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    Should Apple open that phone

    Yes or no.
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    Finally accused of juicin Corbi's Avatar
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    Yes
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    No.
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    Originally Posted by Brackneyc View Post
    Yes or no.
    No, because it will open up a can of worms. They(local gov) reset the password by mistake and it was a work phone. They smashed their personal phones and removed the sim card so who would be dumb enough to put "sleeper" info on a work phone?
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    Finally accused of juicin Corbi's Avatar
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    Unlocking the phone and handing it over presents no issues on privacy. If Apple were to basically give the FBI the backdoor key to then open any and all phones, well that I disagree with. These people were part of a sleeper cell network, that much is known. Nobody knows what is on that phone and it may be nothing, but what if it has the contacts and other info that will lead to the apprehension of other sleeper cell members?
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    Terrorists give up their rights, as well as criminals.

    Yes for terrorists and criminals.

    No for the general public.
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  7. #7
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    Hell f'cking yeah, not even sure why this is even a topic. So damn f'cking stupid, it a no brainer open the damn phone.
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  8. #8
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    No.

    Originally Posted by Corbi View Post
    Unlocking the phone and handing it over presents no issues on privacy. If Apple were to basically give the FBI the backdoor key to then open any and all phones, well that I disagree with. These people were part of a sleeper cell network, that much is known. Nobody knows what is on that phone and it may be nothing, but what if it has the contacts and other info that will lead to the apprehension of other sleeper cell members?
    Most of our connected devices already send loads of specific data and metadata globs over unsecured and compromised mediums, it can be argued that with the state of electronic warfare and monitoring that the data sent to that phone or that that phone sent is already recovered. The position of the government in this case is to require the public breaking of the phone by the manufacturer so that the true extent of surveillance capabilities are not stated. This is a political move and not an actual case of national security.
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  9. #9
    This too shall pass dazlittle's Avatar
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    My understanding is they are not asking Apple to unlock it, they are asking them to change the OS so that they can try unlimited times to break the passcode.

    If that piece of software or new OS were to leak it could have far reaching consequences.

    I vote NO they should not do it, but will probably be forced to do it anyway.
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    Originally Posted by Corbi View Post
    Unlocking the phone and handing it over presents no issues on privacy. If Apple were to basically give the FBI the backdoor key to then open any and all phones, well that I disagree with.
    That's the whole point. They can't just open the one phone. They would have to produce a mechanism that could then be used by the government to open all phones.

    I don't know is my answer. It's a bit like the "should we be able to torture someone if we know it will save people" question. When looked at on an individual level the answer looks like a "yes", but then looked at from a societal level the answer looks like a "no". As with that question, the premise is probably false. Torture rarely guarantees any useful output, and similarly there is no good reason to think here that cracking the phone is likely to yield any useful intel. So I would probably tend towards no, although I don't think it is straightforward.
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  11. #11
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    No one gives up rights to become a terrorist or anything else observed as an affront to society, no matter how violent. To say "the people who I identify as 'xyz' will now be regarded as terrorists" is solely dependent upon on the person proclaiming such. And then the next person. Then the next person. And the next person.

    Given the phone they are trying to access was a corporate phone and not their personal phones (which were smashed), it is dubious he conducted terrorist activities on it. Furthermore, should the phone have been setup correctly by the company, there would be administrator access to the phone, no matter what code he put on.

    I'll refer to Justice Antonin Scalia:

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    Originally Posted by dazlittle View Post
    My understanding is they are not asking Apple to unlock it, they are asking them to change the OS so that they can try unlimited times to break the passcode.

    If that piece of software or new OS were to leak it could have far reaching consequences.

    I vote NO they should not do it, but will probably be forced to do it anyway.
    Agreed, most of people does not understand the difference.

    Should Apple help FBI extract information of this particular Iphone? of course! and they have been trying.

    However, FBI and the Court are asking for Apple to implement "Master Key/Back Door" for the future IOS? Absolutely not!

    once the Master Key is created, there is no way to protect or hide it from third party....
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  13. #13
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    Guess what gov. employees (FBI) do when given such power (the master key)? They use it for personal use to **SPY ON** friends,family, enemies, coworkers, ect. And...... when they are found out, they end up keeping their jobs and pension with little consequences. Get ready for hearings with congress ten years later on abuses.

    Ex military intelligence analyst: The FBI 'cannot be trusted' with the power it wants from Apple

    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple...erreach-2016-2


    The FBI "cannot be trusted" with the kind of power it is asking for from Apple.

    And it could "destroy the entire security industry" if it succeeds in getting the company to decrypt an iPhone used by one of the shooters involved in the San Bernardino terrorist attack.

    That is according to David Kennedy, a former Marine Corps intelligence analyst and professional hacker.
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    It's a company phone and therefore the company owns the data on the phone. There is no implied right of privacy to work emails, calls etc. They are in possession of the phone and therefore the data; which I assume is where the law ends. Any third party involvement would be voluntary.

    Flounder is a brief, so he might be able to answer this:

    Existing private customers of apple have an expectation of privacy re their personal phones. If apple enable third parties to access that data without a court order for each instance; aren't they leaving themselves open to a class action lawsuit?
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    Originally Posted by DuracellBunny View Post
    It's a company phone and therefore the company owns the data on the phone. There is no implied right of privacy to work emails, calls etc. They are in possession of the phone and therefore the data; which I assume is where the law ends. Any third party involvement would be voluntary.

    Flounder is a brief, so he might be able to answer this:

    Existing private customers of apple have an expectation of privacy re their personal phones. If apple enable third parties to access that data without a court order for each instance; aren't they leaving themselves open to a class action lawsuit?
    There's really no such thing as "ownership" of data (at least in UK law). Confidential data is protected by breach of confidence, if it is protected by an obligation of confidence. The contents of a phone are just a string of bits. No-one "owns" the bits - but people may owe obligations of confidence in relation to data stored by the arrangement of those bits, or they may own intellectual property rights which prevent certain acts being carried out in respect of ideas or the expression of ideas manifested in the data, but again that is not the same as "owning" the data.

    It is also not true to say that there is no implied right to privacy in work emails calls etc. It will depend on the circumstances. If I have discussions with my wife about some medical issue on my phone at work, the courts would certainly imply a duty of confidence regarding the content of such conversations (and indeed there are various other legal issues that arise regarding the recording of telephone conversations) - the company could not disclose that information for its own purposes. Of course many companies will have clear policies in place which entitle it to monitor traffic (whether email or telephone etc). But even that will not simply obviate any duties of confidence they may have given the circumstances of the communications in question.

    Duties of confidence are in the main subject to provisions allowing for disclosure in circumstances of illegality (whistleblower provisions). Breach of confidence is an equitable remedy and one could not ordinarily use it to prevent disclosure of communications which showed illegality.

    As for expectations of privacy, there is no right to privacy enshrined in UK law, although the slithgly wooly "misuse of personal information" in the Naomi Campbell case probably comes close, even though it was really just a breach of confidence case. But in any event you would have an almost impossible task suing a phone manufacturer for providing a phone which was theoretically crackable by GCHQ. Quite apart from the lack of cause of action, there would be no damage.

    The reality is that GCHQ have incredibly stringent regulations preventing them from hacking anything except in enormously limited circumstances. Being British, we accept that they abide by the letter of the law. Whereas in the US everyone assumes the NSA is completely flouting the law. Just another cultural gulf between us.

    TL;DR
    Cliffs - yada yada, confidence, privacy, oh too boring to read.
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    Originally Posted by Flounderbout View Post
    There's really no such thing as "ownership" of data (at least in UK law). Confidential data is protected by breach of confidence, if it is protected by an obligation of confidence. The contents of a phone are just a string of bits. No-one "owns" the bits - but people may owe obligations of confidence in relation to data stored by the arrangement of those bits, or they may own intellectual property rights which prevent certain acts being carried out in respect of ideas or the expression of ideas manifested in the data, but again that is not the same as "owning" the data.

    It is also not true to say that there is no implied right to privacy in work emails calls etc. It will depend on the circumstances. If I have discussions with my wife about some medical issue on my phone at work, the courts would certainly imply a duty of confidence regarding the content of such conversations (and indeed there are various other legal issues that arise regarding the recording of telephone conversations) - the company could not disclose that information for its own purposes. Of course many companies will have clear policies in place which entitle it to monitor traffic (whether email or telephone etc). But even that will not simply obviate any duties of confidence they may have given the circumstances of the communications in question.

    Duties of confidence are in the main subject to provisions allowing for disclosure in circumstances of illegality (whistleblower provisions). Breach of confidence is an equitable remedy and one could not ordinarily use it to prevent disclosure of communications which showed illegality.

    As for expectations of privacy, there is no right to privacy enshrined in UK law, although the slithgly wooly "misuse of personal information" in the Naomi Campbell case probably comes close, even though it was really just a breach of confidence case. But in any event you would have an almost impossible task suing a phone manufacturer for providing a phone which was theoretically crackable by GCHQ. Quite apart from the lack of cause of action, there would be no damage.

    The reality is that GCHQ have incredibly stringent regulations preventing them from hacking anything except in enormously limited circumstances. Being British, we accept that they abide by the letter of the law. Whereas in the US everyone assumes the NSA is completely flouting the law. Just another cultural gulf between us.

    TL;DR
    Cliffs - yada yada, confidence, privacy, oh too boring to read.
    For a legal response, that is remarkably none legalese, thank you.

    I only know the email thing in regards to how it relates to me. I know that if a complaint is made to HR by one of my employees that HR can look at the emails of all involved within the context of the complaint. Similarly, if a company phone has been used to send porn, it can be searched for porn etc. I just get told by inhouse legal yes or no as to whether something can be done. My inhouse guys are very good, but I don't like/get on with them, so we interact as little as possible lol.

    I would imagine that somebody in the US could sue though, as they can sue for almost anything.
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    NO!

    Why not?

    See Mr. Chen's post below.





    Originally Posted by jjchen330ci View Post
    Agreed, most of people does not understand the difference.

    Should Apple help FBI extract information of this particular Iphone? of course! and they have been trying.

    However, FBI and the Court are asking for Apple to implement "Master Key/Back Door" for the future IOS? Absolutely not!

    once the Master Key is created, there is no way to protect or hide it from third party....
    Yes. And the third party is none other than our tyrannical government.

    It's ironic how Apple is protecting our constitutional rights more so than our gubmint.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    Guess what gov. employees (FBI) do when given such power (the master key)? They use it for personal use to **SPY ON** friends,family, enemies, coworkers, ect. And...... when they are found out, they end up keeping their jobs and pension with little consequences. Get ready for hearings with congress ten years later on abuses.

    Ex military intelligence analyst: The FBI 'cannot be trusted' with the power it wants from Apple

    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple...erreach-2016-2


    The FBI "cannot be trusted" with the kind of power it is asking for from Apple.

    And it could "destroy the entire security industry" if it succeeds in getting the company to decrypt an iPhone used by one of the shooters involved in the San Bernardino terrorist attack.

    That is according to David Kennedy, a former Marine Corps intelligence analyst and professional hacker.
    This in a nutshell. I'm not normally a big fan of Apple, since they aren't much respectors of privacy themselves, but I have to completely agree with and respect Tim Cook's position here.

    It's not just the security industry that's being threatened here, it's the last vestiges of American industrial competitiveness. If there's a technique the government can use to hack into a data device, then that technique can be used by anybody. Industrial espionage from China and Russia are already big problems. We'd be handing them all of our data on a silver platter if the government went through with this.
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    Originally Posted by Corbi View Post
    Unlocking the phone and handing it over presents no issues on privacy. If Apple were to basically give the FBI the backdoor key to then open any and all phones, well that I disagree with. These people were part of a sleeper cell network, that much is known. Nobody knows what is on that phone and it may be nothing, but what if it has the contacts and other info that will lead to the apprehension of other sleeper cell members?
    ^^ This. Apple can unlock the phone and hand it back to the FBI without giving the FBI the means to do it themselves. Nobody's privacy is compromised.
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    ^^ This. Apple can unlock the phone and hand it back to the FBI without giving the FBI the means to do it themselves. Nobody's privacy is compromised.
    There are 2 issues there:

    The 1st is that Apple designed the system to lock out numerous attempts at guessing the passcode, a limit of 10 attempts can be made on the phone before the telephone does a wipe, erase, and reset to factory defaults. This is a security feature that is built into the phone.

    The 2nd part is that the pin code if it is really 4 digits (which requires 10,000 guesses), it is fairly easy to brute force, a 6 digit pass code would require 1,000,000 guesses, a 6 digit alpahnumeric code would require 10^6 guesses. With time and some computing power all of that is possible.

    The actual request from the Government is asking Apple to disable the mechanism that will recognize a brute force attempt. The problem is that Apple had a phone hack several years ago with the brute force counter being reset and suspended which allowed the hacker to break into the phone. For interest: The hackers realized that the phone counted the attempts but did not log the attempts, so turning the phone off and then back on and trying 9 times was sufficient. Apple modified the brute recognition application to log the amounts of attempts, they hard coded it into the phone so off or on if you have tried x amount of times you've tried x amount of times. So that manner of brute forcing the phone is now impossible.

    The Gvt maintains that Apple should assist their investigation with manufacturing production code to circumvent the logger which would allow them to then brute force the phone.

    Should Apple do this then they have immediately compromised the security of their entire brand and underscored digital security which pretty much everyone relies on now to convince themselves that stuff they do electronically is sufficiently secure.

    Apple's stand here is guarding Pandora's box, because once they do provide the government or any 3rd party (the government ironically) most of the digital security that everyone again takes for granted now becomes suspect.
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    Originally Posted by Clinos View Post
    There are 2 issues there:

    The 1st is that Apple designed the system to lock out numerous attempts at guessing the passcode, a limit of 10 attempts can be made on the phone before the telephone does a wipe, erase, and reset to factory defaults. This is a security feature that is built into the phone.

    The 2nd part is that the pin code if it is really 4 digits (which requires 10,000 guesses), it is fairly easy to brute force, a 6 digit pass code would require 1,000,000 guesses, a 6 digit alpahnumeric code would require 10^6 guesses. With time and some computing power all of that is possible.

    The actual request from the Government is asking Apple to disable the mechanism that will recognize a brute force attempt. The problem is that Apple had a phone hack several years ago with the brute force counter being reset and suspended which allowed the hacker to break into the phone. For interest: The hackers realized that the phone counted the attempts but did not log the attempts, so turning the phone off and then back on and trying 9 times was sufficient. Apple modified the brute recognition application to log the amounts of attempts, they hard coded it into the phone so off or on if you have tried x amount of times you've tried x amount of times. So that manner of brute forcing the phone is now impossible.

    The Gvt maintains that Apple should assist their investigation with manufacturing production code to circumvent the logger which would allow them to then brute force the phone.

    Should Apple do this then they have immediately compromised the security of their entire brand and underscored digital security which pretty much everyone relies on now to convince themselves that stuff they do electronically is sufficiently secure.

    Apple's stand here is guarding Pandora's box, because once they do provide the government or any 3rd party (the government ironically) most of the digital security that everyone again takes for granted now becomes suspect.
    Seems like an easy compromise would be what I suggested in the previous post. Have Apple themselves do it without releasing any tools to the government.
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Seems like an easy compromise would be what I suggested in the previous post. Have Apple themselves do it without releasing any tools to the government.
    It is not a compromise at all if they disable the manner of security on the device which people purchased with the understanding that the device would never be compromised by them. This goes back as far as 2014 when Apple started to strengthen the passcode procedures due to too many government requests for one time favors, sound familiar?

    Apple stated and advertised:

    "On devices running iOS 8, your personal data such as photos, messages (including attachments), email, contacts, call history, iTunes content, notes, and reminders is placed under the protection of your passcode. "Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data. So it's not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8."
    Breaking that trust as a traded company would be insane, the amount of lawsuits behind it would be staggering.

    A few years ago the FBI, a smattering of other government agencies, and the White House made several statements about their concerns with not being able to backdoor into phones, computers, and devices which were statements made in response to the increase in consumer security by concerned consumers and manufacturers responding to that concern by providing better security means.

    During that time Apple decided with the release of their newer phones and newest Operation System to increase the number of permutations required to crack a passcode by having users move from a 4 digit passcode to a 6 digit passcode routed pretty solidly in mathematics.

    The government knew this before even asking Apple to modify the phone since that move was made in 2014. It's 2016. The government has known for well over 2 years that they could not force Apple to give them a back door and are attempting to use this case to publicly force Apple to create the backdoor for them.

    Apple is not the one trying to pull a fast one here.

    eta: I hate Apple products and don't own any.
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    Originally Posted by Clinos View Post
    It is not a compromise at all if they disable the manner of security on the device which people purchased with the understanding that the device would never be compromised by them.
    They would only be unlocking a particular phone under a judge's orders. I'm not sure how that represents a breach of security to iPhone users at large....especially if no tools are given to the government.
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    They would only be unlocking a particular phone under a judge's orders. I'm not sure how that represents a breach of security to iPhone users at large.
    I think you're trolling me.

    Again,

    "On devices running iOS 8, your personal data such as photos, messages (including attachments), email, contacts, call history, iTunes content, notes, and reminders is placed under the protection of your passcode. "Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data. So it's not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8."
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    Originally Posted by Clinos View Post
    I think you're trolling me.

    Again,
    If they can't physically do it, that is another matter, but most of the arguments I have read (including from Tim Cook himself...and your argument which I quoted) relate to this "breach of privacy" argument, which to me doesn't make a lot of sense.
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    If they can't physically do it, that is another matter, but most of the arguments I have read (including from Tim Cook himself...and your argument which I quoted) relate to this "breach of privacy" argument, which to me doesn't make a lot of sense.
    They have stated that it is not feasible for them to attempt to recover the data due to the manner of the device's design which was designed to thwart the very behaviour being asked of them. This is akin to a company developing a run flat tire which then the government demands that they flatten the tire.

    The breach of privacy comes from one of the advertised selling points of the phone which was: All of the content on any device you purchase from us is owned by you and you alone, we are unable to retrieve, spy, or share that information. This is a secure device.
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    Is this different than when the cops or feds confiscate a criminals computer to possibly get additional evidence? I think that is pretty common isn't it? Don't understand the difference...
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    Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    Is this different than when the cops or feds confiscate a criminals computer to possibly get additional evidence? I think that is pretty common isn't it? Don't understand the difference...
    Same thing with a few differences if they confiscate a computer or unlocked cellphone they have everything that they need and this is a none issue other than ensuring that the warrant was issued in accord with the law and the scope of the investigation.

    If the computer is encrypted by the user using 3rd party tools, the authorities will have the computer but are not able to access the data on the computer There are a few court cases going around on this right now where authorities are locked out of a computer they physically possess and are attempting to compel the owner to release the encryption keys so that they can access the data.

    If the electronic device is locked by passcode the information on the device may not be encrypted however the device cannot be opened to yield the data.

    In this case the phone may be locked and encrypted. Though to be honest I'm not sure about the default encryption scheme for Apple products.
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    Why dont they just give ot to some teenager, they will have it opened in a few minutes.
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    Wow so much discussion on such a stupid topic, I mean seriously, Terrorist phone people OPEN THE F"CKING THING!
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