and stick to them. Remember that progressive overload is key for strength and hypertrophy gains! variety is often very overrated. the degree of variety we need is much less than most people think.
dont forget that strength is movement and rep range specific.. meaning that a big bench doesnt mean you have a good OHP.. just because you can squat 405 for 3 reps doesn't mean 315 for 10 reps is easy.

[jkhawaja12]

First off.. you never thanked me for that PM I sent you so I dont even know why I'm helping you here.

1. The warm up depends on how you like to acclimate to be ready for that top set.
example:
Bar x12
75 x8
90 x5
110 x5
125 x5
135 x5
145 x5

the stronger you are the more sets you need and the bigger the weight jumps are from set to set.

2. dont do any resistance band stuff at your current level. do the basic lifts.. resistance band stuff is more for advanced guys or for breaking platues... you dont need that right now.


3. this was one of my main mistakes when I ran WSFSB3 as a teen. during the inital learning process of an exercise no muscle is build! of course as you advance in your career your body gains more knowledge of exercises and exercises can bet rotated more frequently.
compounds should always remain constant or only be changed after a long period of time. accessory lifts can be switched more frequently (every 6 weeks or more). BUT at your stage this is completely unnecessary. advanced athletes can benefit from this but everyone else should not rotate exercises constantly.
choose your exercises and stick to them. Remember that progressive overload is key for strength and hypertrophy gains! variety is often very overrated. the degree of variety we need is much less than most people think.
dont forget that strength is movement and rep range specific.. meaning that a big bench doesnt mean you have a good OHP.. just because you can squat 405 for 3 reps doesn't mean 315 for 10 reps is easy.

I'm sorry, I don't know what PM means and thank you very much for answering my questions it means a lot for me

I have a question for u,
1. Since i want to work on both my squat and deadlift how would i alternate my excercise on Max Effort Lower Body?
2. How many pounds would i add each week for bench and squat
3. How many times can i repeat this Workout Program?

[sowilson]

1. Since i want to work on both my squat and deadlift how would i alternate my excercise on Max Effort Lower Body?
2. How many pounds would i add each week for bench and squat
3. How many times can i repeat this Workout Program?

Reread the program and then go back and read the 1st and 2nd installments of the WS4SB program. Its basis is the conjugate system which is a bit different that other programs. So, to answer your questions

1) Do Squat one week, Deadlift the next week. Or three weeks of squats followed by three weeks of dead lifts. Variation is a part of this program so you don't keep picking the same exercise every week forever, you do need to mix it up (say 3 weeks). Joe likes to do more unilateral work than a lot of programs and that's not a bad idea (others like Mike Boyle do similar).
2) Pounds per week? Hard to tell, everyone is different. You could try 20 pounds for lower body and 10 pounds for upper body. If that's too much then cut that in half, or even half again.
3)There is no beginning or end to this program you can run it forever: it's one of the main elements of the conjugate system. If you go over to a full Westside system then you might run 3 week periodic waves in it (you can do that to this) and you'll do more squats or deadlifts. It's very different than the periodization of other programs. You should pick up some of Louie's books and have a read on Westside.

[theFutureD]

I don't think you should run WS4SB 3 basing off of the look from your lifts because it's a much more advanced program for you. You should actually start from the 1st part of WS4SB, don't change the lifts often because you need to stick with them so you can develop some technical efficiency at them and eat like a beast everyday. You could throw in a 4th workout.. a GPP day like running with sled or something like that.. it won't hurt.

As for doing both squat and deadlifts.. you should pick between one of those and get strong at it. Don't sweat it too much. I'd recommend for you a squat rather than a deadlift. If you have access to a trap bar deadlift, which is a combo of both, even better. If not... go with a squat variant and get better at it. And eat every meal like it's your last.

[kingmode]

I'm sorry, I don't know what PM means and thank you very much for answering my questions it means a lot for me

I have a question for u,
1. Since i want to work on both my squat and deadlift how would i alternate my excercise on Max Effort Lower Body?
2. How many pounds would i add each week for bench and squat
3. How many times can i repeat this Workout Program?

PM = Personal Message

1. Training Westside style would mean most of the time you'd alternate this lifts every 3 weeks. but as i said before strength is specific to movements. your body needs to learn the motor patterns and adapt.
one of the main reasons I made slow progress when I was a teen and running WSFSB was that I rotated all my lifts so frequently that I barely made any progress. once again.. choose your exercises and stick to them.
now, for the squat and deadlift that is not a dumb question.. since there are quite a few programs that alternate these. doing it westside style would mean you'd alternate every 3 weeks.
BUT since you need to get your stats up and what I said before.. you need to engrain the movement in your body and practice it a lot. that is why i do not recommend for really inexperienced guys to run WSFSB.
you should already be proficient at squatting and deadlifting if you plan on running WSFSB.

However if for the sake of doing this program you decide to run it then focus on squatting since squatting has a big carryover to deadlifting but not the other way around.

2. That depends on how fast you are able to progress.. when I ran WSFSB I was a beginner even tho i trained for quiet a while(and should've run another program because the progress on WSFSB is pretty slow for beginners) I was able to add 5kg/10lbs every two weeks.
I did it like this for the main lifts: example:
Week 1: top set 200lbs x3
Week 2: top set 200lbs x5
Week 3: top set 210lbs x3
Week 4: top set 210lbs x5
etc.

3. You can run this program forever but my advise is that you don't run it because your lifts are still pretty low. There are a lot of other programs that encourage faster progress than WSFSB.. once you get more advanced you can jump on WSFSB.

If you give me your height, weight and age plus your stats I could write up a program for you.

[jkhawaja12]

PM = Personal Message

1. Training Westside style would mean most of the time you'd alternate this lifts every 3 weeks. but as i said before strength is specific to movements. your body needs to learn the motor patterns and adapt.
one of the main reasons I made slow progress when I was a teen and running WSFSB was that I rotated all my lifts so frequently that I barely made any progress. once again.. choose your exercises and stick to them.
now, for the squat and deadlift that is not a dumb question.. since there are quite a few programs that alternate these. doing it westside style would mean you'd alternate every 3 weeks.
BUT since you need to get your stats up and what I said before.. you need to engrain the movement in your body and practice it a lot. that is why i do not recommend for really inexperienced guys to run WSFSB.
you should already be proficient at squatting and deadlifting if you plan on running WSFSB.

However if for the sake of doing this program you decide to run it then focus on squatting since squatting has a big carryover to deadlifting but not the other way around.

2. That depends on how fast you are able to progress.. when I ran WSFSB I was a beginner even tho i trained for quiet a while(and should've run another program because the progress on WSFSB is pretty slow for beginners) I was able to add 5kg/10lbs every two weeks.
I did it like this for the main lifts: example:
Week 1: top set 200lbs x3
Week 2: top set 200lbs x5
Week 3: top set 210lbs x3
Week 4: top set 210lbs x5
etc.

3. You can run this program forever but my advise is that you don't run it because your lifts are still pretty low. There are a lot of other programs that encourage faster progress than WSFSB.. once you get more advanced you can jump on WSFSB.

If you give me your height, weight and age plus your stats I could write up a program for you.

I am 5'8.5", i weigh 160 and i am 15 years old

[jkhawaja12]

PM = Personal Message

1. Training Westside style would mean most of the time you'd alternate this lifts every 3 weeks. but as i said before strength is specific to movements. your body needs to learn the motor patterns and adapt.
one of the main reasons I made slow progress when I was a teen and running WSFSB was that I rotated all my lifts so frequently that I barely made any progress. once again.. choose your exercises and stick to them.
now, for the squat and deadlift that is not a dumb question.. since there are quite a few programs that alternate these. doing it westside style would mean you'd alternate every 3 weeks.
BUT since you need to get your stats up and what I said before.. you need to engrain the movement in your body and practice it a lot. that is why i do not recommend for really inexperienced guys to run WSFSB.
you should already be proficient at squatting and deadlifting if you plan on running WSFSB.

However if for the sake of doing this program you decide to run it then focus on squatting since squatting has a big carryover to deadlifting but not the other way around.

2. That depends on how fast you are able to progress.. when I ran WSFSB I was a beginner even tho i trained for quiet a while(and should've run another program because the progress on WSFSB is pretty slow for beginners) I was able to add 5kg/10lbs every two weeks.
I did it like this for the main lifts: example:
Week 1: top set 200lbs x3
Week 2: top set 200lbs x5
Week 3: top set 210lbs x3
Week 4: top set 210lbs x5
etc.

3. You can run this program forever but my advise is that you don't run it because your lifts are still pretty low. There are a lot of other programs that encourage faster progress than WSFSB.. once you get more advanced you can jump on WSFSB.

If you give me your height, weight and age plus your stats I could write up a program for you.

My Stats:

Bench Press: 160
Squat: 245
Deadlift: 225
Vertical Jump: 28"
40 Yard Dash: 5.00
Hang Clean: 120
Military Press: 95

[sowilson]

I'll disagree with Kingmode on WS4SB being an advanced program. It was designed originally for real skinny guys but has become very popular (and versions 2 and 3 reflect this) for high school football players. I do agree that in the beginning you don't need to swap up exercises every three weeks and that you would be well served in developing facility with a lift before adding more. So, if you haven't lifted before, you could easily run with just squats and flat benches for your max lifts for a number of months before switching them up, but you do need to realize that fundamental to the program is variation (conjugate method). If you read up on Westside (not just Joe DeFranco's version) you'll see a lot of folk's who work on improving their squat without doing normal back squats for a long time (box squats, chain versions, etc), or improving their bench by doing OHP for a significant amount of time. The nice thing about Joe's writing is how he simplified it a bit for younger, less experienced athletes.

So, if you choose WS4SB and you don't want to change lifts every 3 weeks then what should you do? One way would be to pick an upper body and lower body max lift exercise (squat and bench press). Then progressively overload them (adding weight each week) until your progress slows down or you find a sticking point. Then change exercises and work on those. While doing this make sure that you choose complimentary supplemental exercises in your program (i.e. RDL's for squat), and that you vary the supplemental exercises to maintain good balance.

[kingmode]

I'll disagree with Kingmode on WS4SB being an advanced program. It was designed originally for real skinny guys but has become very popular (and versions 2 and 3 reflect this) for high school football players.

well, I ran WSFSB3 for 40+ weeks combined and WSFSB1 for 10 weeks .. so almost one entire year of WSFSB combined. I think I'm pretty familiar with Joe D's programs.
No offense, man, but IMO a beginner would waste so much fast progress with WSFSB plus they don't have the knowledge when it comes to picking exercises. A beginner needs to repeat the big lifts multiple times per week to develop skill and the correct motor patterns. Form needs to be engrained to ensure that he can safely overload these exercises.
With the WSFSB programs he would have to wait an entire week before he can practice the lift again. Plus since you only work up to a top set you only have one really heavy set... if you mess that set up with bad form you have no other working set to correct your mistakes or analyze them plus you have to wait one week before doing the lift again.

I agree with the rest of what you said but still, speaking from experience, IMO this workout is not optimal for beginners. I don't doubt that it would improve a beginner but for beginners it is not thr right approach.

[sowilson]

Kingmode, no offense but you're one person who ran it one time and didn't see results. Yours is antidotal and only speaks to you, not to folk's in general. You really can't use your failure to see results on the way you ran Joe's program as evidence that the program doesn't work, is useless, or won't work for reasonably inexperienced lifters. You are one datapoint in a sea of many and plenty other of relatively inexperienced users have had success on Joe's programs. Your conclusions are not supported by just one observation (yours). You complain about picking exercises, you complain about form breaks, you complain about not knowing lifts. This can be said of any program. A beginner starting out on their own with only themselves to work with is going to waste time on any program. Anyone new to lifting should work out with others or a coach to work with to learn the lifts. The number of lifts to choose from in WS4SB is enough to provide variation and keep the program interesting but there is nothing that says you have to do all of them from day one. Did you ever consider that your lack of success on WS4SB was due to your lack of knowledge, having a lack of resources or direction to succeed and not on the program itself? I would agree that WS4SB would be best introduced by a coach to a group of athletes (which has been done successfully in numerous high schools) but that a relatively inexperienced lifter can be successful on WS4SB assuming they have access to support/training on how to perform the exercises correctly. Any program an inexperienced lifter does is going to be less than optimal if they don't have access to proper coaching.

[theFutureD]

I'll disagree with Kingmode on WS4SB being an advanced program. It was designed originally for real skinny guys but has become very popular (and versions 2 and 3 reflect this) for high school football players. I do agree that in the beginning you don't need to swap up exercises every three weeks and that you would be well served in developing facility with a lift before adding more. So, if you haven't lifted before, you could easily run with just squats and flat benches for your max lifts for a number of months before switching them up, but you do need to realize that fundamental to the program is variation (conjugate method). If you read up on Westside (not just Joe DeFranco's version) you'll see a lot of folk's who work on improving their squat without doing normal back squats for a long time (box squats, chain versions, etc), or improving their bench by doing OHP for a significant amount of time. The nice thing about Joe's writing is how he simplified it a bit for younger, less experienced athletes.

So, if you choose WS4SB and you don't want to change lifts every 3 weeks then what should you do? One way would be to pick an upper body and lower body max lift exercise (squat and bench press). Then progressively overload them (adding weight each week) until your progress slows down or you find a sticking point. Then change exercises and work on those. While doing this make sure that you choose complimentary supplemental exercises in your program (i.e. RDL's for squat), and that you vary the supplemental exercises to maintain good balance.

Personally.. once I found out about the program (WS4SB 3) I ran it for sometime and I gained about a lot of muscle. However, I have to say that when I did that (did almost 6 months of regular beginner training) original template, I had a lot of problem with that changing of the ME exercises consistently. I just couldn't get that technique because once I did started making progress... I had to change the lift.. did few other variations, came back to the starting point and barely an improvement. However, to my fault, I didn't understand the program nor its principles either.

Still.. I saw a lot better progress when I didn't switch the exercises but instead stayed with the ME lift for longer time. This allowed me to have much better technique and have better progress on them with adding either reps or more pounds and have better progress on just about everything in general.

[sowilson]

The only mention in WS4SB of how often to change max lifts is in the original program where Joe says

I recommend rotating your max-effort exercise every two to three weeks to prevent your nervous system from getting burned out. Whether you shoot for a 3-rep max or a 5-rep max, the goal is to break your previous record every week!

. Then at the end of the original program Joe gives the best advice of all

There’s a lot of room for variety in this training template. That’s what I love about it. Get creative and find out what works for you!

. Obviously, if you're progressing each week on bench or squat and feel good about it keep going. You might want to do 3 weeks of bench, 1 week of OHP, or 2 weeks of Squat, 1 week box squat, 1 week dead lifts. If you truly read and comprehend what Joe is saying in his WS4SB writings, he's telling you to find what works for you. This is consistent with Louie's various books and blog entries by folk's who've lifted at Westside.
Now, that may be too much variation for a complete noobie who's training alone, but you could run this program during your HS football years and be successful without hitting plateaus. The key is understanding the flexibility inherent in the program and let progress be your guide.

[kingmode]

@sowilson:
You constantly mention that I failed when i ran WSFSB and that I had no success at all. I dont know where you getting that from.
WSFSB was a great experience for me. I made good strength improvements and learned a lot about training and programming.

Man, listen, seriously.
I never said the program does not work. I never said Joe D's stuff doesn't work. To this day I follow him on social media, listen to his podcasts, read his blogs posts etc.
I did not complain about anything. I gave reasonable points to why a beginner would benefit from different programs more. WSFSB gets thrown around too losely without any guidance on how to properly use it.

Of course i talk about my experience on the program. why would i not? I even said that I am speaking from experience. Yeah, im just one of many.. but that does not mean my opinion is irrelevant.

you mention my lack of success with WSFSB... again, where did you hear that? I have reviews of the WSFSB programs in my log. did you check them out? Please dont make things up..

WSFSB can, no doubt, be an effective program BUT for a complete beginner this is not the best approach. A novice that has been lifting for a bit.. that is a different story.
Let us end it at that. I say a complete noobie should get more practice in with the main lifts and consider WSFSB after getting the main lifts down.

[jkhawaja12]

@sowilson:
You constantly mention that I failed when i ran WSFSB and that I had no success at all. I dont know where you getting that from.
WSFSB was a great experience for me. I made good strength improvements and learned a lot about training and programming.

Man, listen, seriously.
I never said the program does not work. I never said Joe D's stuff doesn't work. To this day I follow him on social media, listen to his podcasts, read his blogs posts etc.
I did not complain about anything. I gave reasonable points to why a beginner would benefit from different programs more. WSFSB gets thrown around too losely without any guidance on how to properly use it.

Of course i talk about my experience on the program. why would i not? I even said that I am speaking from experience. Yeah, im just one of many.. but that does not mean my opinion is irrelevant.

you mention my lack of success with WSFSB... again, where did you hear that? I have reviews of the WSFSB programs in my log. did you check them out? Please dont make things up..

WSFSB can, no doubt, be an effective program BUT for a complete beginner this is not the best approach. A novice that has been lifting for a bit.. that is a different story.
Let us end it at that. I say a complete noobie should get more practice in with the main lifts and consider WSFSB after getting the main lifts down.

I have to workout today so if i shouldn't do Westside for Skinny Bastards what workout should i do then?

[sowilson]

OP, if you could, answer the following questions.

What year are you in school at present (freshman, sophomore)?
Assuming you're in High School, are you participating in any sports now (spring season)?
Does your school offer a summer Strength and Conditioning program?
What's your goal (getting ready for football in August, look good at the beach, etc)?
What is your experience lifting and who taught you and/or supervised you?

[jkhawaja12]

OP, if you could, answer the following questions.

What year are you in school at present (freshman, sophomore)?
Assuming you're in High School, are you participating in any sports now (spring season)?
Does your school offer a summer Strength and Conditioning program?
What's your goal (getting ready for football in August, look good at the beach, etc)?
What is your experience lifting and who taught you and/or supervised you?

1. I am a Sophmore
2. I am not participating in any spring sports
3. Yes but you have to pay $100 and i don't have that much money
4. My goal is becoming stronger in football so i can be on varsity while looking good everywhere else, I want people to notice me and be like, how can i get a body like him
5. I have 2 years experience in lifting and I started weightlifitng in 7th grade when i was trying out for football and my coaches were supervising me
I had to work hard to get where I am today with weightlifting

[sowilson]

I would highly recommend that you take part in your school's summer S&C program. If you're currently receiving school lunch aid or other discounts due to family financial situations you might be able to sign up for the summer program at reduced or no cost. This is a great opportunity to bond with your teammates and show your coaches that you're serious. You'll also be lifting with others and this is great motivation for you to work harder. It can be tough working out on your own to maintain motivation.

Have you read and understand the WS4SB program (versions 1, 2, and 3). Are you familiar with the lifts? If you find it confusing or are unfamiliar with many of the lifts then find something different. I personnaly like the WS4SB program and think that following it early (like now through June) would be great for strength building and then spend 4-8 weeks with the sprint/running work template prior to training camp in August (so transition from strength to power from no until camp). But this requires a fair bit of knowledge and one should read Louie's Westside Methods book too. Variations of Parks 5x5 or Rippetoe's Starting Strength program would be good but you may have already progressed past the basic versions and would be better served by a 4 day/week Upper/Lower split (WS4SB but incorporating some of the "not so skinny bastards" exercises). For example, take a look at Rippetoe's book that came out after Starting Strength.

Another path you could take is to take a look at High Schools who publish their summer S&C programs on line. For example http://www.salisburyschool.org/page.cfm?p=1479 . Personally, I tend to like programs that incorporate Squats, Bench Press, Power Cleans or Hang Cleans, RDL's, rows and similar, pull ups, triceps work (lying triceps extensions), GHD, and Reverse Hypers. I also like some variation so that tire flips, deadlifts, farmer walks, fireman carries (pair up and carry a teammate who weighs the same as you), and such are included. A program that then transitions to more power work and plyometrics is also good. If you can't afford your schools program why not ask your school's S&C coach to share his program with you and say that you can't afford the $100.

[jkhawaja12]

I would highly recommend that you take part in your school's summer S&C program. If you're currently receiving school lunch aid or other discounts due to family financial situations you might be able to sign up for the summer program at reduced or no cost. This is a great opportunity to bond with your teammates and show your coaches that you're serious. You'll also be lifting with others and this is great motivation for you to work harder. It can be tough working out on your own to maintain motivation.

Have you read and understand the WS4SB program (versions 1, 2, and 3). Are you familiar with the lifts? If you find it confusing or are unfamiliar with many of the lifts then find something different. I personnaly like the WS4SB program and think that following it early (like now through June) would be great for strength building and then spend 4-8 weeks with the sprint/running work template prior to training camp in August (so transition from strength to power from no until camp). But this requires a fair bit of knowledge and one should read Louie's Westside Methods book too. Variations of Parks 5x5 or Rippetoe's Starting Strength program would be good but you may have already progressed past the basic versions and would be better served by a 4 day/week Upper/Lower split (WS4SB but incorporating some of the "not so skinny bastards" exercises). For example, take a look at Rippetoe's book that came out after Starting Strength.

Another path you could take is to take a look at High Schools who publish their summer S&C programs on line. For example . Personally, I tend to like programs that incorporate Squats, Bench Press, Power Cleans or Hang Cleans, RDL's, rows and similar, pull ups, triceps work (lying triceps extensions), GHD, and Reverse Hypers. I also like some variation so that tire flips, deadlifts, farmer walks, fireman carries (pair up and carry a teammate who weighs the same as you), and such are included. A program that then transitions to more power work and plyometrics is also good. If you can't afford your schools program why not ask your school's S&C coach to share his program with you and say that you can't afford the $100.

i told him that last year and he let me do the program for free

[sowilson]

i told him that last year and he let me do the program for free

Did you progress on the program you did last year? Were you satisfied with it? If so, I would try to to convince them to let you do the program again for free or at a reduced cost.

[jkhawaja12]

Did you progress on the program you did last year? Were you satisfied with it? If so, I would try to to convince them to let you do the program again for free or at a reduced cost.

I felt like i did not progress on the program because when I tested my 40 yard dash it was the same time as the one after the program and i felt that i became weaker after the program

[sowilson]

What was the program? As for the 40, what training did you do for it? I want you to read the following, you might find it useful http://startingstrength.com/articles...g_reynolds.pdf

[jkhawaja12]

[QUOTE=sowilson;1437110471]What was the program? As for the 40, what training did you do for it? I want you to read the following, you might find it useful

I forget what the program was, as for the 40 i remember we would do some resistance hill sprints, resistance sprints, regular sprints, speed ladder drills, resistance agility drills, and weightlifting