Squats - New Discovery

[Mark1T]

Yes, another squat thread, but this is new information, at least for me, that might even help some of you with knee issues.

I have always done squats weekly. Over the past several years, I have developed severe Patellar Tendinitis (PT), especially in my left knee. But, I never stopped doing squats. I just suffered through them and always afterward, my left knee would be in pain. It would take a week to recover from most of the pain. It would take me 20 minutes or more to try and warm up enough to do my working sets.

I have read many articles on PT and have watched many videos on stretching and treating it. Nothing has helped, but I did learn that PT is probably a result of the Patellar Tendon not being able to track properly over the knee when squatting.

I have tried various widths on my stance. But, I have never tried very narrow squat stance - until this morning! By narrow, I mean only several inches between my heels. In warming up, using only body-weight, I immediately felt a difference. Then, I went to using weight, 135 for two sets, then 185 for two sets and no pain. I did not go heavy, but for my working sets I did 5 sets of 6 reps with 265, ATG. ATG is hard to do with very narrow stance.

I was very surprised that going that narrow would make that much of a difference, but it did. I may have to do all of my squats narrow from now on, which is fine.

Some people have said that narrow stance squats is an accessory exercise, but I'm not so sure. It works the quads very well.

Feedback welcomed.

[pryme]

Yes, another squat thread, but this is new information, at least for me, that might even help some of you with knee issues.

I have always done squats weekly. Over the past several years, I have developed severe Patellar Tendinitis (PT), especially in my left knee. But, I never stopped doing squats. I just suffered through them and always afterward, my left knee would be in pain. It would take a week to recover from most of the pain. It would take me 20 minutes or more to try and warm up enough to do my working sets.

I have read many articles on PT and have watched many videos on stretching and treating it. Nothing has helped, but I did learn that PT is probably a result of the Patellar Tendon not being able to track properly over the knee when squatting.

I have tried various widths on my stance. But, I have never tried very narrow squat stance - until this morning! By narrow, I mean only several inches between my heels. In warming up, using only body-weight, I immediately felt a difference. Then, I went to using weight, 135 for two sets, then 185 for two sets and no pain. I did not go heavy, but for my working sets I did 5 sets of 6 reps with 265, ATG. ATG is hard to do with very narrow stance.

I was very surprised that going that narrow would make that much of a difference, but it did. I may have to do all of my squats narrow from now on, which is fine.

Some people have said that narrow stance squats is an accessory exercise, but I'm not so sure. It works the quads very well.

Feedback welcomed.

Glad you found pain relief Mark. I recently started doing deadlift stance box squats to help build deadlift power off the floor. And that's about 12" apart. That's the reason I made boxes actually. I plan to do a couple variations of box squats for awhile.
I've heard they help knee issues a lot. Try them. Also do you wear knee sleeves. If not get some asap. I won't squat over light weight without them now. Even the cheepy ones from Walmart help more than nothing. That's what I started with actually.

[Mark1T]

Thanks, pryme. Yes, I do use knee sleeves - Inzer Advanced Designs. They work well.

Box squats are good. I will try them with my narrow stances.

[Mr. Someday]

Wow...good info Mark. I have never heard that going close stance could help with that! And close stance definitely pummels your quad sweep, so it is a win-win in my book. You have to put the ego aside as it definitely isn't the sweet spot for putting up big numbers, but a very effective stance that I utilize more often as I get older (both there, on hacks and on the leg press). Plus for whatever reason I find it harder to really get sore in my quads as much as I used to, so focusing on sweep and doing things outside of my comfort zone (like a double drop set the other day) help get me there.

[Wayne Evans]

By narrow, I mean only several inches between my heels. Feedback welcomed.

Hmmm....I guess what comes to my pea brain what about the question of balance with a narrow stance as you increase weight significantly?
Will increasing weight demand a wider stance over time?

Obviously, I'm no academic with this stuff so that may be a dumb thought on my part.

Back to it....

[Mark1T]

^^Steve, thanks for chiming in. Hoping you would. I appreciate the confirmation. It pays to experiment. I'm going to start going outside the comfort zone, too, as per your suggestion. I could have gone harder today, but it was more of a trying out something new workout. Next week will be heavier with those drop sets.

Thanks.

[Mark1T]

Hmmm....I guess what comes to my pea brain what about the question of balance with a narrow stance as you increase weight significantly?
Will increasing weight demand a wider stance over time?

Obviously, I'm no academic with this stuff so that may be a dumb thought on my part.

Back to it....

Good observation, Wayne. Yes, balance comes into play with narrow stance and is a challenge with heaver weight I found out. But, just like any other exercise, you have to focus on form, think about the movement before execution, tighten up the glutes, lower back and core, then do it. Just being in the gym there is risk. I'm not afraid to risk injury, but I do everything I can to prevent injury.

Will increasing weight demand a wider stance over time?

Not for me. I intentionally experimented with narrow stance for the survival of my knees. The narrow stance from what I found this morning, alleviated the pain, as a result of my Patella tracking better over my knee. So, I probably will not go back to a wider stance. As for in the future I cannot progress anymore on the narrow squats, I will move to hacks with narrow stance for a period.

[Wayne Evans]

The narrow stance from what I found this morning, alleviated the pain, as a result of my Patella tracking better over my knee. So, I probably will not go back to a wider stance. As for in the future I cannot progress anymore on the narrow squats, I will move to hacks with narrow stance for a period.

Got it....I can envision (anatomically speaking) what you are saying.

Back to it weed hopper....

[jdtemple]

I have always done squats weekly. Over the past several years, I have developed severe Patellar Tendinitis (PT), especially in my left knee. But, I never stopped doing squats. I just suffered through them and always afterward, my left knee would be in pain. It would take a week to recover from most of the pain. It would take me 20 minutes or more to try and warm up enough to do my working sets.

Wow. This is me, exactly. Before my most recent layoff, I had it in both knees. I could barely walk for several days after leg day. Throw in a couple other injuries, both lifting and non-lifting related, and I ended up taking a full two months off. Now I'm back, and my left knee still hurts.

I have been thinking that it's a tracking problem, as you mentioned, but I never thought to try a very narrow stance when squatting. I wonder if the narrow stance forces you to push your knees out more, like you're supposed to when you squat, which fixes the tracking problem.

[Mark1T]

Wow. This is me, exactly. Before my most recent layoff, I had it in both knees. I could barely walk for several days after leg day. Throw in a couple other injuries, both lifting and non-lifting related, and I ended up taking a full two months off. Now I'm back, and my left knee still hurts.

I have been thinking that it's a tracking problem, as you mentioned, but I never thought to try a very narrow stance when squatting. I wonder if the narrow stance forces you to push your knees out more, like you're supposed to when you squat, which fixes the tracking problem.

jd, you need to try it. You asked if it helps or forces you to push your knees out more? Yes, it does. As we know, pulling your knees inward is not good and especially not good for your patella to track correctly. This occurs easily when we are first susceptible to incorrect tracking and when we place our feet shoulder width or more. By having the feet close, it prevents you from naturally moving your knees inward, as I experienced.

Place your heels about 5 to 6 inches from each other, with your toes flared out about 30 degrees or less. Try just doing a few body squats to feel it. When at the gym, do a few sets of body squats, a set with just the bar, then with some low weight to work on your form. I think and hope you will see a difference.

[Fishman15]

jd, you need to try it. You asked if it helps or forces you to push your knees out more? Yes, it does. As we know, pulling your knees inward is not good and especially not good for your patella to track correctly. This occurs easily when we are first susceptible to incorrect tracking and when we place our feet shoulder width or more. By having the feet close, it prevents you from naturally moving your knees inward, as I experienced.

Place your heels about 5 to 6 inches from each other, with your toes flared out about 30 degrees or less. Try just doing a few body squats to feel it. When at the gym, do a few sets of body squats, a set with just the bar, then with some low weight to work on your form. I think and hope you will see a difference.

Sitting here moping at home on squat day because my knee has been bothering me significantly lately. I'm not sure where the patella tendon is located but my knee is currently bothering me on the inside. I'm not sure it is even related to squatting. A couple months ago I did a 1 hour jog on the treadmill and woke up the next day and couldn't hardly get out of bed. At that time it was hurting underneath like it was hyperextended. Doc put me on a prescription Advil and after 3 days the pain was gone but I kept taking it for 3 weeks and enjoyed no more pain. Stopped taking it for a couple weeks and eventually the pain came back again and is not responding to that medication at all now.

This time the pain is on the inside of the knee. Feels stiff if I don't move it but hurts just to step on it most of the time now. Whatever it is...it sucks. I am so tired of being set back from injuries. But yes Mark, I have been working on a narrower stance with toes flared out more and in general I have still been able to squat somewhat. It has not felt like the squatting has increased my pain so I have still been doing it until today. Glad you found a route to keep the pain down...

[Brackneyc]

Sitting here moping at home on squat day because my knee has been bothering me significantly lately. I'm not sure where the patella tendon is located but my knee is currently bothering me on the inside. I'm not sure it is even related to squatting. A couple months ago I did a 1 hour jog on the treadmill and woke up the next day and couldn't hardly get out of bed. At that time it was hurting underneath like it was hyperextended. Doc put me on a prescription Advil and after 3 days the pain was gone but I kept taking it for 3 weeks and enjoyed no more pain. Stopped taking it for a couple weeks and eventually the pain came back again and is not responding to that medication at all now.

This time the pain is on the inside of the knee. Feels stiff if I don't move it but hurts just to step on it most of the time now. Whatever it is...it sucks. I am so tired of being set back from injuries. But yes Mark, I have been working on a narrower stance with toes flared out more and in general I have still been able to squat somewhat. It has not felt like the squatting has increased my pain so I have still been doing it until today. Glad you found a route to keep the pain down...

You may need a massage. Just be careful who you choose to do it.

[Fishman15]

You may need a massage. Just be careful who you choose to do it.

What if it moves? I've heard that's the sign...

[Mark1T]

^^Fishman, interesting and sorry for your injury. That sounds a little different, but it is possible that regular squats could exacerbate your knee issue. I would say experiment with various widths on your squats to see if that relieves any pressure. Or, you might need to back off. The patellar tendon attaches the bottom of the kneecap (patella) to the top of the shinbone (tibia). It is actually a ligament that connects to two different bones, the patella and the tibia.

*As a note, while doing these narrow stance squats, I tried my best to consciously maintain good form and pushing with the heels. These squats make you have a tendency to lean forward on the balls of your feet. You have to maintain form and think about where you are and drive up with the heels.

[Mark1T]

How much can you squat? I am deeks the pussy.

A whole lot more than your pussy ass, deeks. Have you ever done a squat?

[mjf100215]

I have the same issue in both knees. My tendons snap around like it's party time to the point that I and people near me can hear them when squatting. It's pretty damn nasty. They'd fatigue then start cracking then I was done and in pain for a few days.

I was using knee braces then upgraded to full wraps and use them even for my lightest squats. They're not for the elastic bounce, but just to strap my knees together. They help tons. I find that I needed the extra tightness over sleeves as they didn't hold as tight and the sleeve material always stretched out too fast. I can pull wraps as tight as I need.

I feel your pain. Glad you found relief and a way to keep pushing.

[jdtemple]

My knees are really noisy as well; always have been. Other people can hear them even when I walk up and down stairs. I'll play around with the narrow squats, but I'm sure my depth is going to suffer greatly because of it.

It sucks; just when I was starting to feel pretty good about my squats.

[Mark1T]

I have the same issue in both knees. My tendons snap around like it's party time to the point that I and people near me can hear them when squatting. It's pretty damn nasty. They'd fatigue then start cracking then I was done and in pain for a few days.

I was using knee braces then upgraded to full wraps and use them even for my lightest squats. They're not for the elastic bounce, but just to strap my knees together. They help tons. I find that I needed the extra tightness over sleeves as they didn't hold as tight and the sleeve material always stretched out too fast. I can pull wraps as tight as I need.

I feel your pain. Glad you found relief and a way to keep pushing.

My knees are bad, but not that bad. Yes, wraps work well. I have used wraps and sleeves and I need one or the other. But, with a wider stance using sleeves or wraps, my knees still hurt like hell. The narrow squats work, at least for now. Try the narrow. Hope something works and helps.

My knees are really noisy as well; always have been. Other people can hear them even when I walk up and down stairs. I'll play around with the narrow squats, but I'm sure my depth is going to suffer greatly because of it.

It sucks; just when I was starting to feel pretty good about my squats.

Don't worry about the depth. When you have a condition or injury, you have to re-focus, not quit and try new things. And, you might have to give up perfect form for a while. Partial squats when you have knee problems are ok. Post here on your progress.

[Mark1T]

Well, as expected, yesterday and today, my legs and butt are very sore. Stretching has helped. I have experienced more soreness before, and this is interesting because I can feel where the narrow-stance squats are working. A little different than wider stance. Glutes and quads are fired up. Next week I hope is good and I will be starting to progress in weight, and doing 5X6 or 7.

[grouchyjarhead]

I have bad knees. When I first started training, I did my squats wide and parallel. Once I got into Olympic lifting and began doing Oly-style squats, my knee pain diminished at a rapid rate. I prefer full squats to this day for that reason.

[Mark1T]

I have bad knees. When I first started training, I did my squats wide and parallel. Once I got into Olympic lifting and began doing Oly-style squats, my knee pain diminished at a rapid rate. I prefer full squats to this day for that reason.

Can you describe your feet position that you use now? It is more narrow? Glad you found some relief.

[beenayear]

So thankful I've never had knee problems. Shoulder on the other hand...

[ElrondHubbard]

Inspired by this thread, I tried some narrow-stance squats today. It did feel like an entirely different set of muscles was being activated. I may have to try it again, just to have it available as a change-up.

[Mark1T]

So thankful I've never had knee problems. Shoulder on the other hand...

Be very thankful.

Inspired by this thread, I tried some narrow-stance squats today. It did feel like an entirely different set of muscles was being activated. I may have to try it again, just to have it available as a change-up.

Glad you like the thread. Great for change up or for me now, I may have to stick with them.

[Fishman15]

Well, as expected, yesterday and today, my legs and butt are very sore. Stretching has helped. I have experienced more soreness before, and this is interesting because I can feel where the narrow-stance squats are working. A little different than wider stance. Glutes and quads are fired up. Next week I hope is good and I will be starting to progress in weight, and doing 5X6 or 7.

Mark, where do you feel the narrow stance is hitting your muscles differently vs wider or was the soreness just more intense?

[Mark1T]

Mark, where do you feel the narrow stance is hitting your muscles differently vs wider or was the soreness just more intense?

Definitely different. I would say that I feel like the outer-quads, lower-quads and mid-quads are getting hit very well, as well as the glutes. I believe the soreness is from just a change up. Feel good today. I did some stretching yesterday and felt better.

I'd like to hear from some other experienced lifters on where they believe narrow stance squats are hitting.

[paolo59]

Glad you found a stance that doesn't give you grief in the knees. It's necessary to tweak some things. There's normally a way to work around the sorry and limiting things that plague us at times. It just takes some messing around and experimentation to discover the remedy. LOL

[Mark1T]

Glad you found a stance that doesn't give you grief in the knees. It's necessary to tweak some things. There's normally a way to work around the sorry and limiting things that plague us at times. It just takes some messing around and experimentation to discover the remedy. LOL

Totally agree, my man. Thanks for stopping by

[paolo59]

Totally agree, my man. Thanks for stopping by

I tell you what, almost any overhead movement for triceps rips my elbows up. Ha! And at the moment any normal grip for flat bench tears into my right shoulder like nobody's business. I'm a firm believer in tweaking and experimentation to find something that doesn't hurt!

[DuracellBunny]

Definitely different. I would say that I feel like the outer-quads, lower-quads and mid-quads are getting hit very well, as well as the glutes. I believe the soreness is from just a change up. Feel good today. I did some stretching yesterday and felt better.

I'd like to hear from some other experienced lifters on where they believe narrow stance squats are hitting.

In general, the wider the stance the more hams you recruit and the narrower the stance the less hams you recruit. With a narrow stance, you are forcing your quads to do a greater % of the work, hence why they feel it more.

Depending on ratio of torso length to femur length and whether high bar or low bar, some people will feel more stress in their lower back and it can, oddly enough, either increase or decrease winking, depending on the individual.

As with any exercise, when moving towards the extremes (very narrow or very wide), individual idiosyncrasies of build become more apparent and of greater influence.