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  1. #31
    Registered User Rushie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    That type of focus, yes.

    Smooth, no jitters, zoned in. Took it this morning and I'm running on 5 hours of sleep today when I usually get 8.
    Come on, now. I can get exactly that on 2/3 scoop of Mesomorph which is about 200mg caffeine and 40mg of DMAA. And I rarely sleep more than 6-7 hours per night.

    It would take someone seriously addicted to stims to need the amount of stims you described to achieve a simple "zoned in" focus and enough energy for 4-5 hours. I'd say stim breaks were made for those situations.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by powercage View Post
    That was my experience with Maximize Intense. Great energy
    Originally Posted by XCriticalBenchX View Post
    Purus Labs Muscle Marinade was the first product with DMAA that absolutely rocked my mind in a good way.

    Mike
    Max Intense(DMAA version) and Muscle Marinade have been the best PWOs I have ever used. Always amazing workouts and the focus was stellar.
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  3. #33
    Registered User kissdadookie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rushie View Post
    Come on, now. I can get exactly that on 2/3 scoop of Mesomorph which is about 200mg caffeine and 40mg of DMAA. And I rarely sleep more than 6-7 hours per night.

    It would take someone seriously addicted to stims to need the amount of stims you described to achieve a simple "zoned in" focus and enough energy for 4-5 hours. I'd say stim breaks were made for those situations.
    VERY VERY VERY different. You're assuming that I've never used Mesomorph. Mg for mg AMP is weaker, so back to what I originally stated, it's dose dependent but AMP is not necessarily worse than DMAA. I do like both.

    As for stim breaks, don't feel like I need it because 1 scoop of God of Rage still works well for me and so does 1 scoop of Dust V.2. 1 scoop of Onward also still works well and so does 2 scoops of C4. They all have different feels as well as how hard they hit and how long they take to hit.

    Also note, you said you rarely get more than 6-7 hours of sleep. That is YOUR norm, my norm is 8 hours and it's absolutely consistent for the most part.
    Last edited by kissdadookie; 03-23-2016 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Typo
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  4. #34
    Registered User Rushie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    As for stim breaks, don't feel like I need it because 1 scoop of God of Rage still works well for me and so does 1 scoop of Dust V.2. 1 scoop of Onward also still works well and so does 2 scoops of C4. They all have different feels as well as how hard they hit and how long they take to hit.
    But why on earth would you then say/recommend to someone something as out there as 500mg caffeine and 400mg AMP? makes no sense.
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  5. #35
    Registered User Rushie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post

    Also note, you said you rarely get more than 6-7 hours of sleep. That is YOUR norm, my norm is 8 hours and it's absolutely consistent for the most part.
    But still, even if you had 2-3 hours less sleep than normal one time doesn't mean you need ton of stims to function properly in the gym. It's getting ridiculous reading how much some are ingesting just to get themselves going.
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  6. #36
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    Bottom line you can get a damn good bit of energy/focus with either, and there are good examples of AMP Cit used very good and also 1,3 being utilized very well it is not a 1 or the other I have and use both and get a really good feel on either.

    God of War RED uses AMP Cit and is currently my favorite pre workout, and I have God of Rage on hand which uses 1,3 and a host of others.

    Originally Posted by Rushie View Post
    It's getting ridiculous reading how much some are ingesting just to get themselves going.
    Meh

    Gettin work done breh not using 500-600mg caffeine myself, but I would think most would consider my intake as fairly high not going to judge someone else or worry what some other grown fkn person uses tbh.

    Edit: There many on this forum and others talkin how much 300-400mg of caffeine is meanwhile on fb/outside the forums they are downing 600mg++ ( at a time ) caffeine with tabs of ephedrine and other stimulants, even seen some forum bros stacking several grams of nitrates enough that I would prob cause me to become fairly sick.
    Last edited by Rob1882; 03-23-2016 at 08:15 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by Rob1882 View Post
    Bottom line you can get a damn good bit of energy/focus with either, and there are good examples of AMP Cit used very good and also 1,3 being utilized very well it is not a 1 or the other I have and use both and get a really good feel on either.

    God of War RED uses AMP Cit and is currently my favorite pre workout, and I have God of Rage on hand which uses 1,3 and a host of others.
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  8. #38
    Registered User kissdadookie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rushie View Post
    But why on earth would you then say/recommend to someone something as out there as 500mg caffeine and 400mg AMP? makes no sense.
    As out there? It's not really all that out there. It's pretty aggressive dosing but it's still manageable for some folks that really likes to kick up the stims.

    Originally Posted by Rushie View Post
    But still, even if you had 2-3 hours less sleep than normal one time doesn't mean you need ton of stims to function properly in the gym. It's getting ridiculous reading how much some are ingesting just to get themselves going.
    That's what you are assuming. I drop 100-200 calories one day and I'm going to feel the effects of that the very next day. I lose 3 hours of sleep, I'm going to feel that the next day. I literally am at a point where I fall asleep at the same time every night and wake up with no need for an alarm clock at 4AM on the nose.

    You know what's ridiculous? That you're making all these assumptions. First and foremost, you don't even have a clue what my training is like so all you have to base things on is your own style of training which may very well be something that I can easily go through with no stims at all.

    End of the day, I can flip this around and ridicule you for your low stim tolerance but I'm not because I'm not you and I don't know what your preferences are for stimulants. Bottom line here is that I was pointing out how DMAA is not really better than AMP. In fact, even with such high amounts in two scoops of God of War Black, it's actually much smoother for me than just ONE scoop of Angel Dust V.2.
    Last edited by kissdadookie; 03-23-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    As out there? It's not really all that out there. It's pretty aggressive dosing but it's still manageable for some folks that really likes to kick up the stims.



    That's what you are assuming. I drop 100-200 calories one day and I'm going to feel the effects of that the very next day. I lose 3 hours of sleep, I'm going to feel that the next day. I literally am at a point where I fall asleep at the same time every night and wake up with no need for an alarm clock at 4AM on the nose.

    You know what's ridiculous? That you're making all these assumptions. First and foremost, you don't even have a clue what my training is like so all you have to base things on is your own style of training which may very well be something that I can easily go through with no stims at all.

    End of the day, I can flip this around and ridicule you for your low stim tolerance but I'm not because I'm not you and I don't know what your preferences are for stimulants. Bottom line here is that I was pointing out how DMAA is not really better than AMP. In fact, even with such high amounts in two scoops of God of War Black, it's actually much smoother for me than just ONE scoop of Angel Dust V.2.
    2016, a time were people are ridiculed for relatively lower stim intakes. What a world we live in.
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  10. #40
    Registered User kissdadookie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by noaddedhormones View Post
    2016, a time were people are ridiculed for relatively lower stim intakes. What a world we live in.
    2016 and some companies are trying to bring back dat der good ole amentoflavone. TD must work amiright?

    Still waiting for you to back up how that pea carb you guys have is as good or better than HBCD or Vitargo. Oh right, low insulin response... you know... because that thing processes slow AF and thus is pointless as a pre/intra carb source. Gatorade would be superior there.

    Lastly, where did I ridicule? I said I could ridicule him because it's the same thing Rushie was doing, but I didn't because I don't know what his tolerances, personal chemistry, training style, etc. is like.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by noaddedhormones View Post
    2016, a time were people are ridiculed for relatively lower stim intakes. What a world we live in.
    Worse things going on in the world to be honest.

    Can't we just not argue and agree upon some love stims and extras while others get their workouts going with as little as nothing but mental motivation. Others down a cup of coffee and some oats and some a doughnut. Everyone is different and just do what works for you.
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  12. #42
    Registered User noaddedhormones's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    2016 and some companies are trying to bring back dat der good ole amentoflavone. TD must work amiright?


    Still waiting for you to back up how that pea carb you guys have is as good or better than HBCD or Vitargo. Oh right, low insulin response... you know... because that thing processes slow AF and thus is pointless as a pre/intra carb source. Gatorade would be superior there.

    Lastly, where did I ridicule? I said I could ridicule him because it's the same thing Rushie was doing, but I didn't because I don't know what his tolerances, personal chemistry, training style, etc. is like.
    Paragraph 1: no, no you are not right at all lmao.

    Paragraph 2: lmao you still don't get it, im not going to get into a discussion with you on this. You clearly focus on the irrelevant response rather than overall load time. Not to mention, the carb factor of the intra is of so little importance in the grand scheme of things, its embarrassing and im not getting into a biased bs argument with you.

    Paragraph 3: That wasn't calling you out, just making a stupid comment for the sake of it.
    Last edited by noaddedhormones; 03-23-2016 at 01:01 PM.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    I said I could ridicule him because it's the same thing Rushie was doing, but I didn't because I don't know what his tolerances, personal chemistry, training style, etc. is like.
    Jesus, I wasn't ridiculing you. No need to take everything posted as a direct attack on you. I honestly don't care enough to even consider ridiculing you or your situation.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by noaddedhormones View Post
    Paragraph 1: no, no you are not right at all lmao.

    Paragraph 2: lmao you still don't get it, im not going to get into a discussion with you on this. You clearly focus on the irrelevant response rather than overall load time. Not to mention, the carb factor of the intra is of so little importance in the grand scheme of things, its embarrassing and im not getting into a biased bs argument with you.

    Paragraph 3: That wasn't calling you out, just making a stupid comment for the sake of it.
    1) Not right? Substantiate. Oh wait, you can't because you don't even know the things you sell/rep for. I would like to see you defend how you guys supposedly can get amentoflavone to actually be worth a damn with trans dermal. Oh wait, didn't you guys claim that (-)epi had chit bioavailibility and that's why you used TD? Hmmm, the data on it certainly would not agree with the assumption that it's no good taken orally.

    2) For goodness sakes, you basically stated as much on AM that you essentially have no clue on the subject. You even more or less stated that you don't buy into the whole carbs pre/intra thing, doesn't that then suggest that you don't believe in your products to begin with? LoL. Grand scheme of things? LOL. I like how you've now fallen back to regurgitating forum bro mantra of "overall diet that counts! that's it!" LOL. On one hand your argument is that I don't know what I'm talking about but now on the other hand you're stating that it doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of things and carbs intra isn't really worth much, then why do you guys pimp it in your product? Hmmmmmmmmm.

    Let me quote your ad-copy:

    " ENDUR3+, that includes the Maximum Energy Matrix with 20g of Carb10™ to provide a sustained release of energy to keep you fueled during your workout with minimal GI distress and insulin spike."

    How is that Carb10 going to fuel a workout if from what it appears, the stuff doesn't even get into the system all that quickly for it to be in your system during your workout. Where's this magical fuel going to manifest from? Remember, only thing Carb10 has been compared with has been malto, that is a complex carb. Post workout use and gainer use, it fits the bill. Something to provide fuel during your training? Nope.
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    1) Not right? Substantiate. Oh wait, you can't because you don't even know the things you sell/rep for. I would like to see you defend how you guys supposedly can get amentoflavone to actually be worth a damn with trans dermal. Oh wait, didn't you guys claim that (-)epi had chit bioavailibility and that's why you used TD? Hmmm, the data on it certainly would not agree with the assumption that it's no good taken orally.

    2) For goodness sakes, you basically stated as much on AM that you essentially have no clue on the subject. You even more or less stated that you don't buy into the whole carbs pre/intra thing, doesn't that then suggest that you don't believe in your products to begin with? LoL. Grand scheme of things? LOL. I like how you've now fallen back to regurgitating forum bro mantra of "overall diet that counts! that's it!" LOL. On one hand your argument is that I don't know what I'm talking about but now on the other hand you're stating that it doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of things and carbs intra isn't really worth much, then why do you guys pimp it in your product? Hmmmmmmmmm.

    Let me quote your ad-copy:

    " ENDUR3+, that includes the Maximum Energy Matrix with 20g of Carb10™ to provide a sustained release of energy to keep you fueled during your workout with minimal GI distress and insulin spike."

    How is that Carb10 going to fuel a workout if from what it appears, the stuff doesn't even get into the system all that quickly for it to be in your system during your workout. Where's this magical fuel going to manifest from? Remember, only thing Carb10 has been compared with has been malto, that is a complex carb. Post workout use and gainer use, it fits the bill. Something to provide fuel during your training? Nope.
    And there you have it. No vendetta at all. Nice to see you stalking me on AM can you quote where I said that?? , i feel special.

    And lol there is no TD amento on the cards. I formulate, i know.
    Last edited by noaddedhormones; 03-23-2016 at 02:31 PM.
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    All aboard the stim train...next stop 500mg Caffeine/100mg DMAA a serving. Can't come soon enough to be first onboard.
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  17. #47
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    Originally Posted by shockrock3 View Post
    All aboard the stim train...next stop 500mg Caffeine/100mg DMAA a serving. Can't come soon enough to be first onboard.
    lol
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    DMAA definitely.
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    Originally Posted by noaddedhormones View Post
    And there you have it. No vendetta at all. Nice to see you stalking me on AM can you quote where I said that?? , i feel special.

    And lol there is no TD amento on the cards. I formulate, i know.
    Ask Rob. I don't actually go on AM so I can't actually stalk you there.

    Why do you consistently deflect and not answer the simple question of if you have any data to substantiate Carb10 being worth a damn in a pre/intra product. You formulate right? So you should know, yet you've been deflecting.

    I even quoted your ad copy for your product. Explain instead of deflecting.

    AFI or someone posted his thoughts on your new amento btw. Maybe it's not TD but it's amento nonetheless. You guys appear to be trying to repackage and push nonsense on poor souls not knowing any better. Also please don't try to explain how you guys have a research team of sorts because let's face it, you don't.

    This is what I have been sent:

    "I have been fully sold on the phytofuse technology after beta testing ep1c unleashed. I had used Epi products before and the phyto versions were a night and day difference in terms of effects.

    OL knows they have something good and have taken another supplement and added phytofuse to help enhance its effects-this brings us to Amentofuse.

    Amentoflavone has been out for a while now and had mixed feedback. I myself didn't notice anything from the amentomax I used. That being said, I have high hopes for Amentofuse. "

    You guys are trying to sell amento which is bunk to begin with. Let's face the fact that just because you complex it with cyclic dexterins, that's not going to magically make it worth a damn. A 30, even 50 percent increase in bioavailability which is next to bill to begin with is still next to nill.

    Need I also point out the fact that you guys have been going around claiming cyclic dexterin complexed dhea metabolites is superior to that which are properly encapsulated in liposomes? Lmfao. You do realize that Phyto whatever you call it is simply you guys slapping a TM name to a widely practiced method of preparing compounds for consumption right? One of which AMS used years ago and that basically didn't really improve diddly squat in terms of efficacy.
    Last edited by kissdadookie; 03-23-2016 at 03:57 PM.
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  20. #50
    Registered User noaddedhormones's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Ask Rob. I don't actually go on AM so I can't actually stalk you there.

    Why do you consistently deflect and not answer the simple question of if you have any data to substantiate Carb10 being worth a damn in a pre/intra product. You formulate right? So you should know, yet you've been deflecting.

    I even quoted your ad copy for your product. Explain instead of deflecting.

    AFI or someone posted his thoughts on your new amento btw. Maybe it's not TD but it's amento nonetheless. You guys appear to be trying to repackage and push nonsense on poor souls not knowing any better. Also please don't try to explain how you guys have a research team of sorts because let's face it, you don't.

    This is what I have been sent:

    "I have been fully sold on the phytofuse technology after beta testing ep1c unleashed. I had used Epi products before and the phyto versions were a night and day difference in terms of effects.

    OL knows they have something good and have taken another supplement and added phytofuse to help enhance its effects-this brings us to Amentofuse.

    Amentoflavone has been out for a while now and had mixed feedback. I myself didn't notice anything from the amentomax I used. That being said, I have high hopes for Amentofuse. "

    You guys are trying to sell amento which is bunk to begin with. Let's face the fact that just because you complex it with cyclic dexterins, that's not going to magically make it worth a damn. A 30, even 50 percent increase in bioavailability which is next to bill to begin with is still next to nill.
    You need to get mental help, not even taking a stab at you, I genuinely believe something isn't ticking right in that heads of yours.

    but to finish up this useless conversation, phytofuse is not cyclic dextrins, prehaps understand what a Phytosome is firstly. This product is not being sold, no hype has been made about it. 3 people have tested it and asked for honest feedback. All three loved their runs.

    We still haven't even decided if we are going to run a commercial batch. BTW, orally Ursolic acid is bunk, look at the current literature on how well it is absorbed when bound to PEG liposome. Your argument is invalid from the get go, just because you say so doesnt mean what you are saying is event remotely right, its a shame this forum has lost all members who would call out the sheer bs you post.

    Good luck in life
    Last edited by noaddedhormones; 03-23-2016 at 04:52 PM.
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  21. #51
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    Originally Posted by noaddedhormones View Post
    You need to get mental help, not even taking a stab at you, I genuinely believe something is ticking right in that heads of yours.

    but to finish up this useless conversation, phytofuse is not cyclic dextrins, prehaps understand what a Phytosome is firstly. This product is not being sold, no hype has been made about it. 3 people have tested it and asked for honest feedback. All three loved their runs.

    We still haven't even decided if we are going to run a commercial batch. BTW, orally Ursolic acid is bunk, look at the current literature on how well it is absorbed when bound to PEG liposome. Your argument is invalid from the get go, just because you say so doesnt mean what you are saying is event remotely right, its a shame this forum has lost all members who would call out the sheer bs you post.

    Good luck in life
    You guys are not using phytosomes. Your products use PhytoFUSE or whatever the eff, which is you guys just giving cyclic dexterin complex preparations a TM name. You don't even know what the eff you guys are using and doing. This is absolutely HILARIOUS.
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  22. #52
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    Your ad copy from your site:

    research has shown that this method of delivery can enhance potency anywhere from 2x-6x! That means that EP1C Unleashed is 200 – 600% more potent than Epi alone!

    The above is your copy explaining PhytoFUSE. If you were using phytosomes you would have far better increases to bioavailability than 2x-6x. The compound would theoretically increase bioavailability to near 100% of the compound getting into circulation. That is far more than a mere 2x-6x.

    You literally don't even know what the eff is going on with your own product noaddedhormone. Lmfao. Explain how you only got a mere boost in bioavailability increase of 2x-6x if PhytoFUSE is phytosome technology. Lmfao.
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  23. #53
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    Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    You guys are not using phytosomes. Your products use PhytoFUSE or whatever the eff, which is you guys just giving cyclic dexterin complex preparations a TM name. You don't even know what the eff you guys are using and doing. This is absolutely HILARIOUS.
    Are you serious? stfu.
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  24. #54
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    Originally Posted by noaddedhormones View Post
    Are you serious? stfu.
    When I said phytosome I was thinking cyclosome. Phytosomes are not even that and it is still just a complex and compared to liposomes and cyclosomes, it's laughable. 2x-6x increase of bioavailability of next to nill is still nill. That is what you have with amento. Simple math here. Amento has bioavailability of virtually zero. 2x-6x of zero is zero. No amount of green tea extract and other herbal extracts is going to help you there.

    Should I also point out the absolute asinine nature of your ursolic acid argument? The data shows it is pretty useless orally administered. (-)epi data in humans had been using orally administered (-)epi @ 50 mg once a day, 100 mg once a day, and 50 mg twice a day. The week long data was from 50 mg twice a day ORALLY ADMINISTERED. So how the eff do you think it's comparable to ursolic acid? (-)epi clearly doesn't have the same bioavailability problems.
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    To explain the uselessness of your PhytoFUSE especially in respect to amentoflavone. Biopiperine increases curcumin bioavailability theoretically up to 2000%. TWO THOUSAND PERCENT and you STILL need to dose it in the grams. There's a cyclosome preparation of curcumin and it appears to be considerably more impressive than just combining curcumin with black pepper extract even though black pepper extract theoretically increases bioavailability by 2000%.

    So you're a formulator noaddedhormone yet you don't understand these simple points? Really? Lmfao.
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  26. #56
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    Originally Posted by shockrock3 View Post
    All aboard the stim train...next stop 500mg Caffeine/100mg DMAA a serving. Can't come soon enough to be first onboard.
    Don't forget to throw in betel nut for good measure!
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  27. #57
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    Originally Posted by El Conquistador View Post
    Don't forget to throw in betel nut for good measure!
    Love that betel nut extract AMP and DMAA is better though.
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  28. #58
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    Can we get back to topic now? I'm genuinely interested in people's response to both DMAA and AMP citrate (certanly much more than I'm interested in KDD's latest verbal outbursts that are anything but on topic; I doubt I'm the only one). Switch to PMs or create new topic if you feel like going off on a tangent, please.
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    Originally Posted by Rushie View Post
    Can we get back to topic now? I'm genuinely interested in people's response to both DMAA and AMP citrate (certanly much more than I'm interested in KDD's latest verbal outbursts that are anything but on topic; I doubt I'm the only one). Switch to PMs or create new topic if you feel like going off on a tangent, please.
    Plenty gave feedback on the two. There are volumes of feedback as is on the subject of comparing the two. Tangent? Someone tried to snarky, I returned the favor.
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    This is fun:

    "Free curcumin could not be detected in any plasma samples, in accordance with previous studies that have mostly failed to detect unconjugated curcumin in human plasma even after the administration of megadoses of curcumin."

    That is a quote from the Usana analysis of Meriva. Meriva uses phytosome technology (the actual licensed technology from indena, not something claiming the use of the technology and just slapping their own fancy name on it). So what does that quote suggest? That the phytosome essentially did nothing in terms of protecting the curcumin. They did detect metabolites of curcumin but even that is unlikely for it to effect the targets which free curcumin would have affected.

    Out of the three current forms of specialized curcumin on the market, Meriva appears to demonstrate the least ability to get relevant amounts of free curcumin into circulation. B-95 appears to get the most free curcumin into circulation but the data on it is a little iffy as they may have some issues with how they calculated their results. This leaves Longvida which has the most solid data thus far of being capable of delivering relevant amounts of free curcumin into circulation in humans. Meriva uses phytosomes and Longvida uses what appears to be a form of liposome (SLCP).
    Last edited by kissdadookie; 03-24-2016 at 09:33 AM. Reason: typo
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