AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[nightanole]

Is it possible to get resting abs and obliques after 5 cycles of AllPro, if I do abs and obliques 3x a week at the end of each session, as well as lean bulking?

Its not possible to "look good" and get resting abs, even after a year on any program. To get resting abs requires getting down to about 10%.

Let take joe average who is a college student that never lifted in his life and was an average eater.

5 10, 175lbs, bmi of 25, 20% bf. Lean mass of 140lbs

Now lets say he did everything perfect, gained 15lbs of muscle, and got down to 13% bf, in a year
He is now 180lbs 13% with a lean mass of 157lbs.

to get to relaxed abs he needs to get to 10%. That will require about a 10 pound cut over a min of 2-3 months(cant cut quick in the lower teens), with 3 of those pounds being muscle. He is now 170lbs @ 10% with a BMI of 24.4.

This is the best case scenario.


You can roll the numbers for you, but unless you are bmi 20, you will not be gaining more than 1 bmi point of muscle on allpro in 5 cycles, and even under the best odds, you will not be gaining more than 1.5 bmi points of muscle in a year on any program. "transformations" in 6 months only happen if either you are bmi 18-20 and can gain 2x the muscle because you under ate, or bmi 30+, which case you already have the muscle, and just need to shed fat and maintain muscle mass.

[streeoverlord]

Thanks nightanole for the effort you put into the routine and for continuing to reply to this thread. While I'm not a complete foreigner to the gym, I've been pretty inconsistent and I'm still a beginner by the definition in the OP. Because of my current circumstances, I'm living at home and don't have reliable access to a car. I do have a home gym, but it's got pretty much all the equipment I'd need *except* for a barbell rack. Meaning I have barbell+weights, adjustable dumbbells (up to 52.5 lbs each), bench, EZ curl bar, power tower, even a multi-function machine (with levers and cables).

Basically, the only exercises I can't do from the original routine are barbell squats and barbell bench presses. I assume the barbell bench press can be replaced pretty simply with dumbbells, but I'm more concerned with how to replace the barbell squat. I've already maxed out doing dumbbell squats with 52.5 lbs in each hand for reps. Should I try substituting with split squats instead? The downside to that would be that form might not be exactly identical for left and right legs. Another option is the front squat, but that is limited by my ability to power clean. What would be the best alternative?

tl;dr: I have all necessary equipment except for a barbell rack, how do I substitute the barbell squat and bench press?

[nightanole]

Thanks nightanole for the effort you put into the routine and for continuing to reply to this thread. While I'm not a complete foreigner to the gym, I've been pretty inconsistent and I'm still a beginner by the definition in the OP. Because of my current circumstances, I'm living at home and don't have reliable access to a car. I do have a home gym, but it's got pretty much all the equipment I'd need *except* for a barbell rack. Meaning I have barbell+weights, adjustable dumbbells (up to 52.5 lbs each), bench, EZ curl bar, power tower, even a multi-function machine (with levers and cables).

Basically, the only exercises I can't do from the original routine are barbell squats and barbell bench presses. I assume the barbell bench press can be replaced pretty simply with dumbbells, but I'm more concerned with how to replace the barbell squat. I've already maxed out doing dumbbell squats with 52.5 lbs in each hand for reps. Should I try substituting with split squats instead? The downside to that would be that form might not be exactly identical for left and right legs. Another option is the front squat, but that is limited by my ability to power clean. What would be the best alternative?

tl;dr: I have all necessary equipment except for a barbell rack, how do I substitute the barbell squat and bench press?

Floor press and zercher squats (might need a towel or thick hoodie)

[bjw11180]

Ending numbers are based on body weight you should end with , bmi 24. You can game the system and achieve 10 reps of 1.5x bmi 24 squats, at a bmi of 27, but then you have a lot of cutting to do. Gods gift to lifting may be able to achieve a bmi of 25 while having semi relaxed abs in less than a year of lifting, but for most mere mortals its going to take bmi 24. That isnt to say you cant get to bmi 25 by 18-24 months.


Warmup for something like that will be just the bare bar for 10 reps, and then 1 set of 10 with something that is 1/2-2/3 your heavy day working weight, and you can use that weight for every workout. You do not have to calculate your brain out for medium and light day, and to be honest you may even be fine using that warmup weight for a few cycles. Its not critical, its not there to prevent injury, its a few sub maximal sets to prime your cns, because odds are that was the first time of the day you did that range of movement with any amount of weight. As a n00b your brain forgets how to squat very quickly because you have not done it much.

What if you're someone who feels like he'll never get to BMI 24 or 25? If I "game the system" and achieve the strength benchmarks for BMI 24, but can only get (down) to, say, BMI 27 (translates to a weight I haven't seen since my early teens), what would be the next step?

[Vyprath]

Its not possible to "look good" and get resting abs, even after a year on any program. To get resting abs requires getting down to about 10%.

Let take joe average who is a college student that never lifted in his life and was an average eater.

5 10, 175lbs, bmi of 25, 20% bf. Lean mass of 140lbs

Now lets say he did everything perfect, gained 15lbs of muscle, and got down to 13% bf, in a year
He is now 180lbs 13% with a lean mass of 157lbs.

to get to relaxed abs he needs to get to 10%. That will require about a 10 pound cut over a min of 2-3 months(cant cut quick in the lower teens), with 3 of those pounds being muscle. He is now 170lbs @ 10% with a BMI of 24.4.

This is the best case scenario.


You can roll the numbers for you, but unless you are bmi 20, you will not be gaining more than 1 bmi point of muscle on allpro in 5 cycles, and even under the best odds, you will not be gaining more than 1.5 bmi points of muscle in a year on any program. "transformations" in 6 months only happen if either you are bmi 18-20 and can gain 2x the muscle because you under ate, or bmi 30+, which case you already have the muscle, and just need to shed fat and maintain muscle mass.

I’m currently bmi 20, the thing is I think my abs are rather under developed so I need to grow the ab muscles to be able to see them, I would say I am close to 10% body fat, just with little muscle.

[nightanole]

What if you're someone who feels like he'll never get to BMI 24 or 25? If I "game the system" and achieve the strength benchmarks for BMI 24, but can only get (down) to, say, BMI 27 (translates to a weight I haven't seen since my early teens), what would be the next step?

That is up to you. Plenty of starting strength foot ball players end with a 200lb body weight and 2x bw for 1-2 reps deadlift, with a body fat level of 18-22%. For their sport getting down to 13% has no benefits in performance.

So if you want to achieve the allpro graduation requirements, but stay at 16-18%, you still will need to pick another program, because allpro's progression will become too fast, and allpros weekly tonnage lifted will not be enough to continue muscle growth. Allpro is still linear progression just like most beginner routines, so at some point you will not be able to just add weight to a fixed set of reps and sets.

As stated the next step is a program that varies the reps, sets, and weight. The simplest is greyskull LP or jasons linear hypertrophy routine. Both are good for 2-3 years of lifting post allpro. If you want a bit more than that, it would something like mad cow, which is for college students looking to go from 4 plate to 5 plate in the deadlift towards the last half off college.

[nightanole]

I’m currently bmi 20, the thing is I think my abs are rather under developed so I need to grow the ab muscles to be able to see them, I would say I am close to 10% body fat, just with little muscle.

Notice i highlighted "look good". This is the "abs on a skinny guy" or "boobs on a fat chick" problem. Yes its possible to get relaxed abs at any bmi, but generally to look like you lift, you need them with a bmi of at least 24. Otherwise you need very good top down lighting, and never wear a shirt.

If you want "developed abs" they normally manifest around 10 reps of bw squats, at any bmi level. Just doing ab exercises wont develop abs, they will just chisel out the last bit that your core work missed. if you still want to do some ab work, that is fine, and is part of the program after a few cycles once you can recover from the volume.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1545044181

[bjw11180]

Yes medium and light days also 3 sets.

Personally you may want to bump it to 300-310. Just as there is a 10 rep test, which is mid between 8 and 12, with the other pattern there is a 6 rep test, which is mid between 4 and 8. It is up to you, it will get scary going forward, its why the program normally ends at those numbers i post, because the bumps start getting massive. If you do 290 then it will be and easy test day, and that means the next cycle will be a 320 working weight or more

Well I thought I was going with 310, thinking that this was 3 plates on each side of the 50-lb trap bar at my gym, but now I realize that I did the math wrong and it was actually 320. I did manage 3x4 at that weight. Every rep was sloooooooow, and my grip wanted to give out toward the end (but didn't). Maybe I should drop back to 310 going forward?

I also went ahead and bumped to 155 on the BOR, and decided to go with the novice pattern here as well, because I am kind of afraid of this weight too. Actually I was able to handle it better than I had feared. It's hardest on my core/low back, just staying braced in the bent over position.

Lastly, I've decided to switch to novice on the BP as well, because for 6 cycles in a row I have been unable to pass at 140 lbs. Hopefully with the extra rest on test week I can finally break through.

[Dumpweed78]

Hi all, Nightanole, the gym wil be closed 2 week for building renovation... What do I do when it open again, start the program from begin? 😱

[nightanole]

Well I thought I was going with 310, thinking that this was 3 plates on each side of the 50-lb trap bar at my gym, but now I realize that I did the math wrong and it was actually 320. I did manage 3x4 at that weight. Every rep was sloooooooow, and my grip wanted to give out toward the end (but didn't). Maybe I should drop back to 310 going forward?

I also went ahead and bumped to 155 on the BOR, and decided to go with the novice pattern here as well, because I am kind of afraid of this weight too. Actually I was able to handle it better than I had feared. It's hardest on my core/low back, just staying braced in the bent over position.

Lastly, I've decided to switch to novice on the BP as well, because for 6 cycles in a row I have been unable to pass at 140 lbs. Hopefully with the extra rest on test week I can finally break through.

Novice is using your 6-7 rep max. So if 4-5 rep weeks are hard, you are going to have a bad time.

[nightanole]

Hi all, Nightanole, the gym wil be closed 2 week for building renovation... What do I do when it open again, start the program from begin? 😱

Reset to 9 rep week if its just a week or 2. If its closed for a month you might want to do a 10 rep test, or do a 7 rep week and extend the cycle to 6 weeks.

[Dumpweed78]

Reset to 9 rep week if its just a week or 2. If its closed for a month you might want to do a 10 rep test, or do a 7 rep week and extend the cycle to 6 weeks.

Thanks for the reply, it's closed just for 2 week, so i do 9 rep week with the heavy, medium, light routine?

[Vyprath]

Do weights decrease for curls and calf raises throughout the week, or just compound lifts?

[Flysher]

Hello,

Just posting to introduce myself and create some accountability. I just recently got the drive to begin lifting and get bigger. I've been small my whole life and want to change that. I've been tinkering with different lifts for the past 2 months with some equipment I put into my basement, and I'd like to begin this routine and stick with it for a while.

Starting stats:

165 pounds, male
33 years old
5'8" (on a good day)

Most recent numbers, sets of 3 unless noted
Back squat - 165x5
military bb press - 85x5
Bench - 135x5
deadlift - 135x8
pendlay rows - 135x8 2 sets
ez bar curls - 72x8 2 sets
front squat 125x5
RDL - 135x8 2 sets

I'm eating and resting as much as i can with 3 kiddos/job/school part time.

One question before beginning this, can I continue pendlay rows in place of bent over rows? I really enjoy them, but dont mind dropping them if necessary.

Thanks to OP for staying active in this thread, thats one reason I've picked this program.

Cheers

[nightanole]

Thanks for the reply, it's closed just for 2 week, so i do 9 rep week with the heavy, medium, light routine?

Yes. You are just starting the cycle over, and skipping the 8 week mini deload, since you dont need it.

[nightanole]

Do weights decrease for curls and calf raises throughout the week, or just compound lifts?

Its recommended. Here is an example problem, say you dont decrease the curl weight, and that increased weekly tonnage is too much to recover from, and that causes the row to stall. If the row stalls, who cares what you are curling, or if you are even curling at all.

Generally with isolation exercises you can get away without reducing the weight, but i would question if there is any benefit if you have the equipment for reduction. if all you have is 10-20-30-40lb dumb bell sets you have to use what you got

[Dumpweed78]

Yes. You are just starting the cycle over, and skipping the 8 week mini deload, since you dont need it.

Thank you

[nightanole]

Hello,

Just posting to introduce myself and create some accountability. I just recently got the drive to begin lifting and get bigger. I've been small my whole life and want to change that. I've been tinkering with different lifts for the past 2 months with some equipment I put into my basement, and I'd like to begin this routine and stick with it for a while.

Starting stats:

165 pounds, male
33 years old
5'8" (on a good day)

Most recent numbers, sets of 3 unless noted
Back squat - 165x5
military bb press - 85x5
Bench - 135x5
deadlift - 135x8
pendlay rows - 135x8 2 sets
ez bar curls - 72x8 2 sets
front squat 125x5
RDL - 135x8 2 sets

I'm eating and resting as much as i can with 3 kiddos/job/school part time.

One question before beginning this, can I continue pendlay rows in place of bent over rows? I really enjoy them, but dont mind dropping them if necessary.

Thanks to OP for staying active in this thread, thats one reason I've picked this program.

Cheers

Switch pendlay to "novice" which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest period. I normally do not recommend pendlay, but that is because people generally are working with well under 100lbs when they start. Pendlay comes into its own around body weight. So starting with 135lbs shouldnt be a problem since in 1 cycle you will be at 150 and really close to body weight.

[Flysher]

Thanks a lot. Looking at the progression plan I may just back off and do the normal rows from the program, because 135 is pretty close to my 'max' right now anyway.

[rainierj]

Hey, thinking about running this program. I would consider myself a beginner and looking into maximize muscle gains in my first year. Is this the best program for hypertrophy? I noticed that the strength increase are done by increasing reps each week before finally bumping up the weight. I have ran a different program where I bump the weight by 5 lbs on all compound lifts every week.

How do these kind of strength progressions schemes compare to eachother? Is this the program for me if I am looking to absolutely maximize my size gains, or is there another you could recommend?

Thanks for your help.

[nightanole]

Hey, thinking about running this program. I would consider myself a beginner and looking into maximize muscle gains in my first year. Is this the best program for hypertrophy? I noticed that the strength increase are done by increasing reps each week before finally bumping up the weight. I have ran a different program where I bump the weight by 5 lbs on all compound lifts every week.

How do these kind of strength progressions schemes compare to eachother? Is this the program for me if I am looking to absolutely maximize my size gains, or is there another you could recommend?

Thanks for your help.

Allpro is a fatigue based program. You slowly build up fatigue over 5 weeks, and are not allowed to recover between workouts nor between sets. Once you can handle 2 sets of 12 with a weight, that means you can also handle 2 sets of 9 with 110% of the weight, but we do have a 8 rep mini deload every cycle, because allpro does not have a reset/deload protocol like the routines that bump the weight every workout.

On the normal 5x5 or 3x5 programs, you are given long rest periods, and normal perform the same lift every other workout. This allows maximum recovery so you can apply maximum force. You then add 5lbs every time you practice the lift, till you fail a rep, then you reset 10% and work your way up again. Once you are in the groove you will be reseting every 4-6 weeks.

Allpro is more for people who like to work with higher reps, want to get in and out of the gym quickly with short rest times, and dont like missing reps unless something went wrong.

3x5 or 5x5 is more for people who like max effort every rep, like to be fresh for each set, and like to test their limits and beyond more frequently.


Other than that, an allpro lifter will carry around less body fat and have higher endurance, and the 3x5 lifter will have more explosive sports strength and have a higher true 1 rep max.

[Vyprath]

So I ate 700 calories over my 500 calorie surplus last night, total of 3200 calories. Am I able to do some cardio to burn off some of the excess calories I did not need?

Do you recommend I lock my arms bench pressing, or should I not lock out to keep tension on the chest for maximum hypertorphy?

My current bench is 40kg, for a 10% increase on the 2nd cycle that will put me at a 44kg bench, do I just round this up to 45kg as I don’t have played for 44kg only 45kg.

[nightanole]

So I ate 700 calories over my 500 calorie surplus last night, total of 3200 calories. Am I able to do some cardio to burn off some of the excess calories I did not need?

Do you recommend I lock my arms bench pressing, or should I not lock out to keep tension on the chest for maximum hypertorphy?

My current bench is 40kg, for a 10% increase on the 2nd cycle that will put me at a 44kg bench, do I just round this up to 45kg as I don’t have played for 44kg only 45kg.

Think "weekly macros" not daily. Just reduce todays or tomorrows calories a bit if you think you went way over budget.


The min bump for the math to work is 10%. For all i know you can handle 50kg. 10% is the min, some can double the work weight in 3 cycles with just practice if they have never done it before.

As for locking your arms, yez you can get all sortz of eblow gainz doing it that way. Straight arm yes, but you dont need to lock the eblows, as that removes all tension from the muscles, and applies to to the joints. So key is you want full range of motion. Same with squats, you dont want to lock the kees, as some people can "chicken leg" it and have it start to bend the other direction/hyperextend when a heavy load is applied, and then they start complaining about pain in the back of the knee "for some reason". So its possible for benchers who lock the elbows to start complaining about pain in the elbow pit "for some reason".

[bjw11180]

Night,

When considering transitioning to Greyskull fairly soon, at least for the big compound lifts, I'm bothered by the fact that it calls for squats 2x/week and deadlifts 1x/week, since I just can't handle traditional back squats to full depth due to the arthritis in my hips. So I wanted to ask what you think about box squats as a substitute? It seems like with box squats you don't hit the same depth, so I feel like my hips could probably handle it.

[nightanole]

Night,

When considering transitioning to Greyskull fairly soon, at least for the big compound lifts, I'm bothered by the fact that it calls for squats 2x/week and deadlifts 1x/week, since I just can't handle traditional back squats to full depth due to the arthritis in my hips. So I wanted to ask what you think about box squats as a substitute? It seems like with box squats you don't hit the same depth, so I feel like my hips could probably handle it.

Well a box squat would be better than say a trap bar squat where you dont touch the ground between reps.

You can tune a box squat for any depth, but its normally set for just below parallel. If you are like me and have a habit of going way to deep, it could be an option. I have recommended them before for knee issues, and they can be a direct replacement for normal squats. Generally you have to go a bit lighter on box squats because you dont have the stretch reflex at the bottom nor the quad power drive.

As far as a proper box squat, once you get your stance and box height correct, your shins should be perpendicular to the floor in all directions. and if your knees travel forward when getting off the box, or you do not put your full weight on the box, its half arsed box squat.

[BS57]

Allpro is a fatigue based program. You slowly build up fatigue over 5 weeks, and are not allowed to recover between workouts nor between sets. Once you can handle 2 sets of 12 with a weight, that means you can also handle 2 sets of 9 with 110% of the weight, but we do have a 8 rep mini deload every cycle, because allpro does not have a reset/deload protocol like the routines that bump the weight every workout.

On the normal 5x5 or 3x5 programs, you are given long rest periods, and normal perform the same lift every other workout. This allows maximum recovery so you can apply maximum force. You then add 5lbs every time you practice the lift, till you fail a rep, then you reset 10% and work your way up again. Once you are in the groove you will be reseting every 4-6 weeks.

Allpro is more for people who like to work with higher reps, want to get in and out of the gym quickly with short rest times, and dont like missing reps unless something went wrong.

3x5 or 5x5 is more for people who like max effort every rep, like to be fresh for each set, and like to test their limits and beyond more frequently.


Other than that, an allpro lifter will carry around less body fat and have higher endurance, and the 3x5 lifter will have more explosive sports strength and have a higher true 1 rep max.

This would certainly be a great bit of info to add to the 1st page, if at all possible?

[nightanole]

This would certainly be a great bit of info to add to the 1st page, if at all possible?

I am allowed to edit OP every 10,000 posts. Last time we got to like 9500 on a tuesday, and a mod auto closed the thread. This meant 2 things, 1 i had to make a new thread that only had 48 hours to edit or less, and 2 i had to slip a mod some prime whey inorder for him to copy pasta the first 1-2 posts to the new thread. Thats why the OP is a train wreck. At best i managed to attach the faq pdf from allpros original q and a.

[BS57]

I am allowed to edit OP every 10,000 posts. Last time we got to like 9500 on a tuesday, and a mod auto closed the thread. This meant 2 things, 1 i had to make a new thread that only had 48 hours to edit or less, and 2 i had to slip a mod some prime whey inorder for him to copy pasta the first 1-2 posts to the new thread. Thats why the OP is a train wreck. At best i managed to attach the faq pdf from allpros original q and a.

Gotchya! These threads should be given exception. It's impossible for someone to read through 200+ pages looking for an answer you've likely given a dozen times already.

I'll just say thanks again for all the help you provide!

[Southgeorge]

A little confusion.. Today was my first day. The 5 week breakdown says 4 sets of 8, 9, 10. But then the first FAQ says only two work sets after warm ups. Also, could we do leg presses instead of squats? More comfortable and could do more weight. I'm not really sure if I'm going to SLDL. I have to do it in a smith machine but I'll keep watching videos and try to get it down.

[nightanole]

A little confusion.. Today was my first day. The 5 week breakdown says 4 sets of 8, 9, 10. But then the first FAQ says only two work sets after warm ups. Also, could we do leg presses instead of squats? More comfortable and could do more weight. I'm not really sure if I'm going to SLDL. I have to do it in a smith machine but I'll keep watching videos and try to get it down.

Squats: warm-up, warm-up, work-set, work-set
Bench Press: warm-up, warm-up, work-set, work-set
Bent Over Row: warm-up, warm-up, work-set, work-set
Over Head Press: work-set, work-set
Stiff Legged Deadlifts: work-set, work-set
Curls: work-set, work-set
Calf Raises: work-set, work-set


Squat can be replaced with the goblet or zercher squat, or in a pinch a hex bar squat( plates dont hit the ground between reps). SLDL most cant get past the knees with a straight back when they first start. You can do the SLDL in the smith, or with a pair of dumb bells. odds are you are not moving massive wieght like a normal deadlift. If you are squatting 95lbs, you should be SLDL less than that.