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  1. #31
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    I am really diggin this new pattern of "up 5/10 or down 5/10", vs the normal "5x5" of "up 5/10 or down 10%".

    Greyskull LP tried to fix the soul sucking deload by having an AMRAP at the end so you could at least increase your reps.
    At least with this program your worst case week you are only down 15/30 lbs and can catch right back up the following week.

    Still i wonder if i can roll this into a 5-6 day program by splitting anything up. I only have 30-40min to lift per day. I do not have a 2 hour block 3x a week to work/shower/etc.
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  2. #32
    Registered User Metalmank's Avatar
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    I'm actually looking for a novice routine into powerlifting after I finish Fierce 5.

    My question is would this still be recommended even if my lifts are high? I have yet to do any 1 RM on any of my compound lifts per guidance of F5, But Ill be 365LB DL next week, 255LB Squat, 230LB Bench.. I hope to finish the program at 405 Squat, 500+ DL 305-315 LB Bench. If I don't stall obviously.

    Would this still be recommended as I want to eventually attempt to compete one day.
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  3. #33
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    I am really diggin this new pattern of "up 5/10 or down 5/10", vs the normal "5x5" of "up 5/10 or down 10%".

    Greyskull LP tried to fix the soul sucking deload by having an AMRAP at the end so you could at least increase your reps.
    At least with this program your worst case week you are only down 15/30 lbs and can catch right back up the following week.

    Still i wonder if i can roll this into a 5-6 day program by splitting anything up. I only have 30-40min to lift per day. I do not have a 2 hour block 3x a week to work/shower/etc.
    I'm not sure how effective it would be but potentially you could make it work over 6 days. Bench, squat, back exercises from A, press, deadlift, back exercises from B. This
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  4. #34
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Metalmank View Post
    I'm actually looking for a novice routine into powerlifting after I finish Fierce 5.

    My question is would this still be recommended even if my lifts are high? I have yet to do any 1 RM on any of my compound lifts per guidance of F5, But Ill be 365LB DL next week, 255LB Squat, 230LB Bench.. I hope to finish the program at 405 Squat, 500+ DL 305-315 LB Bench. If I don't stall obviously.

    Would this still be recommended as I want to eventually attempt to compete one day.
    I'd start out conservatively but I couldn't see why not. I'd probably stick to A-B-A and do the lighter back squat option on one of the A days. Bench twice a week but maybe do either close grip on the other or try the 4x3,1x3+ approach for a heavier day. Doug's best triple was always his opening weight.
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  5. #35
    Registered User Metalmank's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by grouchyjarhead View Post
    I'd start out conservatively but I couldn't see why not. I'd probably stick to A-B-A and do the lighter back squat option on one of the A days. Bench twice a week but maybe do either close grip on the other or try the 4x3,1x3+ approach for a heavier day. Doug's best triple was always his opening weight.
    Okay neat, Ill definitely sub this for later.
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  6. #36
    Registered User cwcmac's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great write up and program. I'm going to start this one this week and was wondering if there are any concerns about mixing in some high intensity cardio work a couple days a week? Will this impeded progress/recovery and be an issue?

    I was thinking something like this: Lift/Off Day/Lift/Cardio Day/Lift/Cardio Day/Day Off. For cardio work I was thinking focus on some HIT type work for 20 minutes or lower intensity for 45 minutes.
    Last edited by cwcmac; 01-23-2016 at 09:17 PM.
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  7. #37
    Juan Sick Kent IronKrazy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cwcmac View Post
    Thanks for the great write up and program. I'm going to start this one this week and was wondering if there are any concerns about mixing in some high intensity cardio work a couple days a week? Will this impeded progress/recovery and be an issue?

    I was thinking something like this: Lift/Off Day/Lift/Cardio Day/Lift/Cardio Day/Day Off. For cardio work I was thinking focus on some HIT type work for 45 minutes.
    It's all in what your body will allow you to do. There is no rule saying you can't try. Though from my brief go at this routine, depending on your daily tasks and especially when the weight gets heavy, you may be too wore out to do HIT. I've read that it's best to do low impact cardio, like biking, swimming, row machine and jogging which may be fine but your tendons and muscles are going to need the down time. I don't know what your goals are or what your stats are but it's a brutal workout, especially the squat and deadlift. I'm not sure how high up in weight one could go with this routine and not die lol but it will certainly propel you to higher numbers quickly if you're a beginner. I only wish I had the time to recover from the workouts, as in get enough sleep and to rest my body while working my 9-5 as that is physical too because it really is a fun program! I loved ramping up to my 1x2 and 1x1 sets but the effort needed is very intense.

    IMO run the program as is and see how you feel first. If your goal is more toward strength and not so much athletic, you're going to need every ounce of energy during the week to get through the sessions, especially if you do it 3x's a week.
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  8. #38
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cwcmac View Post
    Thanks for the great write up and program. I'm going to start this one this week and was wondering if there are any concerns about mixing in some high intensity cardio work a couple days a week? Will this impeded progress/recovery and be an issue?

    I was thinking something like this: Lift/Off Day/Lift/Cardio Day/Lift/Cardio Day/Day Off. For cardio work I was thinking focus on some HIT type work for 20 minutes or lower intensity for 45 minutes.
    Alternating might be too much in my opinion. It really depends on your goals but I would say for conditioning you don't want to go crazy with it on this routine. If you do low intensity work you would be okay, maybe do HIIT once a week as your last day but adding too much will probably frustrate you and wear you out.
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  9. #39
    Registered User cwcmac's Avatar
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    Thanks Iron and Krazy, I appreciate the feedback.
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  10. #40
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    On dead/squat. Im assuming that if i get a set of 8 on the first set, i still add like 10lbs and go for a set of 4, add 10lbs go for a set of 3, etc? Or do you do death by sets and keep adding 10lbs-1 rep from your amrap set and end up with 7-8 sets?
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  11. #41
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    On dead/squat. Im assuming that if i get a set of 8 on the first set, i still add like 10lbs and go for a set of 4, add 10lbs go for a set of 3, etc? Or do you do death by sets and keep adding 10lbs-1 rep from your amrap set and end up with 7-8 sets?
    Correct. So if you do say 300x8, you would still progress 310x4, 320x3, 330x2, 340x1. You don't want to max out every workout.
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  12. #42
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Tried the squat pattern and it didnt do so well

    205 for 8 first set
    215 for 4
    225 for 3
    235 did one and had to bail

    My "any day of the week" max is 265. I did only do 2min rests, but ive been training with 2 min rests of 2 years now and 235 is my 5 rep week.
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  13. #43
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Tried the squat pattern and it didnt do so well

    205 for 8 first set
    215 for 4
    225 for 3
    235 did one and had to bail

    My "any day of the week" max is 265. I did only do 2min rests, but ive been training with 2 min rests of 2 years now and 235 is my 5 rep week.
    If your max is 265, you may have started too heavy. Your final single would have been 255. Try maybe 10% lower to give yourself room to develop. So maybe...

    185x5+
    195x4
    205x3
    215x2
    225x1

    First several workouts should be conservative. This way you'd have a few workouts in before you started pushing for a heavier single than you've hit before. Volume work before a heavy single is unusual for most people as well, so go lighter initially to adapt.
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  14. #44
    Juan Sick Kent IronKrazy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Tried the squat pattern and it didnt do so well

    205 for 8 first set
    215 for 4
    225 for 3
    235 did one and had to bail

    My "any day of the week" max is 265. I did only do 2min rests, but ive been training with 2 min rests of 2 years now and 235 is my 5 rep week.
    lol.

    I believe it's because you're doing or did a 1x8, 1x4 and a 1x3 set of "working weight". Normally you would just warm up with what you do and rep out a few sets of 5 or whatever with 235lbs. This time you're burning out your muscles with semi working weight and THEN you're trying to do your actual working weight. Also the 10lb jump with burned out muscles won't do anybody a bit of good. It's one of the reasons I'm going to do 5lbs and at some point VERY soon get micro plates for this program as well just to have.

    I too, even though I got through my last session of higher weight jumped too high. Went from 140lbs 5+ to 195lbs 5+ lol. So this time, tonight actually, I'm going to get back into the squats with 145lbs and go from there.

    I think it's a fun and challenging enough program to enjoy constantly being at a certain level of weight while strengthening and growing the muscles with the hypertrophy work in the set/rep scheme. It will bite you if your ego takes control and makes you think you can handle reppin out a good amount of weight for the first set and then try to do those last few sets. Which is evident by my own doing.
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  15. #45
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    Bumping for more people to see
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    Originally Posted by amar654 View Post
    Bumping for more people to see
    Can't rep you again but thanks brother!
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    One of my athletes is now running this program. A defensive end who is already pretty big and strong and looking to get bigger and stronger for a scholarship. He is going to run this until spring ball rolls around and then I will switch him back to a less intese strength program so he can recover better from all the outdoor work he will do. And everytime I link this thread im gonna bump it
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    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by amar654 View Post
    One of my athletes is now running this program. A defensive end who is already pretty big and strong and looking to get bigger and stronger for a scholarship. He is going to run this until spring ball rolls around and then I will switch him back to a less intese strength program so he can recover better from all the outdoor work he will do. And everytime I link this thread im gonna bump it
    That is awesome. Any questions/concerns shoot them my way. Keep me posted on his progress.
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  19. #49
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Decided to switch squats to 185 which would be like a 9 rep workout as recomended.

    I somehow survived squats @185 for 8 and it took all had to do 10lb increments in order to do a single at 235.
    Deadlifts where more manageable and i could start at 70% with 10lb bumps and it took less effort than squats.

    Still at the end of the day you are ending with a single at 80-85% of your 1rm. This does not seem powerlifting friendly at all. Without some peaking program before a meet your connecting tissue is no going to be ready for a single that is 15-20% higher than your heaviest working weight.

    I guess after so many weeks i might get adjusted to the routine so i would start with 5-6 reps at 235 and end with a 265 single, but i dont see how i could add 20-30% to the starting weight in order to hit a single that is around my technical max.


    I dont think i miss read anything and this program was meant to be a meso cycle per session. Here is my current 3 set meso and i dont have a chance in hell of getting close to it on this program at this point.

    Week Squat
    1 60% 3x10 165
    2 65% 3x10 177.5
    3 70% 3x8 192.5
    4 75% 3x8 205
    5 80% 3x5 220
    6 85% 3x5 232.5
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  20. #50
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    ...
    So I guess you skipped right over my post and didn't read what I said. You are burning out your muscles too early with semi working weight and you are then jumping up by 10lbs each set! That's too much.

    Why are you continuing to do 10lb increases? Do 5lbs instead. Even get micro plates if you have to. The weight will get heavier, you just have to give it time.
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  21. #51
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Decided to switch squats to 185 which would be like a 9 rep workout as recomended.

    I somehow survived squats @185 for 8 and it took all had to do 10lb increments in order to do a single at 235.
    Deadlifts where more manageable and i could start at 70% with 10lb bumps and it took less effort than squats.

    Still at the end of the day you are ending with a single at 80-85% of your 1rm. This does not seem powerlifting friendly at all. Without some peaking program before a meet your connecting tissue is no going to be ready for a single that is 15-20% higher than your heaviest working weight.

    I guess after so many weeks i might get adjusted to the routine so i would start with 5-6 reps at 235 and end with a 265 single, but i dont see how i could add 20-30% to the starting weight in order to hit a single that is around my technical max.


    I dont think i miss read anything and this program was meant to be a meso cycle per session. Here is my current 3 set meso and i dont have a chance in hell of getting close to it on this program at this point.

    Week Squat
    1 60% 3x10 165
    2 65% 3x10 177.5
    3 70% 3x8 192.5
    4 75% 3x8 205
    5 80% 3x5 220
    6 85% 3x5 232.5
    This is not meant to be a peaking program as written, for the same reason that Starting Strength isn't. Doing multiple sets of 6 in the bench press is a good combination of developing size and strength, but for purely improving your 1RM in the bench press there are more optimal ways. That's why earlier I mentioned Doug Young would start with the 4x6, then eventually progress to 5x3 before a meet. For the squat and deadlift, he would stop maxing on the set of 5 and work up the singles until his final single was what he wanted his opening weight to be. I didn't put those options in there, as preparing for a competition is not the primary goal of this routine.

    This is something that can be used in between contests or by someone who has no interest in competing. The goal is focusing on the power lifts while developing mass. No beginner program should be used as a peaking program for a meet.
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  22. #52
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    Originally Posted by IronKrazy View Post
    So I guess you skipped right over my post and didn't read what I said. You are burning out your muscles too early with semi working weight and you are then jumping up by 10lbs each set! That's too much.

    Why are you continuing to do 10lb increases? Do 5lbs instead. Even get micro plates if you have to. The weight will get heavier, you just have to give it time.
    ". From here, each set you will add 10 pounds (though some trainees can add 15-20 pounds depending on their squatting proficiency) and drop one repetition. So if you squatted 300x5, your next four sets would be 310x4, 320x3, 330x2, 340x1."

    I dont see 5lbs anywhere. And adding 5lbs would just exacerbate the problem.


    If i sniff around a bit you could say you should vary the weight 10-15% from the first set to the last.



    Again my issue is im working with way less than 85% with way less than 5 reps, on a program that is for power.

    How can you be training for power when your top set is 75% of your 1rm if i did 5lb bumps?

    if anything maybe i should add weight to my first set to get it down to 5 reps so im not moving as much tonnage, but per my orginal problem, 205 and 10lb bumps was too much, and 185 and and was just barely manageable.
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  23. #53
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    ". From here, each set you will add 10 pounds (though some trainees can add 15-20 pounds depending on their squatting proficiency) and drop one repetition. So if you squatted 300x5, your next four sets would be 310x4, 320x3, 330x2, 340x1."

    I dont see 5lbs anywhere. And adding 5lbs would just exacerbate the problem.

    if anything maybe i should add weight to my first set to get it down to 5 reps so im not moving as much tonnage, but per my orginal problem, 205 and 10lb bumps was too much, and 185 and and was just barely manageable.
    I was going to say the same thing Grouchy did. Adding 10lbs+, especially for squat is going to come to a halt just as it does for SS or SL's. That part of the write up is meant for true beginners I'm sure. Though with us, especially you, who can move decent weight you'll have to drop it to be able to progress on this program or any program when you near your max effort. IMO this program is all about the deloads and working your way back up to hit your 1RM at the end. You basically fluctuate within certain weight, deloading and progressing to practice your 1RM attempts. It's obviously different to deloading and working with a 3x5 or 5x5 routine but the principle is still there. Only your advancing 20lbs or 40lbs at the end to experience doing 1RM's. Instead of trying to add just 5lbs to your lift.

    I merely suggested the 5lb increase to be able to get through your squat session because you were burning out your muscles early with that 8 rep set of semi working weight. At some point yes you will level out on the 5+ to where you're doing 300-305-310-315-320 for example OR 300-310-320-330-340. Either way it's a going to become either a 20lb 1RM attempt at the end or a 40lb attempt. It's what your body is going to be capable of handling.

    So yeah try the progression of 225-235-245-255-265 and see how it feels. OR try and beat your PR of 265 and go for 230-240-250-260-270 and see if you can get through it. If you can't deload 5-10% and try again.

    Also when you do level out and can't get through your last couple sets, you deload 5-10-15% and start again with 5 or 10lb jumps. I'm starting to see that this program is going to have a lot of early deloading and working your way back up, especially for beginners, compared to SS or SL's. That's the whole idea behind it. Fluctuating around a certain amount of weight with deloads and progression and experiencing/practicing 1RM attempts at the end. You WILL get stronger as you add weight, weither it be 5 or 10lbs. It's just going to be a bit different doing a 54321 session.
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  24. #54
    Registered User GrumpleAl's Avatar
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    Long-time lurker but a first time poster and I had to bump this up.

    I did Stronglifts for three months and did well but the constant squats were hard on my old body even with sufficient rest. Ran a month of All-Pros but even with lighter weight the rep scheme wore me down plus I really missed deadlifts. I'm not sure if my body is built for high-reps lower-weight.

    I've been running this program for a couple weeks now and I absolutely love it. I'm still building back to my Stronglifts levels but I feel like this is the routine for me. It's a simple progression scheme but every workout leaves me tired (not beat up) and feeling a great sense of accomplishment which've been missing since my run with Stronglifts. Thanks for the routine grouchy. It deserves better attention IMO.
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  25. #55
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GrumpleAl View Post
    Long-time lurker but a first time poster and I had to bump this up.

    I did Stronglifts for three months and did well but the constant squats were hard on my old body even with sufficient rest. Ran a month of All-Pros but even with lighter weight the rep scheme wore me down plus I really missed deadlifts. I'm not sure if my body is built for high-reps lower-weight.

    I've been running this program for a couple weeks now and I absolutely love it. I'm still building back to my Stronglifts levels but I feel like this is the routine for me. It's a simple progression scheme but every workout leaves me tired (not beat up) and feeling a great sense of accomplishment which've been missing since my run with Stronglifts. Thanks for the routine grouchy. It deserves better attention IMO.
    Thanks GrumpleAl! I am glad you are enjoying it. I am more than happy to answer any questions as they come along. Keep me posted on your progress too!
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  26. #56
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    Originally Posted by grouchyjarhead View Post
    Thanks GrumpleAl! I am glad you are enjoying it. I am more than happy to answer any questions as they come along. Keep me posted on your progress too!
    Since you offered... a couple questions.

    I know there's no hard and fast rule and everyone is different but at what point do you think you're relying more on building muscle to progress verses form perfection/CNS adaptions?

    Accessory lifts - I notice with my OHP that my sticking point seems to be more related to triceps weakness. Any problem with adding 3x10 skill crushers after routine A? Also I like Romanian Deads for the stretch and hamstring building. Any problem with adding 3x10 after the B routine?

    Thanks. After seeing so little progress with home DVD's and dumbbell-only workouts for so many years it's been great seeing how much better my body reacts to the compound heavy workouts.
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  27. #57
    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GrumpleAl View Post
    Since you offered... a couple questions.

    I know there's no hard and fast rule and everyone is different but at what point do you think you're relying more on building muscle to progress verses form perfection/CNS adaptions?

    Accessory lifts - I notice with my OHP that my sticking point seems to be more related to triceps weakness. Any problem with adding 3x10 skill crushers after routine A? Also I like Romanian Deads for the stretch and hamstring building. Any problem with adding 3x10 after the B routine?

    Thanks. After seeing so little progress with home DVD's and dumbbell-only workouts for so many years it's been great seeing how much better my body reacts to the compound heavy workouts.
    I'd run it as written for about 8 weeks before adding accessory work but I certainly don't see any issues with what you're proposing other than I would add the RDLs at the end of Workout A and the skull crushers on B. Reason being after hitting deadlifts hard, you don't want to push the lower back more by doing RDLs in the same workout. 3 sets of 10 reps would be perfect for both.
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  28. #58
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    I'm training my 12 yr old son, so, we'll be starting low and slow. I like the volume for reinforcing form, which I'll be closely monitoring. I also love the pull vs push ratio and focus on the posterior chain and core.

    I don't have a lat machine in the garage, what do you think about wide grip bodyweight pull-ups until he hits 15 reps, then switching to the standard progression with 5lb increases?

    Is there a better substitute for lat pulldowns?
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    Originally Posted by RockCrab View Post
    I'm training my 12 yr old son, so, we'll be starting low and slow. I like the volume for reinforcing form, which I'll be closely monitoring. I also love the pull vs push ratio and focus on the posterior chain and core.

    I don't have a lat machine in the garage, what do you think about wide grip bodyweight pull-ups until he hits 15 reps, then switching to the standard progression with 5lb increases?

    Is there a better substitute for lat pulldowns?
    Pull-ups are a fine substitution. I'd guess once you can hit 10 reps/set start adding weight (I'm not at that point yet but I don't think the higher reps are really going to help you with building strength, just endurance).

    I agree with the pull vs. push ratio. The heavier focus on back work is much better balanced IMO. I have shoulder issues from too many push exercises and not enough pull exercises so now my shoulders get sore instead of hurt.
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    Tactical Barbell crew grouchyjarhead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RockCrab View Post
    I'm training my 12 yr old son, so, we'll be starting low and slow. I like the volume for reinforcing form, which I'll be closely monitoring. I also love the pull vs push ratio and focus on the posterior chain and core.

    I don't have a lat machine in the garage, what do you think about wide grip bodyweight pull-ups until he hits 15 reps, then switching to the standard progression with 5lb increases?

    Is there a better substitute for lat pulldowns?
    Pull ups are a solid replacement. Initially I would start on volume. Aim for 5 total reps in a workout initially, no matter how many sets it takes. Once he can hit the total amount of reps in two sets, go for 10, then 15, then 20. Once he can hit the 20 in two sets, then I'd look into the 3x6+, 1x6+ with weighted pullups.
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