Brad Schoenfeld submits to JISSN editor about BCAA study

[JoeTinpan]

Hah! I musta been working when the signal was put out...

The HMB study is notorious because the results were so dramatic, and the data reporting was strange. To me it's just one of those cases that you view with caution until there's some replication from a different, non-affiliated lab.

gun to your nuts and you gotta make a decision - yay or nay for your clients?

[eatyourspinach]

gun to your nuts and you gotta make a decision - yay or nay for your clients?

http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/artic...550-2783-11-20

[alan aragon]

gun to your nuts and you gotta make a decision - yay or nay for your clients?

Not sold, brah.

[wave_length]

Not sold, brah.

I think that's also what you wrote in your book about HMB. Could in your opinion the FA part make any difference?

[BULLED]

Hah! I musta been working when the signal was put out...

The HMB study is notorious because the results were so dramatic, and the data reporting was strange. To me it's just one of those cases that you view with caution until there's some replication from a different, non-affiliated lab.

My thoughts, just a lightened version I find it laughable that some people blindly believe such a hilarious study. Thanks for sharing your opinion, Alan!

[BULLED]

Could in your opinion the FA part make any difference?

If there are interests involved, you are better off not believe anyone.

http://ergo-log.com/old-fashioned-ca...ays-rival.html

[wave_length]

If there are interests involved, you are better off not believe anyone.

http://ergo-log.com/old-fashioned-ca...ays-rival.html

I wouldn't believe a "study" claiming roid-like gains in any case. Just wondering if the form of delivery could make a difference at all. Thanks for the link.

[Synapsin]

I think that's also what you wrote in your book about HMB. Could in your opinion the FA part make any difference?

He already said no, lol

[kbayne]

I think that's also what you wrote in your book about HMB. Could in your opinion the FA part make any difference?

No, and studies out showing Ca version has roughly 80% greater bioavailabity over Fa.

[wave_length]

He already said no, lol

Ah OK, thought he was talking about HMB in general.

[DASBUNKER]

Check the logs

Underrated comment.

[Ninjathoskinny]

Yup, it is. At least in my experience, and I review for SCJ & IJSNEM as well as JISSN.

I went to the future and retrieved this study:



"The Sobering Limits of Natty Supplementation": A cost-effectiveness study repudiating an overzealous attempt to maximize muscle protein synthesis for the gainz

Abstract

30 genetically engineered bio-identical healthy human male clones (aged 25) at intermediate level of training ( 2 years of regular training 4 times a week) were selected and randomly allotted into 3 groups of 10 subjects to evaluate the cost effectiveness and sanity of a supplementation protocol and its effects on muscle hypertrophy (LBM) and or performance.

Methodology

---Group 1 (SUPPNOOBS) protocol included supplementation of β-hydroxy β-methylbutyrate (HMB-fa), Phosphatidic acid (PA), Leukic acid (HICA), as directed on labels, and 50g BCAAS divided in 5 doses [5g pre breakfast , 5g between breakfast and lunch, 15g pre workout, 15g post workout, 10g in between dinner and breakfast] based on the protein refraction theory.

---GROUP 2 (NUTMISC) received no supplementation

---GROUP 3 (CONTROL) received no supplementation and did not lift.

All clones were given a 2 week wash out period to phase out any previous supplementation saturation levels, and were prescribed a detraining period (passive rest) of 2 weeks prior to the start of the study. SUPPNOOBS and NUTMISC were put on push/legs/pull twice a week routine with a rest day in between. Exercise programming was based on literature on optimal repetition ranges for hypertrophy: 40 total reps per muscle group, per session. All clones were put on an identical hypercaloric diet: (protein 1.1xLBM; fat diet 0.45xLBM; carbohydrate 2.7xLBM) and caloric expenditure and sleep was tracked via state-of-the-art monitoring device.

Results

After 12 weeks, fan-beam dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) revealed SUPPNOOBS and NUTMISC experience identical gains in LBM and fat mass, consistent with rate of gainz (0.5-1% total body weight per month) monitored prior to this study. CONTROL GROUP accrued disproportionately higher fat mass.

[macwad]

Alan, can you post what were the inconsistencies you detected?

[Rob1882]

Not sold, brah.

My thoughts, just a lightened version I find it laughable that some people blindly believe such a hilarious study. Thanks for sharing your opinion, Alan!

If there are interests involved, you are better off not believe anyone.

http://ergo-log.com/old-fashioned-ca...ays-rival.html

I will start with I have not once used HMB in any form

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2016...ality.html?m=1

Non-significant only due to the fact that the sample size ended up being too small, since half the sample dropped out (it was very grueling training and they were also sleep deprived): It's also been pointed out that the peak concentration with HMB-FA may play a factor rather than total bioavailability (Ca is better for total bioavailability, but it's very possible that what we do want is a higher and faster peak during training)

Thoughts? This looked pretty promising.

[powercage]

Better question for me is are the benefits of hmb worth the cost

[Rob1882]

Better question for me is are the benefits of hmb worth the cost

It's to far reaching and could be applied to any "supplement" most do very little ( nothing ) and cost is individual as is worth. I have used a LOT of good bro hyped things ( many costing as much or more than HMB ) which did next to nothing for me, and I never spoke of them or bought them again.

Fair point however but still of interest as to what it could offer/benefit or provide

[kbayne]

Better question for me is are the benefits of hmb worth the cost

Cost shouldn't be an issue, especially with the Ca version.

[powercage]

Cost shouldn't be an issue, especially with the Ca version.

if the benefits are miniscule, its an issue

I just dont know what to think with the current body of research

[kbayne]

if the benefits are miniscule, its an issue

I just don't know what to think with the current body of research

This is true.

IMO, people just need to try it for themselves to truly understand if it is going to benefit them or not. Studies say one thing or another (which we all know).

I would honestly say for the most part, individuals running HMB do not train hard enough to even benefit.

[powercage]

Let me put it this way, Im open to it having benefits. Im just skeptical at this point due to variance in research

[LoudyRowdy]

IMO, people just need to try it for themselves to truly understand if it is going to benefit them or not. Studies say one thing or another (which we all know).

Wait. I've heard that before

[lucia316]

This is true.

IMO, people just need to try it for themselves to truly understand if it is going to benefit them or not. Studies say one thing or another (which we all know).

I would honestly say for the most part, individuals running HMB do not train hard enough to even benefit.

But if studies continually show it does little to nothing, then the feelz and "benefits," whatever those may be, are likely placebo. What's that worth?

inb4 this post gets reported for harassment.

[ahawk01]

Let me put it this way, Im open to it having benefits. Im just skeptical at this point due to variance in research

I paid a little over 5 cents a gram for hmb-ca. I didn't go crazy but I have enough for 1/2 a year taking 3 grams a day.

not a ton of money in the creatine range.

[alphafreak]

Here is my 2 cents on hmb-fa I did the full 3 month cycle with clear muscle and I did see improved recovery and some strength gains especially in the lower body, in terms of weight gain that come from a calorie surplus and as long your calories are high you will see weight gain not sure why people keep saying its because of supplements

After the 3 months I replaced it with bcaa mix with HICA and the recovery was the same I am still getting strength gains, so does hmb-fa work as a recovery supplement the answer is yes now is it better than the other recovery supplements on the market the answer is no.

[kbayne]

Here is my 2 cents on hmb-fa I did the full 3 month cycle with clear muscle and I did see improved recovery and some strength gains especially in the lower body, in terms of weight gain that come from a calorie surplus and as long your calories are high you will see weight gain not sure why people keep saying its because of supplements

After the 3 months I replaced it with bcaa mix with HICA and the recovery was the same I am still getting strength gains, so does hmb-fa work as a recovery supplement the answer is yes now is it better than the other recovery supplements on the market the answer is no.

Well IMO, that is what HMB should be used for, is improved recovery, allowing for greater frequency.

[macwad]

Any news about this?

[OT2000]

Any news about this?

Unless Alan himself chimes in, I doubt it. More or likely the rebuttal is still under review.

[kbayne]

Brad threw up a post on FB stating final proofs of our letter to the editor at JISSN questioning the findings of the recent study that found body composition benefits to consuming BCAAs should be up in the next few days.

"The data does not seem to support a benefit of BCAA supplementation during periods of caloric restriction"

[carguy123]

Brad threw up a post on FB stating final proofs of our letter to the editor at JISSN questioning the findings of the recent study that found body composition benefits to consuming BCAAs should be up in the next few days.

"The data does not seem to support a benefit of BCAA supplementation during periods of caloric restriction"

Was just reading that myself....interested to see the full text on all of this

[JoeTinpan]