AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[nightanole]

Next week is going to be "test" week and i felt more comfortable this cycle than last cycle so i'm pretty certain i will pass test day.

Squats - in my previous cycle, i added extra reps by increasing the weight by 10% etc but for this cycle i didnt do that however i remember my form being off point in that i wasnt going past parallel on all reps.

So when i increase by 10% i know that my form wont be 100% on point. Do i continue with this? For info this 10% increase would have me squatting over my current body weight and i'm on a cut, 3x10KG cycle a week. Thanks

You will be constantly improving form. In fact on of the bigger issues is lifters starting way too light, and "getting by" with crap form, because the light weight doesnt reveal inefficient form. But form will never be 100%. It just needs to be acceptable and good enough to prevent injuries. So dont stop and change directions before full knee hinge(aka wide enough stance that it happens when you are a bit below parallel), dont flex/move your back, and dont cave in your knees when you get tired.


As for "should i bump if i have crap form on test day", well next cycle that will be your form. So the question is, did you get 10% stronger, or did you just increase the load 10% and compromised safety to get to it, or started quarter repping? If your grinders on test day still had acceptable form, you are still passing. If you are high squatting, rocking forward, and flexing your back to get the bar up, you are using too much weight for that rep range and should have stopped at rep 9-10 or something.

[GenerationZero]

So dont stop and change directions before full knee hinge(aka wide enough stance that it happens when you are a bit below parallel), dont flex/move your back, and dont cave in your knees when you get tired.

I've had the odd occasional knee caving in which i usually overcome by narrowing my stance and eventually i get back to the original position where i can execute the squat better but i googled "full knee hinge" and not sure what i'm looking out for/what to avoid or detect this has occurred?

[nightanole]

I've had the odd occasional knee caving in which i usually overcome by narrowing my stance and eventually i get back to the original position where i can execute the squat better but i googled "full knee hinge" and not sure what i'm looking out for/what to avoid or detect this has occurred?

If you are going down and they go "oh god its heavy" and stop short and go up, that is bad. You are changing directions when the knee is the weakest(mid hinge). If you go down and "sit" into the squat where the knees cant bend any further, now all the tension is in the fully stretched muscles, and the knee is the strongest.

Your toe direction and foot width will determine how low you sit into the squat. To get the most muscle mass you want to adjust so you are fully sitting when the hip goes just below the top of the knee, this is called breaking parallel. Adjusted the stance for ATG will not make more muscle. ATG squats are accessory work for Olympic lifts.


Even strong lifts points this out:



In the green checkmark, he can not bend his knees any more while maintaining that back angle, he is not trying to stop at that amount of knee bend, it just naturally happens.

[mpizzle421]

Hi there,

I'm on Cycle 2, week 2.

Quick reminder - Starting and Current weight
Squat 170 - 185
BP 150 - 165
Trap Row 85 - 95
OHP 85 - 95
SLDL 155 - 170

Squat - we talked a few weeks ago about squat depth after posting my video. I tried to correct this and aggravated some existing patellar tendonitis.
I did week 1 of cycle 2 last week and my knees have been hurting ever since. Truth be told I've had some rough weeks with my knees previously and I'm suffering for not dealing with it.

It's mostly fine when I'm not trying to Squat, so day to day life is fine but I skipped squat this week. I did some testing with box squats (barbell and goblet). ...Too little too late Still aggravated the knees pretty bad. For what it’s worth I’ve had two trainers look at my form and they aren’t seeing crazy. Knees are out, not caving in. The issues my body being too far forward (again not crazy but not perfect) and depth. Which based on your note above is problem because of the mid-hinge change in direction.

- I looked up some youtube videos on PT for the issue. I've been stretching the hamstrings, quads, hips. I don't know if what I found is worth anything so suggestions appreciated.

I can say the quad stretch (heel to ass) triggers that patellar pain if that helps. I can also say I'm terribly inflexible. Hamstrings are a joke. Watching me do the old hamstring stretch is pretty comical.

- I'm at a desk all day for work. try to get up and move around but I haven't done any kind of real regular stretching. I probably need this after years of neglect.
Any suggestions for now? Assume squats are out. Should I do anything to replace them?

OHP - Going from 85 to 95 on OHP was a jump. I find myself kind of hyperextending my back and form suffering. I realize that I was doing this to a much lesser degree with 85. As you pointed out, heavier weight is revealing existing weakness. Based on this, what would you suggest I do for next week?

Thank you 100x over for the help too. Very much appreciated.

[nightanole]

Hi there,

I'm on Cycle 2, week 2.

Quick reminder - Starting and Current weight
Squat 170 - 185
BP 150 - 165
Trap Row 85 - 95
OHP 85 - 95
SLDL 155 - 170

Squat - we talked a few weeks ago about squat depth after posting my video. I tried to correct this and aggravated some existing patellar tendonitis.
I did week 1 of cycle 2 last week and my knees have been hurting ever since. Truth be told I've had some rough weeks with my knees previously and I'm suffering for not dealing with it.

It's mostly fine when I'm not trying to Squat, so day to day life is fine but I skipped squat this week. I did some testing with box squats (barbell and goblet). ...Too little too late Still aggravated the knees pretty bad. For what it’s worth I’ve had two trainers look at my form and they aren’t seeing crazy. Knees are out, not caving in. The issues my body being too far forward (again not crazy but not perfect) and depth. Which based on your note above is problem because of the mid-hinge change in direction.

- I looked up some youtube videos on PT for the issue. I've been stretching the hamstrings, quads, hips. I don't know if what I found is worth anything so suggestions appreciated.

I can say the quad stretch (heel to ass) triggers that patellar pain if that helps. I can also say I'm terribly inflexible. Hamstrings are a joke. Watching me do the old hamstring stretch is pretty comical.

- I'm at a desk all day for work. try to get up and move around but I haven't done any kind of real regular stretching. I probably need this after years of neglect.
Any suggestions for now? Assume squats are out. Should I do anything to replace them?

OHP - Going from 85 to 95 on OHP was a jump. I find myself kind of hyperextending my back and form suffering. I realize that I was doing this to a much lesser degree with 85. As you pointed out, heavier weight is revealing existing weakness. Based on this, what would you suggest I do for next week?

Thank you 100x over for the help too. Very much appreciated.

For the OHP i would do the "rope trick". I normally do this using a lifting belt, but you can just use a thickish rope, or even an adjustable dress belt. So stand up, take a deep breath(use your diaphragm, no chest rise) and then tense your abs (like you are trying to crush that balloon of air you just swallowed). That my friend make your torso as wide and as strong as possible. Now take that string/belt and wrap it as loosely as possible around your belly button. Now whats going to happen is if you ever start swinging back, or sucking all your internal organs into your chest cavity like some people do when lifting over their head, the string/belt will fall around your ankles. And everyone will laugh at you for making your torso very thin at lockout when you torso is most stressed.


As for the squat thing, you are going to have to nail down the box squat. I dont know what to tell you. A proper box squat is the most knee friendly leg movement out there. It applies zero torque to the knee, its perfectly balanced. People with broken ankles and walking casts can do them just fine.


So again i would practice box squats at home. You can put your arms forward like superman, you can put your arms crossed and up like a genie. But you need to learn to sit in a chair without having your knees travel forward, and how to get out of said chair without having your knees travel forward. You dont have to start with a short stool that has you break parallel, you can start with a higher chair, and once you master it, work on down to a shorter chair. You may have to start off bouncing on and off of the arm rest to master this for all i know.

For some motivation, you are not "stiff". You can not lengthen or shorten a muscle without surgery. Your little brain knows how far it can relax a muscle before its way out side of its strength zone, and a major pull may happen. This zone is 10-15% degrees past your normal daily movements. This is why i have you doing SLDL with very light weights. You go down till your are in that 10-15 degree zone, and use all of your strength to come back up. Now your little brain is going "im stronger now at this just out of range, range, im going to allow the muscle to extend out further because it wont get hurt". And then you do thing again and again, each time yer brain allows the muscle to relax just a little bit more. Till one day the muscle is strong across its entire range of motion.

And with you being a desk jockey, Mark ripetoe loves you. In order to get his certification(the hardest in the industry) the team leaders bring in the most stiff, uncoordinated, imbalanced, souls who cant walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. And for the certification test, the pour slob of a trainer has to take these folk can get them to do 1 good form below parallel squat. They have i believe 4 hours to achieve this. Mark has never failed to get one of you to complete this task in the allotted time, but for the junior trainers, its a baptism in fire.

[mpizzle421]

- OK so you aren't seeing my OHP woes as a sign of lifting too much weight? If I fail week 3 (sets of 10) what should be my recourse?

- The patellar tendonitis makes the movement painful. Even with no weight. I did a little test with the trainer at my gym. He had me put my toes against a wall and squat down. My knees didn't travel forward enough to touch the wall but the squatting movement was still painful in my knees. If that's the case should I give it some time to recover and if so, what would you recommend doing? Just skip the squat or add something else? Or are you just saying to perform the Box Squat?

Thanks again!

[nightanole]

- OK so you aren't seeing my OHP woes as a sign of lifting too much weight? If I fail week 3 (sets of 10) what should be my recourse?

- The patellar tendonitis makes the movement painful. Even with no weight. I did a little test with the trainer at my gym. He had me put my toes against a wall and squat down. My knees didn't travel forward enough to touch the wall but the squatting movement was still painful in my knees. If that's the case should I give it some time to recover and if so, what would you recommend doing? Just skip the squat or add something else? Or are you just saying to perform the Box Squat?

Thanks again!

OHP is a form issue, once you learn the movement you wont do weird stuff.

If you want to stop squatting and practice unloaded box squats at home go for it. Just stick to doing SLDL at the gym till your knees heal up. But i wouldnt be doing "normal" squats till you can box squat pain free.

[mpizzle421]

OHP is a form issue, once you learn the movement you wont do weird stuff.

If you want to stop squatting and practice unloaded box squats at home go for it. Just stick to doing SLDL at the gym till your knees heal up. But i wouldnt be doing "normal" squats till you can box squat pain free.

I'm good with that. I was advised to start with goblet squat. Progression being goblet box squat -> goblet squat -> barbell box squat. Useless and just start with the barbell box squat?

[nightanole]

I'm good with that. I was advised to start with goblet squat. Progression being goblet box squat -> goblet squat -> barbell box squat. Useless and just start with the barbell box squat?

Goblet is great for 25-75lbs ish. Its easier to balance a 45lb goblet vs a 45lb bar bar as an example.

[JCSuth]

I'm looking to start this program as a total beginner. As someone who works a sedentary job and hasn't done any strength training in years, I have a question about testing the 10 rep maxes. I see in the FAQ on the post about how to determine these, in which it says to aim for weights in which you can do between 5-15 reps with. How will not having done any training affect this, such as having increased/prolonged muscle soreness? If I do start right in on the program after determining the 10 rep maxes - if I'm still very sore the day I'm supposed to do the week 1 medium day after doing the week 1 heavy workout and day off in between, should I space out the workouts more until I am not so sore? I just don't want to hurt myself going to hard into something when going from sedentary.

[nightanole]

I'm looking to start this program as a total beginner. As someone who works a sedentary job and hasn't done any strength training in years, I have a question about testing the 10 rep maxes. I see in the FAQ on the post about how to determine these, in which it says to aim for weights in which you can do between 5-15 reps with. How will not having done any training affect this, such as having increased/prolonged muscle soreness? If I do start right in on the program after determining the 10 rep maxes - if I'm still very sore the day I'm supposed to do the week 1 medium day after doing the week 1 heavy workout and day off in between, should I space out the workouts more until I am not so sore? I just don't want to hurt myself going to hard into something when going from sedentary.

OOOOOOOOh you are going to hate this program. Heavy day is so hard that you cant recover before medium day. Medium day is requires more effort than heavy day, because you are not recovered, and light day is "active recovery / deload" for your connective tissue since allpro does not have a deload protocol.


Feel free to start the program at your 15 or even 20 rep max. Then you can bump 20-25% at the end of the cycle(since now you have a month of practicing the lifts) vs the minimum 10%.

What really shoots people in the foot is they find their 10 rep absolute max in a vacuum before they blow a blood vessel, and try to run that first cycle. And then they start missing reps, and fail test day, so now they repeat the week next cycle. Or they adjust the weights back down mid cycle (allowed for first cycle).


As for the soreness, sorry you still have to work out. I know it sounds weird, but working out more frequently reduces DOMS more than just sitting on the couch waiting for the soreness to go away. To put it another way, if you do the program as written, you will be less sore the following monday vs just doing heavy, then medium 4 days later, and skipping light day.

[GenerationZero]

Did test/heavy day yesterday and passed squats and messed up on

OHP (i failed on the second set 12th rep, last week i was ok with 2 sets 11 reps)
Bent Rows (although i did all 24 reps i felt my form on the latter reps was awful where i was probably close to standing and not having enough bend when lifting)
Curls (Failed on doing 12 reps on each set i.e. did 10 then 9)

the rest i will increase by 10%.

Im lifting approx 50% of my body weight for OHP.
Im lifting approx 10-15% more than my Bench press on Bent Rows.
Im lifting the same as OHP for curls

Do you think i should swap these to the 4-8 range and increase the weight a little? Or just redo that cycle again. Cheers

[nightanole]

Did test/heavy day yesterday and passed squats and messed up on

OHP (i failed on the second set 12th rep, last week i was ok with 2 sets 11 reps)
Bent Rows (although i did all 24 reps i felt my form on the latter reps was awful where i was probably close to standing and not having enough bend when lifting)
Curls (Failed on doing 12 reps on each set i.e. did 10 then 9)

the rest i will increase by 10%.

Im lifting approx 50% of my body weight for OHP.
Im lifting approx 10-15% more than my Bench press on Bent Rows.
Im lifting the same as OHP for curls

Do you think i should swap these to the 4-8 range and increase the weight a little? Or just redo that cycle again. Cheers

Row just needs to be +- 20 percent of the bench.

OHP should be 60-75 percent of bench.

Only bench/squat/row can be swapped to 4-8 sets of 3.

Since OHP was a maybe, on light day do 1 set of 10 with the 110% weight. If you get 10 reps you are gold, else repeat with same weight. Even if you repeat with same weight, you increased bench, so most of the muscles will have a higher volume next cycle.

[GenerationZero]

Row just needs to be +- 20 percent of the bench.

OHP should be 60-75 percent of bench.

Only bench/squat/row can be swapped to 4-8 sets of 3.

Since OHP was a maybe, on light day do 1 set of 10 with the 110% weight. If you get 10 reps you are gold, else repeat with same weight. Even if you repeat with same weight, you increased bench, so most of the muscles will have a higher volume next cycle.

Great, just to recap,

My current weight is around 80KG

Bench (i dont know what you call this program, buts it where i lift heavy weight and progress is slow/determined by myself).
At present I do 3 sets (added 3rd set a few weeks back) and do 5,4,3 reps each workout (by light day i may miss a rep or 2). I monitor this program weekly but will add another set to see if i can increase reps (maybe lifting 65KG).

So this Friday (light day), I will bump 110% (so if i do 40KG I'll do 45KG). I do believe i will pass 1 set at 10 reps as i've done much heavier when i was doing 5 rep programs a year ago (but then hurt my shoulder).

If i do then on Monday i could do the same weight for 4 - 8 reps for OHP?

I will swap to 4-8 for rows as i understand it. Thanks again

[nightanole]

Great, just to recap,

My current weight is around 80KG

Bench (i dont know what you call this program, buts it where i lift heavy weight and progress is slow/determined by myself).
At present I do 3 sets (added 3rd set a few weeks back) and do 5,4,3 reps each workout (by light day i may miss a rep or 2). I monitor this program weekly but will add another set to see if i can increase reps (maybe lifting 65KG).

So this Friday (light day), I will bump 110% (so if i do 40KG I'll do 45KG). I do believe i will pass 1 set at 10 reps as i've done much heavier when i was doing 5 rep programs a year ago (but then hurt my shoulder).

If i do then on Monday i could do the same weight for 4 - 8 reps for OHP?

I will swap to 4-8 for rows as i understand it. Thanks again

I call it "auto regulated". But you shouldnt be doing it for more than 3 sets. Remember on that variant the goal is to get 24 reps over 2-3 sets. So that could end up being 14/10 or 10/8/6. And unless you are making great progress, you should be doing a deload week every 6-8 week where you just do 2-3 sets of 50 percent of your working weight.

And OHP is alway 8-12, you do not go heavy on OHP.

[GenerationZero]

I call it "auto regulated". But you shouldnt be doing it for more than 3 sets. Remember on that variant the goal is to get 24 reps over 2-3 sets. So that could end up being 14/10 or 10/8/6. And unless you are making great progress, you should be doing a deload week every 6-8 week where you just do 2-3 sets of 50 percent of your working weight.

And OHP is alway 8-12, you do not go heavy on OHP.

Right, I missed that point when you mentioned earlier.

If I pass OHP this Friday, increase it by 10% for next week but fail on 9 reps on my second set, do I just continue as normal and make no further adjustments?

Finally on curls, am I just repeating the cycle? I got the impression I can't do low 4-8 reps so just want to double check on that.

[nightanole]

Right, I missed that point when you mentioned earlier.

If I pass OHP this Friday, increase it by 10% for next week but fail on 9 reps on my second set, do I just continue as normal and make no further adjustments?

Finally on curls, am I just repeating the cycle? I got the impression I can't do low 4-8 reps so just want to double check on that.

The "false negative" test for OHP on friday is 1 set of 10, not two. So yes if you get 10 reps at 110%, you can use that working weight next cycle, else if you get 9 repeat with this cycles weight.

Correct curls are always 8-12, you cant go HEAVY. Hell if you wanted to you could drop the weight 25% and even do 16-24 and increase 2 reps a week if you wanted to, next cycle. Curls are a wild card, and you can pretty much do what you want as long as it doesnt cause the row to stall. And yes if you failed you repeat with the same weights next cycle.

[brunogouveia58]

I yesterday failed in the 10 rep on the bench press how do I repeat again?

[nightanole]

I yesterday failed in the 10 rep on the bench press how do I repeat again?

You try for 11 reps next week, and 12 reps the following week. Its OK to fail reps, but it is a process indicator, but no alterations are needed. But under eating to the point that you fail on 10 rep week, is a bad move. Lets hope you just had an off day. Even if you are going to fail test day, you should not be failing 10 rep week.

[JustinP72]

Row just needs to be +- 20 percent of the bench.

OHP should be 60-75 percent of bench.

Only bench/squat/row can be swapped to 4-8 sets of 3.

Since OHP was a maybe, on light day do 1 set of 10 with the 110% weight. If you get 10 reps you are gold, else repeat with same weight. Even if you repeat with same weight, you increased bench, so most of the muscles will have a higher volume next cycle.

This leads perfectly into a question I've been mulling regarding lift ratios and muscle balance.

I'm curious as to which weight amount per lift is proper in comparison to the others.

It's my understanding squat should be 150% of bench, so if we use bench as a set point...

Squat: 150%
Bench: 100%
Row: 80%
OHP: 60%
Deadlift: 175%
Standing Row: 65%

Is this roughly correct?

[nightanole]

This leads perfectly into a question I've been mulling regarding lift ratios and muscle balance.

I'm curious as to which weight amount per lift is proper in comparison to the others.

It's my understanding squat should be 150% of bench, so if we use bench as a set point...

Squat: 150%
Bench: 100%
Row: 80%
OHP: 60%
Deadlift: 175%
Standing Row: 65%

Is this roughly correct?

These are the ratios

SLDL should be less than squat

Row should be +-20 percent of bench(you can be a rock/utility pole climber nd row 220 and only bench 190, and still be inspec)
bench should be lower than squat
OHP should be 60-75 percent of bench

There is not really a ratio between body parts, only angles/directions of same muscle groups. There is not a proper ratio between bench/dead/squat for example. Infact the better you get, the closer your deadlift and squat will be. You can look at pro lifters numbers to verify this. There is no ratios because of body morphology. I think the 140lb class deadlift champion, can deadlift 600lbs for rep for days, but he udderly sucks in the bench, he just has stubby legs and orangutan arms.



If you want to have some more fun, here is a better chart for body weight numbers vs the generic 1/2/3/4 plate metrics.

https://muscleandbrawn.com/strong-st...tural-lifters/

[brunogouveia58]

You try for 11 reps next week, and 12 reps the following week. Its OK to fail reps, but it is a process indicator, but no alterations are needed. But under eating to the point that you fail on 10 rep week, is a bad move. Lets hope you just had an off day. Even if you are going to fail test day, you should not be failing 10 rep week.

42/5000
i'm cutting it must be so

[Rudiger1991]

Fierce 5 recommends doing this while cutting. I have been doing Fierce 5 for a while and I stalled really hard. I want to give this slower progression scheme a try while cutting but can I run this program in the 4-8 rep range (for squats, bp, rows, ohp)? I am used to Fierce 5 and honestly I hate 8+ reps sets. Also my primary goal is strength increase(+ weight loss)

So can I do like this?(squat,bp,rows,ohp)
Week 1 .. 4 sets 4 reps
Week2 .. 4 sets 5 reps
Week 3 4 sets 6 reps
Week 4 4 sets 7 reps
Week 5.. 4 sets 8 reps
If successful.. increase weight by 10%
If not .. repeat

[nightanole]

Fierce 5 recommends doing this while cutting. I have been doing Fierce 5 for a while and I stalled really hard. I want to give this slower progression scheme a try while cutting but can I run this program in the 4-8 rep range (for squats, bp, rows, ohp)? I am used to Fierce 5 and honestly I hate 8+ reps sets. Also my primary goal is strength increase(+ weight loss)

So can I do like this?(squat,bp,rows,ohp)
Week 1 .. 4 sets 4 reps
Week2 .. 4 sets 5 reps
Week 3 4 sets 6 reps
Week 4 4 sets 7 reps
Week 5.. 4 sets 8 reps
If successful.. increase weight by 10%
If not .. repeat

"novice" is 4-8 reps 3 sets (so still 24 reps total) for bench/row/squat, the rest are still 8-12.

[nightanole]

Fierce 5 recommends doing this while cutting. I have been doing Fierce 5 for a while and I stalled really hard. I want to give this slower progression scheme a try while cutting but can I run this program in the 4-8 rep range (for squats, bp, rows, ohp)? I am used to Fierce 5 and honestly I hate 8+ reps sets. Also my primary goal is strength increase(+ weight loss)

So can I do like this?(squat,bp,rows,ohp)
Week 1 .. 4 sets 4 reps
Week2 .. 4 sets 5 reps
Week 3 4 sets 6 reps
Week 4 4 sets 7 reps
Week 5.. 4 sets 8 reps
If successful.. increase weight by 10%
If not .. repeat

"novice" is 4-8 reps 3 sets (so still 24 reps total) for bench/row/squat, the rest are still 8-12. if you want to go heavy on accessories, god speed to your connective tissue, since allpro does not have a deload protocol

[Rudiger1991]

"novice" is 4-8 reps 3 sets (so still 24 reps total) for bench/row/squat, the rest are still 8-12. if you want to go heavy on accessories, god speed to your connective tissue, since allpro does not have a deload protocol

3 sets without the warm up?

[nightanole]

3 sets without the warm up?

warmup
warmup
workset
workset
workset

For "the big 3" which on allpro is squat/bench/row

[Rudiger1991]

warmup
warmup
workset
workset
workset

For "the big 3" which on allpro is squat/bench/row

Nice.

I may give it a try.

Should I expect any differences between this "novice" routine and the beginner one?

[27MinuteMiracle]

Night,

What percentage of my heavy lift day can I do every day? (well, like, 5x/wk.)

Background:
I was on All Pro self-regulated, then did a de-load.

Since then, I added C25K.
I extended the de-load for this time period and REALLY love it.

HOWEVER, on my off days from weights, my body sometimes craves another workout.

I should return to All Pro self-regulated in ~2 months.

Thanks

[nightanole]

Nice.

I may give it a try.

Should I expect any differences between this "novice" routine and the beginner one?

Nope, just now that you can really stress yourself, you need a bit more rest between sets. You will not be going much heavier, if at all, vs the 8-12.