My Cholesterol Results After 8 Months Vegan

[AdamWW]

I'll keep it brief, just wanted to share the results.

Had my lipids tested last summer before I started eating vegan, had them tested again after 4 months, and then this morning after 8 months. Results were pretty significant:

Day Before Going Vegan:

Total - 186
HDL - 74
LDL - 102
Tri - 50

4 Months Vegan:

Total - 162
HDL - 59
LDL - 89
Tri - 68

8 Months Vegan (Today):

Total - 132
HDL - 68
LDL - 58
Tri - 30


Didn't go vegan specifically for heart health but hey... kind of nice.

[gbullock32]

Interesting results, but I wonder if it is veganism or just eating 'better' that did it. I say this since arguably the 4 months in results were not so good with the drop in HDL and the high ratio of LDL to HDL.

[AdamWW]

Interesting results, but I wonder if it is veganism or just eating 'better' that did it. I say this since arguably the 4 months in results were not so good with the drop in HDL and the high ratio of LDL to HDL.

I've always had pretty much the same diet with the exception of the dairy (mainly from whey or yogurt) and meat (mainly chicken/turkey)... honestly zero else changed.. always been a huge veggie/fruit/whole food guy... just had some meat/dairy, too.

Only other things I've been eating more of is garlic, but not a huge amount.

In fact, I haven't been using fish oil or omega 3's supps at all, just 2-3 tablespoons of flax seeds a day and some other nuts.

The HDL drop in the middle seems kind of odd, I agree... could just be a random thing based on my diet that week.. who knows... but even 59 is a really good number despite the drop. I'd also say, I think my 4month results were far from 'not soo good'... the ratio was worse, but it was still good.

[desslok]

Would be curious to not change your diet and get a test every week and see the fluctuations. Because if it was purely food based it doesn't make sense to take so long to lower.

[AdamWW]

Would be curious to not change your diet and get a test every week and see the fluctuations. Because if it was purely food based it doesn't make sense to take so long to lower.

Just so I understand, do you mean if I continue this diet it should keep falling at the same rate, or are you saying you're surprised it took 8 months to drop 50+ total cholesterol points? Seemed like good progress IMO considering all I did was cut meat and dairy, and I wasn't even eating much of it.

Keep in mind, I was just as lean and active when I started... it's not as though I was obese or overweight/sedentary before.

[desslok]

Just so I understand, do you mean if I continue this diet it should keep falling at the same rate, or are you saying you're surprised it took 8 months to drop 50+ total cholesterol points? Seemed like good progress IMO considering all I did was cut meat and dairy, and I wasn't even eating much of it.

Keep in mind, I was just as lean and active when I started... it's not as though I was obese or overweight/sedentary before.

No i'm wondering if you didn't change your diet at all and got 3 random tests if the fluctuations would be as much. Because if removing ingested cholesterol was the sourxe of this, i don't see why it would take so long to change. For example, you drink alcohol, it stays in your blood stream for a certaina mount of time. I wouldn't expect your blood alcohol level to keep dropping 8 months after you quit drinking.

[AdamWW]

No i'm wondering if you didn't change your diet at all and got 3 random tests if the fluctuations would be as much. Because if removing ingested cholesterol was the sourxe of this, i don't see why it would take so long to change. For example, you drink alcohol, it stays in your blood stream for a certaina mount of time. I wouldn't expect your blood alcohol level to keep dropping 8 months after you quit drinking.

Ah, gotcha.. I agree... though I'm not sure if I'm up for weekly testing

I might test again in the early summer as a part of my annual physical and see what it says though.

[EmperorRyker]

I've always had pretty much the same diet with the exception of the dairy (mainly from whey or yogurt) and meat (mainly chicken/turkey)... honestly zero else changed.. always been a huge veggie/fruit/whole food guy... just had some meat/dairy, too.

Only other things I've been eating more of is garlic, but not a huge amount.

In fact, I haven't been using fish oil or omega 3's supps at all, just 2-3 tablespoons of flax seeds a day and some other nuts.

The HDL drop in the middle seems kind of odd, I agree... could just be a random thing based on my diet that week.. who knows... but even 59 is a really good number despite the drop. I'd also say, I think my 4month results were far from 'not soo good'... the ratio was worse, but it was still good.

Those are really good results. You went vegan, so obviously there had to be a significant change in your diet, and I think it's hard to tell whether the exclusion of all animal products in and of itself was responsible for this change. I've never done a comparison myself, but on a diet that included animal products (meat, whey, eggs, fish) in all of my meals I was still able to get similar results to yours, but with HDL much higher:

Total - 181
HDL - 119
LDL - 56
VLDL - 6
Tri - 30

So whenever I hear claims of a vegan diet being healthier (I know you just posted your results, so this isn't an attack on your or anything), I wonder how much better could my results really be. I don't see much room for improvement, and that's why I still advocate that a sensible diet that includes animal products, as well, is still the healthiest.

Would be curious to not change your diet and get a test every week and see the fluctuations. Because if it was purely food based it doesn't make sense to take so long to lower.

Hmm, how soon do you think he should have seen such changes, though? I think that a significant change can be seen within a month, but his levels changed more than just enough for significance, so for that kind of a shift his timeline might be fine. And he also said he didn't change his diet that much, so I don't know, seems OK to me.

[desslok]

Hmm, how soon do you think he should have seen such changes, though? I think that a significant change can be seen within a month, .

Thats what I am getting at. I would expext it to occur within a month, and not continue for 7 more months afterwards. Then again there are only 3 data points. ASSUMING its a linear drop based on 3 data points would be just that.

[EmperorRyker]

Thats what I am getting at. I would expext it to occur within a month, and not continue for 7 more months afterwards. Then again there are only 3 data points. ASSUMING its a linear drop based on 3 data points would be just that.

Yeah, I get what you're saying with linearity and with fluctuations you were mentioning above, but I guess I'm still not sure why you think all of the effects of a dietary change would manifest themselves within a month or two and then die off (i.e. why would you exhaust the positive effects within such a short time frame?). You could see a significant change within that time span, but I'm not sure why the trend would have to end as soon as that. So basically what I'm saying is that I'd expect a drop of, say, 10 points within a month (which would signify a positive effect), but that it wouldn't be strange if that then continued despite any further changes. I noticed that with my results, too. I haven't changed my diet that much over time, and my results still slightly improved even over a couple of years.

[AdamWW]

Those are really good results. You went vegan, so obviously there had to be a significant change in your diet, and I think it's hard to tell whether the exclusion of all animal products in and of itself was responsible for this change. I've never done a comparison myself, but on a diet that included animal products (meat, whey, eggs, fish) in all of my meals I was still able to get similar results to yours, but with HDL much higher:

Total - 181
HDL - 119
LDL - 56
VLDL - 6
Tri - 30

So whenever I hear claims of a vegan diet being healthier (I know you just posted your results, so this isn't an attack on your or anything), I wonder how much better could my results really be. I don't see much room for improvement, and that's why I still advocate that a sensible diet that includes animal products, as well, is still the healthiest.

Hmm, how soon do you think he should have seen such changes, though? I think that a significant change can be seen within a month, but his levels changed more than just enough for significance, so for that kind of a shift his timeline might be fine. And he also said he didn't change his diet that much, so I don't know, seems OK to me.

Your HDL was 119??? That's fuggin insane with an LDL that low...... geeze.

I'm not sure I agree about the healthiest diet has to include animal products specifically... I do believe a healthy diets needs lots of variety tho and there are certain things animal products do offer that are on the list of thing you need ... i mean there's really isn't any essential dietary substance in animal products that plant-based diets can't also satisfy, with the exception of b12 which is given as a supplement to livestock anyway... so really, taking a b12 supp yourself isn't so different from eating meat from an animal who supplemented themselves.

But no I'm not saying I think it's definitely healthier... and many factors could be at play.

[AdamWW]

It's a combined effort. Vegans consume more plant sterols than non vegans. Sterols have been proven to reduce cholesterol, increase cardiovascular health, and a lot else. Prepared vegan foods and spreads also have a lot of added sterols in them. Combining that with proven cholesterol lowering foods and you've got great results over time.

Apart from the "better diet" it's safe to say it improves GI health too. The high fiber content of a vegan diet would also improve cholesterol over time.

My staple foods remained identical... I simply replaced chicken/turkey and greek yogurt/whey with lentils/beans/etc for protein... but my intake of green vegetables, fruits, whole grains, etc, stayed exactly the same. I don't deviate too much in my diet because I eat tons of variety already... which sounds contradictory but I honestly consume about 20 different 'foods' every day between grains, veggies, fruits, etc.

I have to agree concerning the digestive health, that actually is why I changed... it's done wonders for my acid reflux and overall digestion (cept the gas).

[Domicron]

appreciate your sharing. my cholesterol numbers aren't great (my hdl is better, trig is great last time, but LDL is still too high) just like my dad and my grandma.

my dad is a vegetarian for over 10 years now and his cholesterol numbers are much improved. i'm not quite sure that it's solely from his switch (he used to eat a lot more junk food) but i don't doubt that it's got at least a little affect.

i'm still working on cutting down the processed carbs and eating more vegetables/fiber and less meat, but it's tough to do sometimes.

will rep on recharge.

whelp, off to costco to buy bread, cheese, and a family size pack of chicken thighs!

and diapers of course, always diapers

[ErikTheElectric]

FANTASTIC news Adam! Nice work.

Interesting results, but I wonder if it is veganism or just eating 'better' that did it. I say this since arguably the 4 months in results were not so good with the drop in HDL and the high ratio of LDL to HDL.

Err... Not really sure what you mean here. 90% of Veganism is theoretically "eating better" AKA Whole food sources: Fruits, Vegetables, Healthy Fats, etc.

[AdamWW]

appreciate your sharing. my cholesterol numbers aren't great (my hdl is better, trig is great last time, but LDL is still too high) just like my dad and my grandma.

my dad is a vegetarian for over 10 years now and his cholesterol numbers are much improved. i'm not quite sure that it's solely from his switch (he used to eat a lot more junk food) but i don't doubt that it's got at least a little affect.

i'm still working on cutting down the processed carbs and eating more vegetables/fiber and less meat, but it's tough to do sometimes.

will rep on recharge.

whelp, off to costco to buy bread, cheese, and a family size pack of chicken thighs!

and diapers of course, always diapers

Hah! Yeah I don't have family history with cholesterol, but my dad does have High BP... thankfully my BP has always been great (usually 105-10 / 60-70) and my resting pulse is quite low (45-50).

FANTASTIC news Adam! Nice work.




Err... Not really sure what you mean here. 90% of Veganism is theoretically "eating better" AKA Whole food sources: Fruits, Vegetables, Healthy Fats, etc.

Thanks dude! I really wasn't expecting the drop.. I mean for most people my original numbers are totally fine.. I was just amazed by how significantly it change. Pretty cool

[EmperorRyker]

Your HDL was 119??? That's fuggin insane with an LDL that low...... geeze.

I'm not sure I agree about the healthiest diet has to include animal products specifically... I do believe a healthy diets needs lots of variety tho and there are certain things animal products do offer that are on the list of thing you need ... i mean there's really isn't any essential dietary substance in animal products that plant-based diets can't also satisfy, with the exception of b12 which is given as a supplement to livestock anyway... so really, taking a b12 supp yourself isn't so different from eating meat from an animal who supplemented themselves.

But no I'm not saying I think it's definitely healthier... and many factors could be at play.

Yeah, I was pretty happy with those results. It was while bulking, too. And looking back, it was a good improvement over my 2012 results:

Total - 201
HDL - 109
LDL - 84
Tri - 39

Not sure what I changed. I might have increased my omega-3 intake a bit, but not by too much. Unfortunately, the levels are probably nowhere near this good right now, ugh.

As for being healthier, the way I see it is that a diet that includes everything is at least as good as a vegan diet. Why? Because if you eat everything, you can still choose a vegan diet, it's just a subtype of the more general one. The set of diets that you allow yourself to choose includes the vegan diet, so it has to be at least as good. But if we go with including animal products specifically, I think the inclusion of at least fish does improve your health. Stuff like eggs also has a lot of vitamins that you might not otherwise get in such quantities eating only vegan. It's hard to really compare, because a vegan diet is not a vegan diet, and an eat everything diet is also not an eat everything diet. Also taking into account individual variability and different genetic composition, I don't think you could ever devise an experiment that would determine which diet really is the healthiest. All we can go off is bits and pieces of scientific literature, but based on what I've read I really do think that if you include fish, you at least break even.

[desslok]

Yeah, I get what you're saying with linearity and with fluctuations you were mentioning above, but I guess I'm still not sure why you think all of the effects of a dietary change would manifest themselves within a month or two and then die off (i.e. why would you exhaust the positive effects within such a short time frame?). You could see a significant change within that time span, but I'm not sure why the trend would have to end as soon as that. So basically what I'm saying is that I'd expect a drop of, say, 10 points within a month (which would signify a positive effect), but that it wouldn't be strange if that then continued despite any further changes. I noticed that with my results, too. I haven't changed my diet that much over time, and my results still slightly improved even over a couple of years.

From the research I have seen, and other literature i have read, it appears that dietary cholesterol intake can affect blood cholesterol by around 10% in normal, healthy individuals. So by going vegan and intaking 0 or near 0 cholesterol, i would expect cholesterol to drop around 10% maximum rather quickly. Just curious as it doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps SOJA's explanation has some merit to the continued decrease.

So why would you expect it to keep going down?

[EmperorRyker]

From the research I have seen, and other literature i have read, it appears that dietary cholesterol intake can affect blood cholesterol by around 10% in normal, healthy individuals. So by going vegan and intaking 0 or near 0 cholesterol, i would expect cholesterol to drop around 10% maximum rather quickly.

So why would you expect it to keep going down? Obviously you know it wouldn't keep going to 0.

No, I wouldn't expect it to go to zero and I'd expect it to level off after a while. But not after only a month. I posted my results above and you can see that there has been a change from 2012 and 2015 despite no huge changes to my diet. I don't have results from an even earlier test at my disposal, but they were worse than in 2012. So with insignificant changes in my diet, my results have been improving for years.

As for the effect of cholesterol on blood levels, I'm not sure about that number, but even if true there are other factors that influence this, as well (fiber, the amount of different fats and so on). So maybe the effect of cholesterol intake would level off quickly, the rest of the improvements could take a while. I don't know, like I said, that has been my experience and I don't see a compelling reason as to why the improvement would necessarily stop so quickly. But I don't have a background in biochemistry, so I'm not to explain how the effects would (or would not!) continue past a certain time point. Do you have any sources that suggest the time line of improvements, by the way?

This is an interesting discussion, though, and I wish there were more like it on the boards. So don't take me disagreeing or questioning you as an attack. I really am just debating.

[desslok]

Do you have any sources that suggest the time line of improvements, by the way?

This is an interesting discussion, though, and I wish there were more like it on the boards. So don't take me disagreeing or questioning you as an attack. I really am just debating.

No. Thats why i was saying things like "i would expect", since its more surprising to me and leaving me curious why. Just since most things ingested only stay in your blood for so long. And even then thats more than a 10% decrease.

[EmperorRyker]

No. Thats why i was saying things like "i would expect", since its more surprising to me and leaving me curious why. Just since most things ingested only stay in your blood for so long. And even then thats more than a 10% decrease.

I wonder how much of an impact gut flora has. From what I've read it can definitely be a difference maker, so perhaps the impact of dietary changes on it is ongoing and that's why you just see things improving over longer time scales.

[AdamWW]

Lentils and other grains have cholesterol lowering properties. Suffice to say, your dumps must be amazing.

I can attest, yes... in fact I used to have very bad and sensitive digestion... but it just hasn't been an issue since I started. But yeah... it can be a bit much sometimes having to go that much more ;o)

I like this discussion as well. I'll plan on getting checked around my birthday (June) and see what the results say then, too. Very curious.

[Domicron]

we bought the kirkland natty pb and what sucks is that no matter how much you stir, the texture is very different when you start than when you finish. when you finish it's visibly dry and harder to spread. maybe it's better if you eat it faster, because ours sits in the fridge for a while between start and finish, but i'll just be buying smaller jars from now on.

[Domicron]

i took the time to make almond butter with my vitamix a few times. i may not be doing it right, but it turns out amazing. i blend almonds until the motor overheads, and then let it cool and blend it more. the almond butter turns out creamy like peanut butter with no separation, even after days in the fridge. the big problem is that the vitamix blade makes it dangerous to scrape out the almond butter at the bottom and there's a good amount of waste. also i also usually forget to add salt. lol

sorry to derail the thread.

[AdamWW]

I think I read something about that on your log the last time you popped up. Do you consume a lot of nut butter? Peanuts seem to be very good at lowering cholesterol. The best value I've seen is the Costco Kirkland pack. I've got a pair at the moment, but I haven't gotten around to opening them yet. Though I imagine it's going to be a bitch to mix it up. I might dump it out into a bowl, use the mixer and then put it back. I use a hand mixer for regular 18 oz. and under jars.

Honestly, to me, it seems like the following is true:

- Consumption of more omega-3 and poly/mono unsaturated rich fat sources helps raise HDL the most
- Reduction of 'unhealthy' fats (trans, excessive omega 6, etc) lowers LDL the most
- Exercise is good at doing BOTH of the above

Pure speculation on my part, but when my LDL was higher, my total fat was higher and had more omega 6.

I also read that the ideal ratios for omega-6 and 3 in the diet is something like <2:1... so I aim to get about twice as much omega 3 as I do omega-6... hope it works out

Right now I consume 2-3 tablespoons of milled flaxseed daily, along with 1oz or so of other nuts like almonds or walnuts... I don't really consume much oil... little olive oil here or there, maybe 1-2 avocados a week, sometimes a little coconut oil...

[AdamWW]

Don't forget chia seeds! The vegan diet impacts health in a good way for a variety of reasons. Pinning it down to a few specifics would be difficult. The biggest flaw of a vegetarian and vegan diets is that they're highly cariogenic compared to a "regular" diet. People who have a history of consuming more fats and proteins than CHOs are less likely to have bad breath, caries and other oral health issues. The issue with the former two is that the repeated consumption of CHOs leads to the breakdown of sugars which feed bacteria in the mouth that cause plaque which results in caries.

The issue is twofold though. A person could theoretically consume a pound of sugar in a sitting each day for years and not develop issues. Meanwhile the person who has repeated exposure throughout the day will eventually get caries. It's why you're not supposed to sip on soda all day long. Though using a toothpaste with hydrogen peroxide and or triclosan in it cuts down on that stuff and other oral health issues. I'd recommend diet based vegans and vegetarians to use Optic White and Total by Colgate. Listerine Total Care 30-35 minutes post brushing. It tastes good and has fluoride, so you're not just swishing oil extract alcohol.

Though it goes without saying that non-starchy vegetables and non-grains are less cariogenic than starchy vegetables and grains. People who consume diet sodas are still at risk because the carbonation becomes carbonic acid in the mouth. A weak acid, but can still damage enamel and in enough quantity, the oral lining.

I'm not sure this applies to me...

The only shift in my diet going vegan was:

Replace chicken with beans
Replace Greek Yogurt with Lentils.

That's the change, and now I'm vegan. I really don't think substituting two food items while keeping the countless others the same is going to yield a huge difference.

Also, the amount of sugars specifically that I'm consuming from fruits or other sources is basically unchanged.

[ErikTheElectric]

Not just sugar. You'd get be exposed to a higher risk of caries, or cavities for the sake of clarity, if you consumed plain white or brown rice, and never consumed excess sugar. Though, the more I think about it, I wonder how Erik stays vegan with all his challenges unless the stuff people send in is vegan.

Why? I don't see the complexity of leading a plant-based diet outside of the occasional challenge/contest.

[ErikTheElectric]

Interesting, not sure why you thought I was on some sort of "Strict vegan diet" as I've never stated so. I simply do not eat meat, and rarely consume animal products. Simply leading a plant-based diet has been EXTREMELY beneficial in terms of my overall health and leading up into contests/challenges.

[ErikTheElectric]

Meh, I wouldn't go THAT far..

[AdamWW]

Not just sugar. You'd get be exposed to a higher risk of caries, or cavities for the sake of clarity, if you consumed plain white or brown rice, and never consumed excess sugar. Though, the more I think about it, I wonder how Erik stays vegan with all his challenges unless the stuff people send in is vegan.

Really? Why? What's in the rice and other carb sources?

[AdamWW]

They're carbs. Remnant amounts in the mouth that you can't see or feel will breakdown into sugar. Oral bacteria thrive on carbohydrates, that in turn produce acid that wrecks havoc on oral PH which increases the likehood of cavities. Any area with plaque are target rich environments. Too much of that bacteria present wrecks havoc on your cardiovascular system. Foods high in protein and fat don't promote decay.

There's a reason there's that old mantra that a lot of bodybuilders in the pro league spend quite a bit of money on oral health. The constant consumption of carbs throughout the day promotes decay. It's also why your typical Whole Foods employee who munches on sugarless granola all day long has jacked up oral health.

Switching to xylitol and pure stevia extract powder as a sweetener for most things should help. Xylitol kills said bacteria and neutralizes acid in the mouth. Ice Breakers cubes are a fantastic source. And a good stevia powder like Better Stevia from Now Foods is phenomenal.

Didn't know that about the non-sugar carbs. I'm not sure I've noticed the whole foods or pro bodybuilder reference

However, I would imagine as long as I'm brushing and flossing regularly, i'd be OK... had a dental checkout last month and everything was gravy.