New study finds no difference between consuming a protein shake pre or post workout

[Mrpb]

Alan Aragon & Brad Schoenfeld (and others) just ran a study in well trained individuals. One group was not allowed to eat 2 hours before their workout and had a protein supplement after. The other group had a protein supplement before their workout and was not allowed to eat 2 hours after. There were no significant differences between groups.

So it's another study showing that you don't need to slam a protein shake after your workout, especially if you have consumed protein before.

This was mentioned in this podcast, they did not mention much more about this study http://sigmanutrition.com/episode104/

[pogioli4]

clicked link. maybe I just skimmed too fast but didn't find the study.
can you direct me to the actual report?

[Mrpb]

clicked link. maybe I just skimmed too fast but didn't find the study.
can you direct me to the actual report?

The study has not been published yet. It should be available this year.

[kissdadookie]

This was pretty much well understood for awhile now (that if pre and optionally intra workout nutrition was properly in place then the post workout meal does not have as much importance).

The trend in recent years however has been that "training fasted is great and doesn't matter! Just get your daily food in whenever!" Which is just not a good idea unless your only concern is to lose fat and you don't care about your LBM.

[muruku]

Semi-related;

This reminds me of Kevin Tipton studies on pre and post workout nutrition.

In 2001, he did a study using EAAs which seems to indicate pre-workout protein was more beneficial (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/2/E197). Then in 2007, he repeated the study with whey protein and there was no difference between the pre and post workout groups. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16896166).

[Bigdumogre]

Pretty much already new this
I train am fasted so a shake is the only meal I have post workout for over a hr

[Mrpb]

This is the first ever study to investigate this in well trained individuals.

So this was not already known.

[OT2000]

Looking forward to reading the full content in the near future. Thanks for sharing Phil.

[ahawk01]

I think most importantly is to hit your daily requirement for protein. I do believe that leucine pre/post is more beneficial.

[xLGx]

I like training fasted (stims hit me harder on empty stomach) so I always drink milk during workout or eat a big meal after because I'm starving.

[Rushie]

This is the first ever study to investigate this in well trained individuals.

So this was not already known.

The leangains guy was doing this 5-10 years ago. He had people who trained fasted in the morning only ingesting 3*10g of BCAA (10g pre, and 20g post) while eating nothing until 1 pm (about 5 hours after actual training). He said there was no difference between this protocol and eating straight after workout.

He also said (if I remember correctly) that 20g post was only because he wanted to err on the safe side, not because he actually thought it made a lot of difference.

[dazedncnfz]

Pretty much already new this
I train am fasted so a shake is the only meal I have post workout for over a hr

Pretty much the same for me. I prefer to also take in my carbs intra and post (in a shake) because #1 Time (don't have it in the morning) and #2 I won't get the chance to eat a meal for 1-2 hours after oh and #3 I like having my shake so 0 fuks about it.

I must be one of the lucky ones since I can still grow without having a pre meal.

[llahhsoj]

A lot of us really has known this for a while. Total daily consumption is what the most important thing is.

[kissdadookie]

This is the first ever study to investigate this in well trained individuals.

So this was not already known.

This was already known with many if not most bodybuilders. Did a study really need to be done to realize this? We have had earlier studies showing the benefits of pre/intra workout nutrition and we also have the post workout nutrition study from last year. It's not that difficult to extrapolate the key points by looking through the earlier data.

The post workout nutrition study from last year was particularly interesting since it looked at net protein balance rather than what the acute markers indicated.

I'm not implying that this new study is worthless, it's more or less validation for what many already realized or could be extrapolated from existing data. Mind you, the post workout nutrition data from last year also used well trained individuals.

[snorkelman]

This was already known with many if not most bodybuilders. Did a study really need to be done to realize this?

Am I in bizzaro world? Taking a look at most posts in this forum has many people recommending a post-workout shake. Even many of the guys that say in one breath that they are aware that the most important factor is total protein, in the next breath say that they personally have a shake afterwards, and/or tout BCAAs for between meals.

[Rushie]

This was already known with many if not most bodybuilders. Did a study really need to be done to realize this?

How else would Alan Aragon have anything resembling a career? That's all he does: state the bleeding obvious...all...the...time.

[Mrpb]

This was already known with many if not most bodybuilders.

No it was not. It has been investigated in beginners, not in well trained individuals.

Schoenfeld and Aragon are smart guys, if it was already known they would not investigate it. This was a gap in the literature.

[Hyruliangoat]

Workout 6am and dont have first meal until like midnight crew

[Rushie]

Workout 6am and dont have first meal until like midnight crew

Studies indicate you shouldn't even be alive right now.

[nosirrahx]

I split the difference and do half before and half after. I never expected it to matter all that much though, it was more of a "just in case it actually matters I am covered either way".

[TMac26]

How else would Alan Aragon have anything resembling a career? That's all he does: state the bleeding obvious...all...the...time.

Lol.


If you know more than Alan I suggest you start doing research and getting published.


This Meta-Analysis is in the process of being published and it pretty much wrecks the whole "nutrient timing" theory, no matter how people to try to spin it.

[kissdadookie]

Am I in bizzaro world? Taking a look at most posts in this forum has many people recommending a post-workout shake. Even many of the guys that say in one breath that they are aware that the most important factor is total protein, in the next breath say that they personally have a shake afterwards, and/or tout BCAAs for between meals.

No it was not. It has been investigated in beginners, not in well trained individuals.

Schoenfeld and Aragon are smart guys, if it was already known they would not investigate it. This was a gap in the literature.

Do you guys not venture OUTSIDE of bb.com boards? Perhaps look at the plethora of content on T-Nation? Stuff Meadows write? EliteFTS?

I'm not saying that Schoenfeld and Aragon are not smart guys, but this data you speak of is really just validating what was suspected by many for a good long while already. Which is valuable in it's own right but it's not a Earth shattering discovery.

Also, notice how I did point out that most BODYBUILDERS not NOOBS or RECREATIONAL LIFTERS more or less already understood the importance of periworkout nutrition (which means pre + intra and then post workout becomes less important or the reverse).

[TMac26]

The whole skew of timing is thrown completely for a loop when you toss in "extras"



And EVERYONE, i mean EVERYONE knows that.

[TheFugitive]

I usually train fasted but I'm still drinking my post workout shake

[Mrpb]

Do you guys not venture OUTSIDE of bb.com boards? Perhaps look at the plethora of content on T-Nation? Stuff Meadows write? EliteFTS?

I don't read those websites or authors, I read the literature.

Here's a 2015 review by Stuart Phillips, considered by many to be one of the leading protein researchers in the world.

Timing of Protein Ingestion

We have known for some time that RE alone results in a long-lasting elevation in MPS for at least 48 h and MPB for 24 h (Phillips et al., 1997); thus, even in the basal fasted state there is a subsequent increase in the turnover of muscle proteins. RE alone elevating basal MPS will “prime” the muscle to be responsive, in terms of an increased sensitivity of MPS, to aminoacidemia. The duration of this sensitivity is at least 24 h (Burd et al., 2011) and, based on the similar protein dose thresholds (Moore et al., 2009; Witard et al., 2014a), we predict no difference in sensitivity between untrained and trained individuals. Given the sensitizing effect of RE, we conclude it is most advantageous to ingest protein and generate hyeraminoacidemia in the post-RE period.

Some have postulated that pre-exercise protein ingestion may also “prime” the system and offer some advantage over a post-exercise supplementation strategy. However, ingesting 20 g of whey protein either before or 1 h after 10 sets of leg extension resulted in similar rates of AA uptake (Tipton et al., 2007). In other studies there was no benefit shown with pre-exercise AA feeding (Fujita et al., 2009; Burke et al., 2012a). Considering the synergistic response of aminoacidemia following RE (Biolo et al., 1997; Burd et al., 2011), we see it as being optimal to ingest protein immediately following RE. Moreover, we speculate pre-exercise aminoacidemia may blunt the subsequent post-RE MPS response to AAs due to an overlap in the aminoacidemic responses and a muscle full effect (Atherton et al., 2010)...

A recent meta-analysis examining protein timing and hypertrophy concluded that the ingestion of a post-exercise supplement in closer temporal proximity to RE positively influenced hypertrophy (Schoenfeld et al., 2013); however, after adjustment for all covariates, the authors concluded that total protein intake was the strongest predictor of muscular hypertrophy and that protein timing did not influence hypertrophy. Nonetheless, practical advice would dictate that the post-exercise period is a time when rehydration, refueling (carbohydrate), and repair (3R) of damaged tissues should occur.

http://journal.frontiersin.org/artic...015.00245/full

Anyone can say "the outcome was not surprising" or "I already suspected this" and that makes sense. I did too.

However, saying "this was already known" isn't accurate.

this data you speak of is really just validating what was suspected by many for a good long while already.

Agreed. And now we have more certainty.

[TheFugitive]

When consuming 300 to 400 grams of protein per day timing becomes a reality

[TMac26]

When consuming 300 to 400 grams of protein per day timing becomes a reality

I would imagine at that amount of protein per day, timing would be irrelevant. That much would almost be a fed state constantly.



Edit: I too drink a shake post, not for timing, but more of habit. People should do what they feel comfortable.

[TheFugitive]

I would imagine at that amount of protein per day, timing would be irrelevant. That much would almost be a fed state constantly.



Edit: I too drink a shake post, not for timing, but more of habit. People should do what they feel comfortable.

It's insane the amount of protein the pro's consume throughout the day. Imagine setting your alarm to wake up in the middle of the night to chug a shake

[TMac26]

It's insane the amount of protein the pro's consume throughout the day. Imagine setting your alarm to wake up in the middle of the night to chug a shake

Friend of mine does that. Of course, he is huge, and not natty of course.


Sets his alarm to drink a full serving of a weight gainer, then goes back to bed.

[TheFugitive]

Friend of mine does that. Of course, he is huge, and not natty of course.


Sets his alarm to drink a full serving of a weight gainer, then goes back to bed.

These guys must live on a protein clock