Squats don't build hamstrings!

[2020Wellness]

First off I think you give out great advice here, that said.
It surprises me that you would recommend more Hamstrings work to Quadriceps. Not only are the quads the bigger muscle group, they are the more active muscle group in everyday activity. The vast majority of quad exercises have ham involvement which confounds me that you would suggest a 1:1 ratio at the minimum. That seems to be counter-intuitive to your stance on imbalances.

The quads are the more explosive muscle group in sports, and the more aesthetic group in bodybuilding. Although there is no black and white ratio proven(clinically studies supporting one way or the other),the vast majority of professional bodybuilders have a higher quadriceps to hamstrings routine. Going as far back as Arnold to modern day bodybuilders like Jay Cutler, even check out routines on this website its clear. Since it can't definitively be proven more quads work is beneficial to hams or vice versa, I tend to lean on the professional majority until it is proven otherwise.
If there is some support for a 1:1 ratio or greater I'd like the info because I sure as hell don't know everything( no surprise therrr)

Since the biceps/triceps/elbow present a similar situation to the quads/hamstrings/knee, I'm curious to your recommended ratio of bicep to tricep work. I think it's a good discussion point to mention.

Also, I think we may need to define what the 1 to 1 is actually comparing. Are you talking about total volume being 1 to 1 or are you talking about exercise number and sets/reps per exercise being 1 to 1. Those two situations aren't the same, so I think it matters too.

When I agree with the 1 to 1, I'm not talking about making the quad total volume equal to the hamstring total volume. I'm talking about doing the best you can to hit the quads and the hamstrings each with the same number of exercises and the same number of sets/reps. I choose this path because the quads are clearly going to be able to move more weight per rep, obviously pushing them ahead in the volume game when sets/reps per muscle group are kept 1 to 1.

Thanks for posting

[davisj3537]

First off I think you give out great advice here, that said.
It surprises me that you would recommend more Hamstrings work to Quadriceps. Not only are the quads the bigger muscle group, they are the more active muscle group in everyday activity. The vast majority of quad exercises have ham involvement which confounds me that you would suggest a 1:1 ratio at the minimum. That seems to be counter-intuitive to your stance on imbalances.

The quads are the more explosive muscle group in sports, and the more aesthetic group in bodybuilding. Although there is no black and white ratio proven(clinically studies supporting one way or the other),the vast majority of professional bodybuilders have a higher quadriceps to hamstrings routine. Going as far back as Arnold to modern day bodybuilders like Jay Cutler, even check out routines on this website its clear. Since it can't definitively be proven more quads work is beneficial to hams or vice versa, I tend to lean on the professional majority until it is proven otherwise.
If there is some support for a 1:1 ratio or greater I'd like the info because I sure as hell don't know everything( no surprise therrr)

I've spent a lot of time seeking an answer to this question and will continue to do that so I appreciate your willingness to comb through the details.

The basis of my conclusion is simply risk based. Overdeveloped quads can lead to a myriad of issues in the hip and up the kinetic chain. While I'm sure there are some issues that can arise from overdeveloped hams, it isn't something you ever hear about. My research up to this point has been based around common injuries (got to start somewhere) and thus far the dots I've been connecting lead to quads and/or lack of mobility in many cases.

Am I being overly cautious? Yeah, maybe. After a hip surgery and two shoulder surgeries I feel that is normal though. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. That's just how I'm handling the "risk" until I feel confident doing otherwise. The confidence comes from a sh*tload of reading and watching tape unfortunately.

I'm not educated in this stuff. I'm just a regular dude trying to bridge the gap. When I can stomach it I'm actually working through the lower body portion of this series now. http://functionalstability.com/ If there is any discussion of it you can be sure I'll post it.









Edit: Lower Body DVD 5 is all about deadlifts and it's fuggin sweet, but thus far no discussion of ratios.

[Lightsoft]

just do deadlifts

Boom.

[2020Wellness]

just do deadlifts

Boom.

RDLs, leg curl variations, GHRs!

[MyEgoProblem]

RDLs, leg curl variations, GHRs!

I hate when people suggest GHR!

I don't have access ;-)

[Gxp23]

I hate when people suggest GHR!

I don't have access ;-)

I have managed to improvise with a cpl machines at gym, just not the same though.

[2020Wellness]

I hate when people suggest GHR!

I don't have access ;-)

If you have a lat pulldown, you can usually kneel on the butt pad and put your ankles under the thigh pad, facing away from the machine.

Or, you kneel on the floor in front of the dumbbell rack, facing away from the rack and put your ankles against the lower rail of the rack. Kneel on a pad and also put a pad between your ankles and the rack for comfort.

There are ways to get it done, but they're never going to be quite as smooth as an actual GHR machine.....

[MyEgoProblem]

Yeah. They just feel off with a macguyver setup :-(

[davisj3537]

I'm jelly of anyone that's gotten to use a real one at all. I've only tried the "macguyver" version and they just feel crappy.

[MyEgoProblem]

I'm jelly of anyone that's gotten to use a real one at all. I've only tried the "macguyver" version and they just feel crappy.

They end up been nordic ham curls :-(

[Yobra33]

Split squats are the best for hamstrings and glutes

[2020Wellness]

Split squats are the best for hamstrings and glutes

You'd think they'd hit the hams hard like alot of people have probably told you, but the mechanics of that front leg is just like a squat. You know what that means.......those hams just aren't worked that hard.

Split squats are best for quads and glutes. If you're programming them in thinking they're doing a number on your hamstrings, make sure to correct for that mistake and add in another hamstring movement!

[yourfuzzybear]

Thanks everyone for the good info.
Any recommendations for the best hamstring exercises I can do? I'm recovering from a disc herniation and cannot deadlift for the better part of a year now. Romanian deads used to be my ****, but now it seems like I can only do leg curl variations, some form of lunge. hyperextensions, and ham/glute kickbacks. I'm already fkd hamstring wise in terms of proportionality for the next year, but I can help balance that out once I start incorporating RDL's. Thoughts on the approach I should make?

[supramax]

Thanks everyone for the good info.
Any recommendations for the best hamstring exercises I can do? I'm recovering from a disc herniation and cannot deadlift for the better part of a year now. Romanian deads used to be my ****, but now it seems like I can only do leg curl variations, some form of lunge. hyperextensions, and ham/glute kickbacks. I'm already fkd hamstring wise in terms of proportionality for the next year, but I can help balance that out once I start incorporating RDL's. Thoughts on the approach I should make?

The best hamstring exercise I've ever come across is the (heavy) kettlebell swing, but for you who is recovering from a herniated disk, I would say the hyperextension. I'm not sure what position would be best, though, because it's less about working the hamstrings than it is about protecting your back, at least until you're fully healed. Check them out, experiment cautiously.

Low pad position +rounded back = spinal erectors, glutes, hams all worked dynamically

Low pad + flat back = spinal erectors worked isometrically, hams/glutes worked dynamically

High pad + rounded back = spinal erectors worked dynamically, glutes/hams isometrically

High pad + flat back = can’t be done through any meaningful range of motion


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/tra...echnique.html/

[2020Wellness]

The best hamstring exercise I've ever come across is the (heavy) kettlebell swing, but for you who is recovering from a herniated disk, I would say the hyperextension. I'm not sure what position would be best, though, because it's less about working the hamstrings than it is about protecting your back, at least until you're fully healed. Check them out, experiment cautiously.

Low pad position +rounded back = spinal erectors, glutes, hams all worked dynamically

Low pad + flat back = spinal erectors worked isometrically, hams/glutes worked dynamically

High pad + rounded back = spinal erectors worked dynamically, glutes/hams isometrically

High pad + flat back = can’t be done through any meaningful range of motion


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/tra...echnique.html/

While I don't agree tha hypers are the best choice for hamstring recruitment for the guy asking the question above, I would like to add my own personal variation of hyperextensions that torch the hamstrings and glutes dynamically, while working the erectors isometrically. Here they are!

[Jasonk282]

I hate when people suggest GHR!

I don't have access ;-)

Weighted barbell and place your ankles under it.

[2020Wellness]

Thanks everyone for the good info.
Any recommendations for the best hamstring exercises I can do? I'm recovering from a disc herniation and cannot deadlift for the better part of a year now. Romanian deads used to be my ****, but now it seems like I can only do leg curl variations, some form of lunge. hyperextensions, and ham/glute kickbacks. I'm already fkd hamstring wise in terms of proportionality for the next year, but I can help balance that out once I start incorporating RDL's. Thoughts on the approach I should make?

If you're looking for pure/isolation hamstring recruitment, obviously leg curl variations are going to be the king. You should be able to get plenty of growth in those hamstrings from high volume and high frequency leg curls rotating through low, medium, and high rep ranges on a day to day or week to week basis. Examples:

Day to Day @ 3x per week
Day 1 - 4-5 x 5
Day 2 - 3-4 x 12
Day 3 - 2-3 x 20

Week to Week @ 3x per week
Week 1 Days 1, 2, 3 - 4-5 x 5
Week 2 Days 1, 2, 3 - 3-4 x 12
Week 3 Days 1, 2, 3 - 2-3 x 20

Do those options make sense?

[supramax]

2020Wellness,

You're absolutely right. It's been like a million years since I did leg curls and I never even thought of them.

[bigasianboi]

wide-stance, low bar squats seem to have built my hamstrings quite well
but then again that's also cause I deadlift a lot

[yourfuzzybear]

Thank you supramax for the good info, I'll look into hyperextension variations as I progress in lower back involvement.

If you're looking for pure/isolation hamstring recruitment, obviously leg curl variations are going to be the king. You should be able to get plenty of growth in those hamstrings from high volume and high frequency leg curls rotating through low, medium, and high rep ranges on a day to day or week to week basis. Examples:

Day to Day @ 3x per week
Day 1 - 4-5 x 5
Day 2 - 3-4 x 12
Day 3 - 2-3 x 20

Week to Week @ 3x per week
Week 1 Days 1, 2, 3 - 4-5 x 5
Week 2 Days 1, 2, 3 - 3-4 x 12
Week 3 Days 1, 2, 3 - 2-3 x 20

Do those options make sense?

Yee, thanks man. The routine I was doing and am about to start up again includes 2 leg days every 7 days, so do you think I should implement that third day like you said just for hammies and increase my ratio of hamstrings to quads 3:2 like that then? It would make sense for me to do that IMO, anyway, since my normal leg days will lack deadlifts and deadlift variations.
My plan for basically all of my future leg days goes like this:

5-8 sets squat//front squat (includes all warmup sets)
3-5 sets lunge variation (emphasizing stretch in hams and glutes)
4 sets leg press
4 sets single-leg leg press//glute-ham kickbacks
4 sets hamstring curl

then usual calves

Thoughts on hamstring/quad/glute ratios considering my inability to deadlift/deadlift variations?
Thanks in advance, I really appreciate it

[Kevice25]

Squat is for quads........ so try split squat! It hurts so badly! But it's very good to build!

[2020Wellness]

Squat is for quads........ so try split squat! It hurts so badly! But it's very good to build!

Split squats are also for quads and glutes, just like squats. Both the knee and the hip undergo flexion at the same time, meaning the hamstring lengthens and shortens minimally. As a result, it's recruitment is about 25% of quad recruitment. To target the hamstrings as a prioritized muscle group, you really shouldn't be thinking about any squat variation. If you look at a split squat from the side, it's essentially just a single legged squat with support from the back leg.

Thanks for posting.

[VinceField]

wide-stance, low bar squats seem to have built my hamstrings quite well
but then again that's also cause I deadlift a lot

LOL This is like saying, "Bicep curls have build my triceps pretty well. But it could also be all the close grip bench and skullcrushers that I've been doing."

[2020Wellness]

wide-stance, low bar squats seem to have built my hamstrings quite well
but then again that's also cause I deadlift a lot

LOL This is like saying, "Bicep curls have build my triceps pretty well. But it could also be all the close grip bench and skullcrushers that I've been doing."

Exactly Vince. It's not the squats that have been building your hamstrings, even if they're low bar. You can chalk that ham growth up to your DL variations and leg curls.

[chazzy1864]

I'm jelly of anyone that's gotten to use a real one at all. I've only tried the "macguyver" version and they just feel crappy.

I had access to one while in Germany. I was the only person who actually did GHRs on it. Everyone else did sit ups or back extensions. I'd notice some people quizzically look at me when I did them and I couldn't help but think they were like, 'look at that guy, doesn't even know how to properly do a back extension."

[2020Wellness]

Thank you supramax for the good info, I'll look into hyperextension variations as I progress in lower back involvement.
Take that slow, as for you to actually challenge the hams and glutes, you need a good amount of weight. With a herniated disc, that may be a bad idea.

Yee, thanks man. The routine I was doing and am about to start up again includes 2 leg days every 7 days, so do you think I should implement that third day like you said just for hammies and increase my ratio of hamstrings to quads 3:2 like that then? It would make sense for me to do that IMO, anyway, since my normal leg days will lack deadlifts and deadlift variations.
Right now your hamstrings should be treated like a weak point, playing catch-up with the rest of your leg muscles (especially your quads). So I wouldn't build an entire third leg day, but I would drop in the leg curls like I mentioned on an upper body day so you have a total of 3x activation per week. That's all you need to do on that third day is your leg curls.

My plan for basically all of my future leg days goes like this:

5-8 sets squat//front squat (includes all warmup sets)
3-5 sets lunge variation (emphasizing stretch in hams and glutes)
4 sets leg press
4 sets single-leg leg press//glute-ham kickbacks
4 sets hamstring curl
then usual calves
I would consider placing the hamstring curls before the kickbacks, as the hams are a priority for you and the glutes really aren't. If you're going to be squatting, lunging, and leg pressing twice per week, the quads and glutes don't need any special attention. Squats, leg presses, and lunges all hit the glutes and quads very well. I'd even consider leaving the kickbacks out if that day gets to be too long with the three compound leg movements, hamstring curls, and calf work on top of every else. Trust me, you don't need glute isolation unless they're also considered a weak point.

Thoughts on hamstring/quad/glute ratios considering my inability to deadlift/deadlift variations?
Are you able to do single legged romanian deadlifts? Those will allow you to seriously decrease the load on your back and still tax the posterior chain unilaterally. If you could do those, you wouldn't be reliant solely on leg curls and could build a more well-rounded leg day. They don't even have to be standing on just one leg, you can do a split stance RDL and you focus on the hamstring of the leg that is in front.

Thanks in advance, I really appreciate it

You're welcome! See Bold.

[davisj3537]

Weighted barbell and place your ankles under it.

I've tried it and it feels like dog poop:/

2020Wellness,

You're absolutely right. It's been like a million years since I did leg curls and I never even thought of them.

Knowing you're a home gym kind of guy, you can do them with DBs and/or bands. Not the best, but you can macguyver it. I find both providing a much better load during full ROM, but it's a bit more trouble.

I had access to one while in Germany. I was the only person who actually did GHRs on it. Everyone else did sit ups or back extensions. I'd notice some people quizzically look at me when I did them and I couldn't help but think they were like, 'look at that guy, doesn't even know how to properly do a back extension."

You fukking noob. lmao

[Jasonk282]

I've tried it and it feels like dog poop:/

Indeed, but if you don;t have acess to the real thing...improvise, adapt, overcome

[supramax]

...
Knowing you're a home gym kind of guy, you can do them with DBs and/or bands. Not the best, but you can macguyver it. I find both providing a much better load during full ROM, but it's a bit more trouble...

I've got a York 2001 in the barn. I hate leg curls! When I do hypers, I try to position myself so my lower back fills up with blood before I feel anything in the hams. I'll say it again: the greatest exercise I've ever found for the hamstings and glutes and to make them a continuity, is the heavy kettlebell swing.

[VinceField]

Knowing you're a home gym kind of guy, you can do them with DBs and/or bands. Not the best, but you can macguyver it. I find both providing a much better load during full ROM, but it's a bit more trouble.

Definitely. I tie a plate to my ankle with a rope, stand on my bench and do ham curls one leg at a time. I'm able to get a full range of motion too.