AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[GenerationZero]

1-3) The pattern doesnt work unless you go up or down 10%. 2.5-5% is less than the accuracy of the plates, and will provide too long of a deload. The only way to go up or down less than 10% is run auto regulated, and even then its not recommended because there is little to no volume reduction.

So even on 20 reps its 10% minimum increase to make any progress? When i checked my logs i think my lightest day at 20 reps shows i've lifted more weight compared to 8-12 reps (if this causes some mild concern i will double check). Cheers

[nightanole]

So even on 20 reps its 10% minimum increase to make any progress? When i checked my logs i think my lightest day at 20 reps shows i've lifted more weight compared to 8-12 reps (if this causes some mild concern i will double check). Cheers

Its not the progress that is the problem.

lets say you only bumped 10%:

week 1 is a 2.5-5% deload
week 2 is as hard as test week of the previous cycle
week 3 is 3.33% harder than test week of the previous cycle
week 4 is 6.66% harder than test week of the previous cycle
week 5 is 10% harder than test week of the previous cycle

Now re roll that for 5% bump.

week 1 is a 7.5% deload
week 2 is 3.33% deload
week 3 is is as hard as test week of the previous cycle
week 4 is 3.33% harder than test week of the previous cycle
week 5 is 6.66% harder than test week of the previous cycle

So you would literally be spending 4 weeks at or less than a session toughness that you already know you could do.

2.5% is even worse, because it would be a 3-4 week deload with only test day being 3.33% harder. And how would you increase strength when you just spent 3-4 weeks with an easier session than the previous cycles test week?

[GenerationZero]

Its not the progress that is the problem.

lets say you only bumped 10%:

week 1 is a 2.5-5% deload
week 2 is as hard as test week of the previous cycle
week 3 is 3.33% harder than test week of the previous cycle
week 4 is 6.66% harder than test week of the previous cycle
week 5 is 10% harder than test week of the previous cycle

Now re roll that for 5% bump.

week 1 is a 7.5% deload
week 2 is 3.33% deload
week 3 is is as hard as test week of the previous cycle
week 4 is 3.33% harder than test week of the previous cycle
week 5 is 6.66% harder than test week of the previous cycle

So you would literally be spending 4 weeks at or less than a session toughness that you already know you could do.

2.5% is even worse, because it would be a 3-4 week deload with only test day being 3.33% harder. And how would you increase strength when you just spent 3-4 weeks with an easier session than the previous cycles test week?

Ah i see that makes sense. So i will have to repeat the cycle for arms until i can increase by 10%? I am taking about 160gms carbs, 50-60gms fats and maybe around 80gms protein just in case this makes any difference

[nightanole]

Ah i see that makes sense. So i will have to repeat the cycle for arms until i can increase by 10%? I am taking about 160gms carbs, 50-60gms fats and maybe around 80gms protein just in case this makes any difference

Yes. If you wanted to you could add an arm accessory for additional volume, just put the accessory at the end of the workout. You could just do 1-2 sets of ezbar curls that are 3 reps till failure (rpe 7.5)

[GenerationZero]

Yes. If you wanted to you could add an arm accessory for additional volume, just put the accessory at the end of the workout. You could just do 1-2 sets of ezbar curls that are 3 reps till failure (rpe 7.5)

If I recall correctly this would mean doing 110% of my heavy day on light day. So if I'm lifting 100kg on Monday then on Friday after completing my light arm workout I'd do 2x3 reps at 110kg?

Just one other thing, I noticed when I get into the last 2 weeks of the cycle I'm pretty sore and find my sleep pattern isn't good as good. I read this could be to under recovery. Any thoughts on this?

[nightanole]

If I recall correctly this would mean doing 110% of my heavy day on light day. So if I'm lifting 100kg on Monday then on Friday after completing my light arm workout I'd do 2x3 reps at 110kg?

Just one other thing, I noticed when I get into the last 2 weeks of the cycle I'm pretty sore and find my sleep pattern isn't good as good. I read this could be to under recovery. Any thoughts on this?

That pattern should work, since you would be doing 3 reps of your 6-7 rep max.


Altered sleep pattern is normally caused by cns fatigue. You would have to do some research on how to calm that down. I hear a dose of sugar,potassium, and sodium, can help, so that could be as simple 24oz gatorade directly after to workout to calm your cns down(so 10 bucks for the 7 gallon powder concentrate). Or 10-20min of light cardio after the workout etc. I know i cant do deadlifts after 7pm if i want to get to bed by 9:30.

[GenerationZero]

So I did a little research and noticed my potassium is low it's high on training days as I have a banana and even then it's low in comparison to the 3500mg listed on fitnesspal.

So I could eat a banana everyday, have honey instead of sugar rather than Gatorade? I still have some BCAA and creatine on training days as I still haven't finished off my existing batch from a year ago. Does this sound ok?

[nightanole]

So I did a little research and noticed my potassium is low it's high on training days as I have a banana and even then it's low in comparison to the 3500mg listed on fitnesspal.

So I could eat a banana everyday, have honey instead of sugar rather than Gatorade? I still have some BCAA and creatine on training days as I still haven't finished off my existing batch from a year ago. Does this sound ok?

Experiment, you should know within 7 days if it works. But yea a banana/honey would be better than Gatorade. You might even look up baked potatoes.

[beeguy]

In 2-3 days I'm getting weights. I am able to do all exercises that don't include bench, what can I substitute bench press with?
What effects would this Program have if I stay in a calorie deficit if it's even possible?

I decided I'm not going to workout until my weights come so I can test my lifting weights fully recovered.
I suppose this program is good for me, I've been working out for about 2 and a half years but first year was just bodyweight and last year and a half I've been working out with Dumbbells only. Didn't watch my Diet most of the time...

[nightanole]

In 2-3 days I'm getting weights. I am able to do all exercises that don't include bench, what can I substitute bench press with?
What effects would this Program have if I stay in a calorie deficit if it's even possible?

I decided I'm not going to workout until my weights come so I can test my lifting weights fully recovered.
I suppose this program is good for me, I've been working out for about 2 and a half years but first year was just bodyweight and last year and a half I've been working out with Dumbbells only. Didn't watch my Diet most of the time...

Bench can be replaced with the floor press. The dead stop more or less mitigates the reduced rom.

Most people start the program on deficit, since goal #1 is get to 13% bf as quickly as possible while learning the lifts and adapting to the program. If you are over 20% then you will be "bulking" off your spare tire till you are in the teens of body fat anyway.

[beeguy]

Bench can be replaced with the floor press. The dead stop more or less mitigates the reduced rom.

Most people start the program on deficit, since goal #1 is get to 13% bf as quickly as possible while learning the lifts and adapting to the program. If you are over 20% then you will be "bulking" off your spare tire till you are in the teens of body fat anyway.

Today the weights arrived and I did as said to find my 10 rep max, I was very bad at estimating but I hope the calculator is accurate. Here are the numbers.

My estimation

Squats 19kg-35
Floor Presses 19kg-35
Bent-Over Rows 19kg-40
Overhead Barbell Presses 19kg-20
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 32kg-13
Barbell Curls 19kg-15
Calf Raises 32kg- 26

Calculator 10 RM

Squats 30kg - 10reps
Floor Presses 30kg - 10reps
Bent-Over Rows 32.5kg- 10
Overhead Barbell Presses 23kg - 10reps
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 33.5kg - 10reps
Barbell Curls 21kg - 10reps
Calf Raises 44kg - 10reps

Is squat supposed to be Back Squat?

[GenerationZero]

I managed to get a rudimentary pulley system and wonder if you can advise what exercises i could swap to use the pulley? Cheers

[nightanole]

I managed to get a rudimentary pulley system and wonder if you can advise what exercises i could swap to use the pulley? Cheers

Typically that would be single joint accessories,since it would keep a more constant tension over the entire rom. So skull crusher and curl type movements.

[nightanole]

Today the weights arrived and I did as said to find my 10 rep max, I was very bad at estimating but I hope the calculator is accurate. Here are the numbers.

My estimation

Squats 19kg-35
Floor Presses 19kg-35
Bent-Over Rows 19kg-40
Overhead Barbell Presses 19kg-20
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 32kg-13
Barbell Curls 19kg-15
Calf Raises 32kg- 26

Calculator 10 RM

Squats 30kg - 10reps
Floor Presses 30kg - 10reps
Bent-Over Rows 32.5kg- 10
Overhead Barbell Presses 23kg - 10reps
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 33.5kg - 10reps
Barbell Curls 21kg - 10reps
Calf Raises 44kg - 10reps

Is squat supposed to be Back Squat?

Calcs suck above about 8 reps. So if you popped 35 reps in to a get a 10 rep max, you will be disappointed.

Squat should be a back squat, high bar preferred.

[GenerationZero]

Typically that would be single joint accessories,since it would keep a more constant tension over the entire rom. So skull crusher and curl type movements.

So i cant really substitute any of the current exercises if i understood you correctly? I managed to get it real cheap so decided to go for it in case i ever need it for future.

[nightanole]

So i cant really substitute any of the current exercises if i understood you correctly? I managed to get it real cheap so decided to go for it in case i ever need it for future.

Cant sub anything really, but it does open up your options compared to other people for accessory work, such as pull downs etc.

[GenerationZero]

Cant sub anything really, but it does open up your options compared to other people for accessory work, such as pull downs etc.

So are there any accessory exercise I could add? I already do cycling on my rest days 3x a week so don't want to hurt my recovery. Thanks

[nightanole]

So are there any accessory exercise I could add? I already do cycling on my rest days 3x a week so don't want to hurt my recovery. Thanks

Face pulls would work, standing,sitting, or laying down, depending on your pully system. You can also do some shoulder prehab, they used to be called innies and outies, im sure you could adapt them to the pulley as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmYnoC0G9EQ

you can also find videos of them doing over head prehab using the same movements.

[beeguy]

Today I did my first workout of the first week, even though yesterday was my 10RM test day.

I didn't feel too "bad"(in a good way) after workout, I don't feel like I'm going to be sore or anything tommorow, I barely feel anything from squats that I did. What does this mean? Should I just keep going as the program says or increase weight for my 2nd workout? I saw that a guy asked question similar to mine and response was to keep going and increase weight only on 2nd cycle. Is this what should I do too?

Next, I feel like I have some injury from yesterday, I have that slight pain in shoulders when I move them in some specific ways, not like it hurts whatever I do but it could be because I never did these exercises before, still working on my form but I mostly got it.

Are there any recommended Ab & HIIT workouts you guys would recommend me to do on rest days?

[nightanole]

Today I did my first workout of the first week, even though yesterday was my 10RM test day.

I didn't feel too "bad"(in a good way) after workout, I don't feel like I'm going to be sore or anything tommorow, I barely feel anything from squats that I did. What does this mean? Should I just keep going as the program says or increase weight for my 2nd workout? I saw that a guy asked question similar to mine and response was to keep going and increase weight only on 2nd cycle. Is this what should I do too?

Next, I feel like I have some injury from yesterday, I have that slight pain in shoulders when I move them in some specific ways, not like it hurts whatever I do but it could be because I never did these exercises before, still working on my form but I mostly got it.

Are there any recommended Ab & HIIT workouts you guys would recommend me to do on rest days?

This a fatigue based program, you should feel like superman the first week of every cycle, and by 10 rep week realize this is starting to kick my ass.

Odds are the shoulder is a form issue, or a seldom used stabilizer that got over worked. It happens all the time with the center back on chinups as an example. This is why you should start the first cycle light, so you get your form down and body adapted.

Hiit is not recommended on this program, as it robs recovery. And you will need peak recovery since this is a very high volume and fatigued based system.

The recommended cardio is around 3x10k jogs that take 45min or more. Low intensity steady state. We are going for distance not time. But cardio can be "anything" that you can do for 45min without resting, even if you break it up into 20-30min sessions during the week, or just do a half marathon on the weekend.

And for abs:

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1553220381

[beeguy]

Another question, can I do squats without the squat rack? I managed to do it today but when I increase weight I think I won't be able to lift and press the weights behind my head to get to the form.
Also, I feel pain in the back of my neck, in the bones I think of the spine, I know that's from the bar when I do squats but is there any way to prevent this? I don't know how to hold the bar properly, I set it on neck muscles and shoulders sometimes but I guess I didn't do it good.

[nightanole]

Another question, can I do squats without the squat rack? I managed to do it today but when I increase weight I think I won't be able to lift and press the weights behind my head to get to the form.
Also, I feel pain in the back of my neck, in the bones I think of the spine, I know that's from the bar when I do squats but is there any way to prevent this? I don't know how to hold the bar properly, I set it on neck muscles and shoulders sometimes but I guess I didn't do it good.

You need to watch some squat videos an learn how to plate it in the "meat pocket" and not resting on your spine/shoulder blades.

As for squatting without a rack, that is easy, its called the zercher squat. However just like the back squat, it will take some practice to learn how to do it pain free with just a thick sweat shirt. A lot of youtubers do it wrong(or look like they are doing it wrong) when they are putting most of the weight in the elbow pit and making the bar a prybar with its soul goal of prying apart your elbow joint...

[GenerationZero]

Losing a little motivation with the bench press. Doing 12-20 reps and did 12 reps on 14 week but failed on it today (I know I can do them as I did it on my last cycle) even though I knocked the weight down by 2%.

Should I just continue as is or go back to 8-12 reps although I get the assumption I'm jumping around and not probably not being patient enough... In addition I'm not losing any weight but on some days I may look more cut. I can't tell if I'm missing something on my diet as I've been tracking everything but could it be that if I continue to lift and do everything as I'm doing now it would all catch up? Any thoughts?

[nightanole]

Losing a little motivation with the bench press. Doing 12-20 reps and did 12 reps on 14 week but failed on it today (I know I can do them as I did it on my last cycle) even though I knocked the weight down by 2%.

Should I just continue as is or go back to 8-12 reps although I get the assumption I'm jumping around and not probably not being patient enough... In addition I'm not losing any weight but on some days I may look more cut. I can't tell if I'm missing something on my diet as I've been tracking everything but could it be that if I continue to lift and do everything as I'm doing now it would all catch up? Any thoughts?

As stated many times, you need to be going up or down at least 1kg per cycle. You can not recomp on allpro at all, and as a natty most cant recomp on any program.

Your choices are to drop body weight at a pace where you can sustain working weight with a reduced volume (or progression if a n00b), or increase body weight (and body fat as its impossible to not gain fat natty) and increase working weight (or drastically increase volume to take advantage of increased recovery from the surplus, which will increase working weight over time).

I have told you, you need to figure out a six month plan and stick to it. I dont care what your plan is, since you seem to only use good plans to begin with. Once you are out of the n00b phase you will only be looking to increase your bench 33% over the next 18 months, and thats if you are gods gift to lifting, most will only increase 20-25%.

REALLY good benchers will go from a 1 plate bench to a 2 plate bench in 6 months, but it might be 18 more months before they hit 250lbs, and 5 years before they hit 315. If someone is of normal weight, and is legit struggling with 45-75lbs after six weeks, they are not going to hit 215 in a year. They may have a 24" rom, while the 215 guy has an 11" rom.


So the question you have to ask yourself is what pattern do you want to use to add 25-50lbs to your bench over the next 18 months? If your working weight is 100lbs, and you fail 2 months in a row and then pass at the 3rd month, that is 3.3lbs a month, that is faster than 50lbs in 18 months.

[GenerationZero]

Your choices are to drop body weight at a pace where you can sustain working weight with a reduced volume (or progression if a n00b), or increase body weight (and body fat as its impossible to not gain fat natty) and increase working weight (or drastically increase volume to take advantage of increased recovery from the surplus, which will increase working weight over time).

I have told you, you need to figure out a six month plan and stick to it. I dont care what your plan is, since you seem to only use good plans to begin with. Once you are out of the n00b phase you will only be looking to increase your bench 33% over the next 18 months, and thats if you are gods gift to lifting, most will only increase 20-25%.

So the question you have to ask yourself is what pattern do you want to use to add 25-50lbs to your bench over the next 18 months? If your working weight is 100lbs, and you fail 2 months in a row and then pass at the 3rd month, that is 3.3lbs a month, that is faster than 50lbs in 18 months.

Ok in that case it makes more sense. 6-18 months is a good timeframe. I think 12-20 may be an overkill in that case? Would it make sense going back to 8-12 if I set 18 months as a goal? Or continue with 12-20 and keep volume high? Cheers

[nightanole]

Ok in that case it makes more sense. 6-18 months is a good timeframe. I think 12-20 may be an overkill in that case? Would it make sense going back to 8-12 if I set 18 months as a goal? Or continue with 12-20 and keep volume high? Cheers

3-5, 8-12, 12-20, it really doesnt matter. You want to feel fatigued at the end of the set, not "gassed" or out of breath. Its up to the lifter. Some people can not handle high rep sets at all, but flourish using 3x3 at 90% of 1rm. For other 3x3 at 90% will lead them to snap city in a few months because their joints and connective tissue cant handle it.

So i guess it would be down to how you feel after the workout. Did you feel better doing 8-12 or 12-20. I know i do great at 3-5 reps(80-90%), suck around 9-10 reps(65-70%), and do great around 15+ reps(55-60%).

[GenerationZero]

3-5, 8-12, 12-20, it really doesnt matter. You want to feel fatigued at the end of the set, not "gassed" or out of breath. Its up to the lifter. Some people can not handle high rep sets at all, but flourish using 3x3 at 90% of 1rm. For other 3x3 at 90% will lead them to snap city in a few months because their joints and connective tissue cant handle it.

So i guess it would be down to how you feel after the workout. Did you feel better doing 8-12 or 12-20. I know i do great at 3-5 reps(80-90%), suck around 9-10 reps(65-70%), and do great around 15+ reps(55-60%).

8-12 I felt exhausted after test week.i also noticed more pump. I was sore but overcame it in a day or so.

12-20 I enjoy it but I feel recovery is slow. I feel more sore regardless of the week.

So I think 8-12 as of next week? At 18 months and repeating cycles as and when required would help me stay on track and keep in focus.

[nightanole]

8-12 I felt exhausted after test week.i also noticed more pump. I was sore but overcame it in a day or so.

12-20 I enjoy it but I feel recovery is slow. I feel more sore regardless of the week.

So I think 8-12 as of next week? At 18 months and repeating cycles as and when required would help me stay on track and keep in focus.

Meh why not try novice of 4-8 with 3 sets. That will give you an extra 90 seconds of rest, but still require the same amount of volume as 8-12, and you might even be able to work with a wee heavier weight, as long as it doesnt cause slower rep speed.

[GenerationZero]

Meh why not try novice of 4-8 with 3 sets. That will give you an extra 90 seconds of rest, but still require the same amount of volume as 8-12, and you might even be able to work with a wee heavier weight, as long as it doesnt cause slower rep speed.

Yea sure, can give it a go. Does this run exactly the same way as allPro except 3 sets and 4-8 reps? Or can you give me a link for this program so I can read up on it? Did Google it but it takes me to a similar program but some A/B split or something.

[nightanole]

Yea sure, can give it a go. Does this run exactly the same way as allPro except 3 sets and 4-8 reps? Or can you give me a link for this program so I can read up on it? Did Google it but it takes me to a similar program but some A/B split or something.

This is "novice". Which is standard allpro, with up to the first 3 lifts converted to 3 sets of 4-8 reps, and the same 90 seconds or less rest. So test day is still 24 reps. Back in the day people thought they could work with their 6 rep max instead of their 10 rep max, they learned pretty quickly that wasnt the case. But it does allow for a bit deeper deload, and a faster ramp up, and for those getting gassed towards the end of the program it allows them to keep their bar speed up.