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  1. #1
    happy NoCarbsNoSugar's Avatar
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    Question Carbs & Sugar: Wheat vs. Veggies/Fruit/Dairy

    Long story short...
    I don't eat processed Carbs & Sugars: bread, pasta, pastry, pizza, etc.
    Don't be hatin'
    It's been working great for 1 1/2 years now.
    In the future, we'll see.

    Anyways, quick question.
    Thank you in advance for your input.

    Are Carbs and Sugar that I get from veggies/fruit/dairy the same as "processed" or "refined" Carbs and Sugar that I would get from donuts, cookies, pizza, etc? I guess I am referring to Carbs and Sugars that come from some type of Wheat product.

    Meaning, do the Carbs and Sugars I get from veggies/fruit/dairy provide the same benefits to my body as a slice of bread would?

    For example, if I reach into the 160's and want to do a slow bulk, I am aware I'd have to create a caloric surplus, and also add sufficient Carbs. No? Right now I get 50g-100g Carbs daily. I assume I'd have to get a bit more in order to bulk a bit. No?

    If yes, can all of those carbs come from veggies/fruit/dairy?

    Thanks.
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  2. #2
    Registered PB Addict jampottt's Avatar
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    The carbs can come from whatever source you desire, calories are calories.

    The reason people opt for fruit and whole grains as carb/energy choices as opposed to donuts and pizza is largely based on calorie choice, but if they fit, they fit and if they fuel your best performance, they fuel your best performance.

    I find it astounding you don't eat bread, pasta, pizza etc.. you're missing out on yummy food... if it fits...
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    Hi NCNS! To each his own.

    Think micronutrition. Phytonutrients are present in veggies. Not in donuts.
    Since ur having only 50-100g carbs a day on a cut, ur protein & fat intake is already relatively high. So upping P & F wont benefit you on a surplus. On the other hand, you would greatly benefit by upping carbs by way of added performance.

    Whatever helps u stay consistent!

    ETA: Check this out! http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...s-part-2.html/
    Last edited by PsyLadX; 02-05-2016 at 10:15 PM.
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    Originally Posted by jampottt View Post
    The carbs can come from whatever source you desire, calories are calories.

    The reason people opt for fruit and whole grains as carb/energy choices as opposed to donuts and pizza is largely based on calorie choice, but if they fit, they fit and if they fuel your best performance, they fuel your best performance.

    I find it astounding you don't eat bread, pasta, pizza etc.. you're missing out on yummy food... if it fits...
    To each their own. I know many people who are just like the OP and are perfectly content. You just have to take into account the fact that most come from overweight/obese backgrounds and simply do not enjoy that type of food anymore.
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    Yes op, you can most definitely bulk without wheat and sugar.
    Delirious Mutant.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    Are Carbs and Sugar that I get from veggies/fruit/dairy the same as "processed" or "refined" Carbs and Sugar that I would get from donuts, cookies, pizza, etc?
    A carb is basically a carb but they can come in different packages. Some carbs come with different micronutrients, phytonutrients and fiber than others. Some carbs come with industrial trans fats.

    And of course there are differences between sugars and starches. But the sugars in a poptart consist of fructose and glucose and so does the sugar in fruit or a carrot.

    Meaning, do the Carbs and Sugars I get from veggies/fruit/dairy provide the same benefits to my body as a slice of bread would?
    They both deliver specific benefits. A good quality bread can contain many useful micronutrients, phytonutrients and fiber.


    For example, if I reach into the 160's and want to do a slow bulk, I am aware I'd have to create a caloric surplus, and also add sufficient Carbs. No?
    No. You can bulk on higher fat too.

    If you want to bulk on high fat ideally you'd go with a diet high in unsaturated fats.

    If yes, can all of those carbs come from veggies/fruit/dairy?
    That's certainly possible. Although there's no logical reason to avoid bread, pasta, rice etc.

    Also, potatoes are usually considered veggies.

    PS. given the fact that you had high body fat before you need to be very slow with bulking, if not you'll gain fat quickly. Losing weight slowly and building muscle as you lose weight is probably a more effective strategy.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 02-06-2016 at 02:44 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Wow.
    Thanks for all the replies.
    I will take some time to read and reply, as soon as I finish this meal

    Grand meal, I tell ya'!
    C:260 F:15g Cbs:15g Sg:9g P:20g







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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by jampottt View Post
    The carbs can come from whatever source you desire, calories are calories.

    The reason people opt for fruit and whole grains as carb/energy choices as opposed to donuts and pizza is largely based on calorie choice, but if they fit, they fit and if they fuel your best performance, they fuel your best performance.

    I find it astounding you don't eat bread, pasta, pizza etc.. you're missing out on yummy food... if it fits...
    I am aware that calories are calories.
    I was inquiring more about the supposedly different types of carbs & sugar, as found in different food sources.

    I am also aware that if I could fit donuts, pizza, or whatever, into my macros, I would get the same results on the scale I am getting now. It is just a personal choice at this time.

    After many years of failed attempts, this, combined with counting calories and a moderate exercise program, has worked very well. I have continued to lose weight since November of 2014. Also, between Thanksgiving 2015 and the end of January 2016, I ate intuitively, without weighing and counting macros. I didn't put one pound on in those two months. That was great for me.

    Thanks for the input.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by PsyLadX View Post
    Hi NCNS! To each his own.

    Think micronutrition. Phytonutrients are present in veggies. Not in donuts.
    Since ur having only 50-100g carbs a day on a cut, ur protein & fat intake is already relatively high. So upping P & F wont benefit you on a surplus. On the other hand, you would greatly benefit by upping carbs by way of added performance.

    Whatever helps u stay consistent!
    Staying consistent has been the most important for me.
    I have had enough failed attempts throughout the years.
    This seems to be working very well for me.

    Yes, I would rather eat two large salad bowls instead of one donut, when in the end the caloric content is the same.

    Speaking of upping my carbs, that was the entire point of my question. I would like to try, but by increasing my veggie/fruit/dairy intake, and not by eating bread, cake, etc.

    Thanks for the input.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by ErikTheElectric View Post
    To each their own. I know many people who are just like the OP and are perfectly content. You just have to take into account the fact that most come from overweight/obese backgrounds and simply do not enjoy that type of food anymore.
    I certainly do come from an overweight/obese background.
    I weighed 316 lbs for years. I was obese for about two decades.
    At this time, what goes on my plate is a personal choice.
    Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by necon76 View Post
    Yes op, you can most definitely bulk without wheat and sugar.
    That is exactly what I am trying to figure out.
    How? By increasing which macro? Fat? Protein?
    My protein is already too high.
    By increasing the Fat?

    Thanks for the input.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    A carb is basically a carb but they can come in different packages. Some carbs come with different micronutrients, phytonutrients and fiber than others. Some carbs come with industrial trans fats.

    And of course there are differences between sugars and starches. But the sugars in a poptart consist of fructose and glucose and so does the sugar in fruit or a carrot.

    They both deliver specific benefits. A good quality bread can contain many useful micronutrients, phytonutrients and fiber.
    This is the sort of thing I need to learn about.
    If I can eat apples on the griddle with cottage cheese, instead of a donut, I would really prefer that.
    Those carbs would be the same, no?

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    No. You can bulk on higher fat too.

    If you want to bulk on high fat ideally you'd go with a diet high in unsaturated fats.
    Aha! Now, THIS i need to look into!


    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    That's certainly possible. Although there's no logical reason to avoid bread, pasta, rice etc.
    That is very good to know!
    Speaking of "logical reasons", yeah, it is more of a personal choice than a logical reason.
    Weird, I know.

    I think I read somewhere in a post of yours that you don't eat much meat.
    Is that right?
    I think someone could potentially say that there's no logical reason to avoid meat.
    Not me, though. I realize it is a personal choice.
    Just trying to make a point.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    PS. given the fact that you had high body fat before you need to be very slow with bulking, if not you'll gain fat quickly. Losing weight slowly and building muscle as you lose weight is probably a more effective strategy.
    Yes.
    Actually, I have no specific desire to get big.
    I just don't want to look like my sister.
    Wait... did I just say that out loud?



    I wouldn't want to be skin-and-bone.
    That's all. A little bit of muscle would be great.

    Thanks for the input.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post


    The irony is killing me here . . .
    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

    ― Mark Twain
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    Originally Posted by MetilHed View Post
    The irony is killing me here . . .
    in a good way or in a bad way?

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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    This is the sort of thing I need to learn about.
    If I can eat apples on the griddle with cottage cheese, instead of a donut, I would really prefer that.
    Those carbs would be the same, no?
    Why mention donuts? Why not sweet potatoes, oats and quinoa?

    Starches aren't exactly the same as sugars. An apple and cottage cheese is sugars, potatoes and oats are starches.

    Getting all your carbs from sugar is not the best idea.

    I think I read somewhere in a post of yours that you don't eat much meat.
    Is that right?
    I eat fish and chicken. And almost no red meat.

    I think someone could potentially say that there's no logical reason to avoid meat.
    In the case of red meat I'd disagree. https://examine.com/blog/scientists-...--or-did-they/
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    OP you mention failed attempts....I'm guessing you've tried eating higher amounts of carbs in the past and haven't been able to stick to your diet?

    Getting back to your original question, I think the main difference between processed carbs and whole food carbs is satiety and the effect they have on cravings. Processed carbs are not as filling, and as a second hit, they are commonly filled with sugar and processed fat which can cause cravings.

    I might eat ice cream or homemade pizza a couple times during the week when I'm bulking. This is partially just because I can, and partially because they are not filling and I sometimes struggle to get in calories when bulking. On the flip-side, I avoid sugar and most bread when I am cutting even if the food fits my macros, because they leave me still hungry.

    If you've had failed attempts at eating higher carbs in the past, were those failed attempts including carbs that were mainly processed or sugary? If so, then maybe if you try eating higher carbs again, stick to mainly whole food carbs that are more filling like potatoes, beans, fruit, or oatmeal. Think oatmeal and blueberries instead of cereal and milk. Or think steak and roasted potatoes (with very little olive oil) instead of a burger on a bun with french fries.
    Row from the floor.
    Eat the damned yolk.

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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Why mention donuts? Why not sweet potatoes, oats and quinoa?
    Because I don't like any of those foods. I never did

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Starches aren't exactly the same as sugars. An apple and cottage cheese is sugars, potatoes and oats are starches.

    Getting all your carbs from sugar is not the best idea.
    Right. That's he sort of thing I need to figure out.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I eat fish and chicken. And almost no red meat.


    In the case of red meat I'd disagree. https://examine.com/blog/scientists-...--or-did-they/
    I eat mostly white meat also. Lots of it. I like red meat, but we just don't buy it much.

    One thing I've learned is that for every study that says one should not eat this or that, there is at least another study that says one could.

    Ah... the battle of the studies!
    That sounded so dramatic... where's the background music?

    Thanks for the input.
    I appreciate it.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    OP you mention failed attempts....I'm guessing you've tried eating higher amounts of carbs in the past and haven't been able to stick to your diet?

    Getting back to your original question, I think the main difference between processed carbs and whole food carbs is satiety and the effect they have on cravings. Processed carbs are not as filling, and as a second hit, they are commonly filled with sugar and processed fat which can cause cravings.

    I might eat ice cream or homemade pizza a couple times during the week when I'm bulking. This is partially just because I can, and partially because they are not filling and I sometimes struggle to get in calories when bulking. On the flip-side, I avoid sugar and most bread when I am cutting even if the food fits my macros, because they leave me still hungry.

    If you've had failed attempts at eating higher carbs in the past, were those failed attempts including carbs that were mainly processed or sugary? If so, then maybe if you try eating higher carbs again, stick to mainly whole food carbs that are more filling like potatoes, beans, fruit, or oatmeal. Think oatmeal and blueberries instead of cereal and milk. Or think steak and roasted potatoes (with very little olive oil) instead of a burger on a bun with french fries.
    By multiple failed attempts I meant just that... I tried multiple times throughout the years to lose the weight, and I failed. This last time I lost 138 lbs by removing all (or most) processed Carbs and Sugars, by learning to count macros, and by introducing a moderate exercise/lifting program.

    The issue is not if I can introduce Ice Cream again. I've learned to make Ice Cream out of protein powder that is not loaded with unnecessary sugar.

    The question was if the Carbs that come from veggies/fruits/dairy are the same as those that come from say, donuts...

    Thanks for the input.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    The issue is not if I can introduce Ice Cream again.....The question was if the Carbs that come from veggies/fruits/dairy are the same as those that come from say, donuts...
    The point I was making was about the sugar content and processed carbs in general. It doesn't matter whether it's coming from ice cream (that has sugar in it) or donuts.
    Last edited by Caezar07; 02-07-2016 at 10:10 AM.
    Row from the floor.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    The point I was making was about the sugar content and processed carbs in general. It doesn't matter whether it's coming from ice cream or donuts.
    Right.
    I understand.

    And I agree, based on personal experience, that a given amount of calories coming from donuts are not going to be as satiating as the same amount of calories coming from say, chicken with broccoli.

    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    One thing I've learned is that for every study that says one should not eat this or that, there is at least another study that says one could.
    This is such a terrible generalization and misunderstanding of how science works.
    "In all things there is a poison and there is nothing without a poison. It depends only upon the dose whether a poison is a poison or not." ~ Paracelsus
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    Originally Posted by EmperorRyker View Post
    This is such a terrible generalization and misunderstanding of how science works.
    Maybe.
    I am not a scientist.
    I will admit that I do not possess sufficient understanding of how science works.

    Am I wrong in saying the above though?
    Take caffeine for example...

    Thanks for the reply.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    Right. That's he sort of thing I need to figure out.
    Beans, legumes etc. can be good sources of carbs too. For example black beans, navy beans, chickpeas. Good for protein too.

    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    in a good way or in a bad way?

    In a bad way. The supplements you're taking a completely unnecessary. It looks like you've been mislead by supplement reps in the supp forum.

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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Beans, legumes etc. can be good sources of carbs too. For example black beans, navy beans, chickpeas. Good for protein too.
    Thanks.
    I don't eat beans/peas too often.
    I will have to look into it.


    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    In a bad way. The supplements you're taking a completely unnecessary. It looks like you've been mislead by supplement reps in the supp forum.

    It is possible that they are unnecessary. It is even more probable that I could get similar benefits from actual foods, right? At least when it comes to protein. I am aware of that.

    The protein shakes I happen to like very much, and they are also quite convenient often. I have a busy schedule and sometimes they help during times of day when I wouldn't otherwise have time to sit down for a meal.

    The other supps I am just now learning about. I've always done C4 before a workout, and have tried different brands lately. BCAAs I don't know if I can get from some type of food. Can I?

    I will not pretend even for a minute that I know "my stuff"... I will say that I have enjoyed my journey so far. Learning something new every day.

    Do you take any supplements at all?

    Thanks for your help.
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    Originally Posted by ErikTheElectric View Post
    To each their own. I know many people who are just like the OP and are perfectly content. You just have to take into account the fact that most come from overweight/obese backgrounds and simply do not enjoy that type of food anymore.
    It's also that once you cut certain foods out entirely, you stop wanting to have them, so as you said, you become perfectly content with what you still are eating. In fact, you may be more content than trying to fit a small slice of pizza or whatever in, because you get the same enjoyment but without the associated cravings later on.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    BCAAs I don't know if I can get from some type of food. Can I?
    You can definitely get them from the plate full of meat that you have them next to.
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    Originally Posted by EmperorRyker View Post
    It's also that once you cut certain foods out entirely, you stop wanting to have them, so as you said, you become perfectly content with what you still are eating. In fact, you may be more content than trying to fit a small slice of pizza or whatever in, because you get the same enjoyment but without the associated cravings later on.
    I think you are right. In my case anyways, I really do not miss he foods I willingly gave up. It was hard when I first gave them up, but not anymore. If I really really missed them, I think I would find a way to fit them in my macros.

    It's just a matter of personal choice.
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    Originally Posted by MetilHed View Post
    You can definitely get them from the plate full of meat that you have them next to.
    How can I learn to compare the benefits of the food I intake in one entire week, with the benefits offered in the supplements I take in one week?

    Thanks.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    I think you are right. In my case anyways, I really do not miss he foods I willingly gave up. It was hard when I first gave them up, but not anymore. If I really really missed them, I think I would find a way to fit them in my macros.

    It's just a matter of personal choice.
    Absolutely. I experienced the same thing years ago when I decided to cut out cake, sugary desserts, pizza (unless homemade), cookies, fast food, candy etc. It wasn't that I thought they were bad, but I just didn't want to deal with the cravings I got whenever I ate them. After a while I got completely accustomed to not eating them and have even stopped wanting to eat them. Not that I didn't like the taste anymore, but there was just no particular desire to eat them over other foods. Then for entirely unrelated reasons I fell off the wagon recently, but there's a reason why it's usually suggested to just cut these things out when wanting to lose weight or not get fatter. It's because for the general population that's the easiest and simplest approach that works in that it usually results in less calories consumed and in a diet they can actually stick to for the rest of their lives.
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    Originally Posted by NoCarbsNoSugar View Post
    It is possible that they are unnecessary. It is even more probable that I could get similar benefits from actual foods, right? At least when it comes to protein. I am aware of that.

    The protein shakes I happen to like very much, and they are also quite convenient often. I have a busy schedule and sometimes they help during times of day when I wouldn't otherwise have time to sit down for a meal.

    The other supps I am just now learning about. I've always done C4 before a workout, and have tried different brands lately. BCAAs I don't know if I can get from some type of food. Can I?

    I will not pretend even for a minute that I know "my stuff"... I will say that I have enjoyed my journey so far. Learning something new every day.

    Do you take any supplements at all?

    Thanks for your help.
    Chicken, fish, meat, dairy, beans are all full of BCAAs.

    At your stats you want to make sure you eat about 160-180 gram protein spread over a couple of meals. If you do that BCAAs are completely useless.

    One study on BCAAs actually showed they blunted fat loss. But it was a poor quality study sponsored by a supplement company.

    I use whey and casein myself occasionally. Just for convenience.

    Here's the micros in a piece of salmon:


    ****
    And one scoop of protein powder:
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