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  1. #8431
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I read through the last many posts and your responses and I revisited my diet logs and workout logs.

    You said something like “if diet and sleep are in check...” or something to that effect - I’ve for now decided to give my newbie gains one more try. I’m close to my target goal weight of 157lbs and I’m still a fat fuk. Still 20% plus minus a couple. I’m gonna try and bulk 10-12lbs over 5 or so months and then revisit.

    This cycle week 4 and 5, I’m going to slowly up my calories to maintenance and go into a fattie bulk week 1 of next cycle. If week 3/4 of next cycle does not feel easier than it has been I’ll go back to a cut I’m gonna assume my newbie weekly progression days are over and switch to intermediate program/progression.
    If you are going to bulk, i would vastly up the cardio, volume, and even GPP. Cardio is easy, you could even get one of those under desk pedal bikes while gaming/youtubing etc. Volume should be some single jointish stuff, leg press/curls, skull crushers. GPP can be farmer carries and grease the grove chinups and hill sprints.

    But the whole point of the above is to increase your caloric turn over so you can fit more food in your pie hole and not get as fat. Im sure your life tim goal is to have enough caloric turn over that you can cut at 3500-4000 cals
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  2. #8432
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    If you are going to bulk, i would vastly up the cardio, volume, and even GPP. Cardio is easy, you could even get one of those under desk pedal bikes while gaming/youtubing etc. Volume should be some single jointish stuff, leg press/curls, skull crushers. GPP can be farmer carries and grease the grove chinups and hill sprints.

    But the whole point of the above is to increase your caloric turn over so you can fit more food in your pie hole and not get as fat. Im sure your life tim goal is to have enough caloric turn over that you can cut at 3500-4000 cals
    Please critique/fix any of the following of my plans.

    - for the workout I plan on following AllPro vanilla and lift my 10RM weights regardless of what happens my my upcoming week 4 and 5 (even if I pass test day at RPE 10). Hoping to start at lower than maximal weights in hope for newbie progression to resume...

    - volume: can you please suggest specific additional set/reps/lifted weight for volume?

    - will up the cardio

    - GPP - I’ll incorporate chin-ups and pushups. How many sets Or rather, total reps of each should I do? I can get 5 maybe 6 chin-ups from dead hang. Isn’t this going to hinder recovery?

    - my current TDEE is 2450 - 2500. So should I eat at bulking calories of 2700 to 2750 but up my caloric burn so that I’m at net maintenance or even a deficit? Trying to understand this a bit more.
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  3. #8433
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Please critique/fix any of the following of my plans.

    - for the workout I plan on following AllPro vanilla and lift my 10RM weights regardless of what happens my my upcoming week 4 and 5 (even if I pass test day at RPE 10). Hoping to start at lower than maximal weights in hope for newbie progression to resume...

    - volume: can you please suggest specific additional set/reps/lifted weight for volume?

    - will up the cardio

    - GPP - I’ll incorporate chin-ups and pushups. How many sets Or rather, total reps of each should I do? I can get 5 maybe 6 chin-ups from dead hang. Isn’t this going to hinder recovery?

    - my current TDEE is 2450 - 2500. So should I eat at bulking calories of 2700 to 2750 but up my caloric burn so that I’m at net maintenance or even a deficit? Trying to understand this a bit more.
    "volume" would be 15-30 rep sets(20-33% lighter than that days working weight), done directly after the workout. 1-2 sets. It doesnt even have to be every workout. The volume accessory does need to involve less joints than the allpro lift. The goal for this is to burn up more of your glycogen stores(the section of muscle that can not be restored in a reasonable time via blood glucose) but not hinder recovery. The most weight gain will be coming from your waist down and your back. So think about those areas when selecting lifts. Arms and chest are very small muscle groups. Slap a 16oz steak on both your arms, thats 2lbs, and you would have HUGE arms.

    GPP would not be normal chinups/pushups. GPP is is conditioning work, stuff that is sustainable for around 1-5 minutes . Burpees, farmers carries, jumping jacks, hill sprints, jump rope. Stuff that will help you survive 3 minutes in the ring or on the court. Chinups have to be done grease the groove style, half your max reps, spaced out 5-10 sets throughout the day. Again trying to hit that nutrient flushing/ glycogen stores.

    You are looking to gain around 1kg per 4-5 weeks. I have zero clue how many additional calories that would take, since everyone responds differently. I can throw 500 cals at some people and they just run around like school children and burn it all off, and i can throw 200 cals at some people and they gain the correct amount.
    Last edited by nightanole; 07-30-2020 at 10:44 AM.
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  4. #8434
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    "volume" would be 15-30 rep sets(20-33% lighter than that days working weight), done directly after the workout. 1-2 sets. It doesnt even have to be every workout. The volume accessory does need to involve less joints than the allpro lift. The goal for this is to burn up more of your glycogen stores(the section of muscle that can not be restored in a reasonable time via blood glucose) but not hinder recovery. The most weight gain will be coming from your waist down and your back. So think about those areas when selecting lifts. Arms and chest are very small muscle groups. Slap a 16oz steak on both your arms, thats 2lbs, and you would have HUGE arms.

    GPP would not be normal chinups/pushups. GPP is is conditioning work, stuff that is sustainable for around 1-5 minutes . Burpees, farmers carries, jumping jacks, hill sprints, jump rope. Stuff that will help you survive 3 minutes in the ring or on the court. Chinups have to be done grease the groove style, half your max reps, spaced out 5-10 sets throughout the day. Again trying to hit that nutrient flushing/ glycogen stores.

    You are looking to gain around 1kg per 4-5 weeks. I have zero clue how many additional calories that would take, since everyone responds differently. I can throw 500 cals at some people and they just run around like school children and burn it all off, and i can throw 200 cals at some people and they gain the correct amount.
    While still trying to gain 1KG/2.2lb per cycle. Correct? Or am I trying to stay at the same weight?
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  5. #8435
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    While still trying to gain 1KG/2.2lb per cycle. Correct? Or am I trying to stay at the same weight?
    Gaining. I never have and never will recommend anyone stay the same weight. Always be perma bulking/cutting Once you are in the groove you will be bulking 2/3-3/4 of the year, and cutting the rest. For the rest of your life.
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  6. #8436
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Gaining. I never have and never will recommend anyone stay the same weight. Always be perma bulking/cutting Once you are in the groove you will be bulking 2/3-3/4 of the year, and cutting the rest. For the rest of your life.
    Yes sir. Makes sense. Will do!

    Here I go with another question :-p

    Is reverse dieting good to do when going from cut to bulk? I don’t do a slow bump of 100 calories per week. I bump calories By 100 - 200 every two to four days depending on how I’m feeling. Stay at maintenance for a week or so then bump by 100 every few days to get into that bulk. Monitor and tweak every couple weeks from there.

    Is this a waste of time? What’s a good strategy to switch to bulk?

    I bought into it cuz they say hormones take time to settle and body takes 4 or so weeks to get into an anabolic mode after going from cutting to bulking

    Edit: could volume work be ab work? Two sets of weighted cable crunches 15 to 30 reps each? I was actually doing these at the end of my light days when I was resting 90 seconds between sets. But a few weeks ago based on our conversation I’ve reduced medium day rest to 60 seconds and light day rest to 45 seconds. I look forward to the end of the calf raises cuz I’m beat and feel like skipping and actually skip the cable crunches. Should I up the rest? It’s exhausting but it’s manageable.
    Last edited by TryingBB; 07-30-2020 at 12:46 PM.
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  7. #8437
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Yes sir. Makes sense. Will do!

    Here I go with another question :-p

    Is reverse dieting good to do when going from cut to bulk? I don’t do a slow bump of 100 calories per week. I bump calories By 100 - 200 every two to four days depending on how I’m feeling. Stay at maintenance for a week or so then bump by 100 every few days to get into that bulk. Monitor and tweak every couple weeks from there.

    Is this a waste of time? What’s a good strategy to switch to bulk?

    I bought into it cuz they say hormones take time to settle and body takes 4 or so weeks to get into an anabolic mode after going from cutting to bulking

    Edit: could volume work be ab work? Two sets of weighted cable crunches 15 to 30 reps each? I was actually doing these at the end of my light days when I was resting 90 seconds between sets. But a few weeks ago based on our conversation I’ve reduced medium day rest to 60 seconds and light day rest to 45 seconds. I look forward to the end of the calf raises cuz I’m beat and feel like skipping and actually skip the cable crunches. Should I up the rest? It’s exhausting but it’s manageable.
    reverse dieting is a myth. Extremely lean folk get scared of the water weight that happens when you increase carbs, so people try to sell you stuff.

    But generally you just adjust the diet up or down 200 calories every 2 weeks till the scale starts moving in the direction you want it.

    I normally do not like dynamic ab work. In all lifts, the goal of the abs is to maintain a neutral spine. You are not practicing that doing crunches etc.

    For my abs "cant cheat" list:
    Ab wheel roll outs
    Hanging leg raises
    high foot(foot goes above the knee) farmer walks/carries
    landmine 180's
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  8. #8438
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    For the last several weeks I’ve been very diligent about my rest times between sets. Heavy day 90 seconds, medium day 60-70 seconds and light days 45-60 seconds.

    I am doing this between sets and between exercises also. Today was heavy day week 4 and between sets the rest is fine but I’m feeling I’m not recovered at all when I switch from let’s say squats to bench and bench to the Row. Even bicep curls after SLDL we’re looking scary today to me lol (and usually do Specially on my light days cuz I rest only 45-60seconds between sets and exercises)

    I checked my heart rate on the iPhone app and it was 120ish after rows. I just couldn’t go and do OHP without resting and letting the heart rate drop to about 105 before starting OHP (As a reference Since I’ve lost a bunch of weight and stopped smoking, my resting heart rate is low 50s when I wake up and 57 during the day resting. Moving around is low to mid 60s)

    So question is, is it ok to rest Longer between exercises (Not sets) and catch your breath? What’s the maximum I could rest between exercises? Between sets, 90 seconds is just fine. It feels like a circuit and I’m rushing to change weights And setup between exercises to make my rest periods and usually make it
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  9. #8439
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    For the last several weeks I’ve been very diligent about my rest times between sets. Heavy day 90 seconds, medium day 60-70 seconds and light days 45-60 seconds.

    I am doing this between sets and between exercises also. Today was heavy day week 4 and between sets the rest is fine but I’m feeling I’m not recovered at all when I switch from let’s say squats to bench and bench to the Row. Even bicep curls after SLDL we’re looking scary today to me lol (and usually do Specially on my light days cuz I rest only 45-60seconds between sets and exercises)

    I checked my heart rate on the iPhone app and it was 120ish after rows. I just couldn’t go and do OHP without resting and letting the heart rate drop to about 105 before starting OHP (As a reference Since I’ve lost a bunch of weight and stopped smoking, my resting heart rate is low 50s when I wake up and 57 during the day resting. Moving around is low to mid 60s)

    So question is, is it ok to rest Longer between exercises (Not sets) and catch your breath? What’s the maximum I could rest between exercises? Between sets, 90 seconds is just fine. It feels like a circuit and I’m rushing to change weights And setup between exercises to make my rest periods and usually make it
    Rest time between exercises is unlimited. Some can just go boom boom boom and get the whole workout done in 30-35min. Others are light headed after squats and or bench and need to take a 5-10 minute break. These long breaks will not affect gainz.
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  10. #8440
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    Hi, sooo long time no visit this thread, and long time no lifting period. Although my gym is reopened, I still don't feel comfortable going there. I've managed to pick up some workable adjustable dumbbells just this week. That's all I have to work with at the moment. I figured I'd start back with this program to try to get restarted, since it's straightforward. I just want to make sure I've got things right on exercise substitutions if using dumbbells:

    Squat <-> Goblet Squat
    Bench Press <-> DB Bench Press or Floor Press
    OHP <-> Seated Arnold Press
    BOR <-> DB BOR

    I think the remaining exercises are straightforward enough.
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  11. #8441
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bjw11180 View Post
    Hi, sooo long time no visit this thread, and long time no lifting period. Although my gym is reopened, I still don't feel comfortable going there. I've managed to pick up some workable adjustable dumbbells just this week. That's all I have to work with at the moment. I figured I'd start back with this program to try to get restarted, since it's straightforward. I just want to make sure I've got things right on exercise substitutions if using dumbbells:

    Squat <-> Goblet Squat
    Bench Press <-> DB Bench Press or Floor Press
    OHP <-> Seated Arnold Press
    BOR <-> DB BOR

    I think the remaining exercises are straightforward enough.
    Looks good, its usually better to use hammer grip on the row and SLDL. And the arnold press can be done standing if you want for a bit more core involvement, since its the only OHP. Now if you were doing the arnold as an accessory id do sitting.
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  12. #8442
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    New member here, have been looking for a routine to get back into weight training and have decided to give this a go. For several years now I've mainly been a runner but fancy changing things around so that weights are my main focus and will continue With running (at a reduced distance) on my off days. Looking to lose the flab around my belly and build my upper body especially.

    Going to be using dumbbells (at least initially) for safety reasons as I no longer have a rack and prefer to train from home.

    I'm in my early fifties any adjustments to the program recommended for age? I am considering adjusting the rep range slightly (say starting at 10 reps rather than 8 week 1 and building to 14 over the 5 week cycle.) Any thoughts on this?
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  13. #8443
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SHAJE View Post
    New member here, have been looking for a routine to get back into weight training and have decided to give this a go. For several years now I've mainly been a runner but fancy changing things around so that weights are my main focus and will continue With running (at a reduced distance) on my off days. Looking to lose the flab around my belly and build my upper body especially.

    Going to be using dumbbells (at least initially) for safety reasons as I no longer have a rack and prefer to train from home.

    I'm in my early fifties any adjustments to the program recommended for age? I am considering adjusting the rep range slightly (say starting at 10 reps rather than 8 week 1 and building to 14 over the 5 week cycle.) Any thoughts on this?
    There is no need to change anything. You will pass test day less often, so you may pass every other or every 3rd test day even on a good run, but that is still increasing your lifts 50% or more every year.

    I dont like to have old people do high rep work. High rep work in general is only for more advanced lifters. The reason is most studies show absolute beginners get very sloppy pass rep 5, no matter the effort, it could be a 5 rep max or 10 rep max weight.

    What you could do is immediately start off with "novice" variant. Which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps for for first 3 full body lifts (bench/row/squat in any order). This will give you 1 extra rest period, and test day will still be 24 reps total. You will not be working with your 6 rep max or anything from going lower rep, people figure that out real quick if they try
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  14. #8444
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    There is no need to change anything. You will pass test day less often, so you may pass every other or every 3rd test day even on a good run, but that is still increasing your lifts 50% or more every year.

    I dont like to have old people do high rep work. High rep work in general is only for more advanced lifters. The reason is most studies show absolute beginners get very sloppy pass rep 5, no matter the effort, it could be a 5 rep max or 10 rep max weight.

    What you could do is immediately start off with "novice" variant. Which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps for for first 3 full body lifts (bench/row/squat in any order). This will give you 1 extra rest period, and test day will still be 24 reps total. You will not be working with your 6 rep max or anything from going lower rep, people figure that out real quick if they try
    Are there any changes necessary to AllPro vanilla for 40yr olds??

    Any other recommendations or expectations to be set for 40yr olds?
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  15. #8445
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Are there any changes necessary to AllPro vanilla for 40yr olds??

    Any other recommendations or expectations to be set for 40yr olds?
    Nope, the only difference between an 18 year old and a 80 year old on allpro, is the amount of times you pass in a year, and how soon you need to switch to novice

    You can run allpro for life for health, its just allpro doesnt have enough volume for progression once you have "made it". But you can ramp up and fail test day for the rest of your days and still be injury free (since novice has you doubling the volume during the cycle) and still look better than the desk jockeys, all for the low price of the run time of 1 movie a week.
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  16. #8446
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Nope, the only difference between an 18 year old and a 80 year old on allpro, is the amount of times you pass in a year, and how soon you need to switch to novice

    (since novice has you doubling the volume during the cycle)
    Hey can you please remind me or post link to the novice plan? thanks!

    currently in my 7th cycle, its all going great. This week I missed a couple squat reps for the 1st time since I started the program. Getting to my limit. I've been working really hard this cycle. Might not pass squat test this week, but should pass next cycle.
    Feeling good. (body weight 190lb, squatting 2x12 187.5lbs)
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Nope, the only difference between an 18 year old and a 80 year old on allpro, is the amount of times you pass in a year, and how soon you need to switch to novice

    You can run allpro for life for health, its just allpro doesnt have enough volume for progression once you have "made it". But you can ramp up and fail test day for the rest of your days and still be injury free (since novice has you doubling the volume during the cycle) and still look better than the desk jockeys, all for the low price of the run time of 1 movie a week.
    Got it. Thanks

    I’ve been in a deficit and Not getting DOMS or lingering “good soreness” hours or a day or two after workouts. I upped my calories in week 3 and currently running week 4. I’m at maintenance since heavy day and yesterday was medium day.

    I am waking up sore in my quads, Glutes, triceps, biceps and chest and a tad bid lingering slight DOMSy feeling throughout the day.

    Why would I not have this soreness during a cut? I lifted same weight last cycle with the same weight and made reps till week 4. I’m also currently on week 4 same weights as last week.
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Got it. Thanks

    I’ve been in a deficit and Not getting DOMS or lingering “good soreness” hours or a day or two after workouts. I upped my calories in week 3 and currently running week 4. I’m at maintenance since heavy day and yesterday was medium day.

    I am waking up sore in my quads, Glutes, triceps, biceps and chest and a tad bid lingering slight DOMSy feeling throughout the day.

    Why would I not have this soreness during a cut? I lifted same weight last cycle with the same weight and made reps till week 4. I’m also currently on week 4 same weights as last week.
    Im guessing bar speed increased when the calories increased...

    Other theories are that with reduced calories, comes much higher reduction in water weight and glycogen stores. So you were not as "swole" or "got the pump" after the deficit workout, because there was not as much as much lactic acid build up from the anaerobic activity. Once you get the pump, you are dun. No more nutrients are going to be flowing in or flushed out, for several hours. And in theory thats what causes the delayed irritation.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Im guessing bar speed increased when the calories increased...

    Other theories are that with reduced calories, comes much higher reduction in water weight and glycogen stores. So you were not as "swole" or "got the pump" after the deficit workout, because there was not as much as much lactic acid build up from the anaerobic activity. Once you get the pump, you are dun. No more nutrients are going to be flowing in or flushed out, for several hours. And in theory thats what causes the delayed irritation.
    I see. I thought maybe cuz I’m building muscle since I’m not in deficit anymore but it almost sounds like a bad thing lol

    Ain’t worried about it just saying...

    Thanks for all your help and explanations man. Big time help. Looking forward to my next cycle and hopefully some gains in the coming months.
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I see. I thought maybe cuz I’m building muscle since I’m not in deficit anymore but it almost sounds like a bad thing lol

    Ain’t worried about it just saying...

    Thanks for all your help and explanations man. Big time help. Looking forward to my next cycle and hopefully some gains in the coming months.
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    I just tested my 10 rep maxes when do I start my first day?

    Just starting the AllPros Routine should I wait a couple days before beginning my 1st week? I've already tested each exercise to failure . Thank you.
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    Hi - can you please post or link what the novice plans are? Just finished my test for 7th cycle. Stalling out on several exercises. thanks much
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    Originally Posted by osmonix View Post
    Hi - can you please post or link what the novice plans are? Just finished my test for 7th cycle. Stalling out on several exercises. thanks much
    "novice" is converting up to the first 3 lifts to 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest time.

    Then there is auto regulated that is still 2 sets, but its all heavies and reps drop during the week:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1376160513
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    "novice" is converting up to the first 3 lifts to 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest time.
    cool thanks, couple follow up questions:
    a) So you leave the press, sldl, curl, calf raise at 2 sets of 8-12?
    b) For squat, bench, row do I just start at 3 sets x4 at my current weight?
    c) is there an estimate for how much farther this routine will take me?
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    "novice" is converting up to the first 3 lifts to 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest time.
    oh, and one more. above you said novice is double the volume but this seems the same 24 reps vs 24 reps, or am I missing something?
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    Originally Posted by osmonix View Post
    oh, and one more. above you said novice is double the volume but this seems the same 24 reps vs 24 reps, or am I missing something?
    Yup, bench/row/squat are now 3 sets of 4-8 reps. Test day is still 24 reps total if you do the math. The rest of the routine is the standard 2 sets of 8-12

    On vanilla you start with 8 reps and work up to 12 reps. That is a 50% increase in volume.
    On novice you start with 4 reps and work up to 8 reps. That is doubling the volume.

    Novice does not increase the working weight, you are still working with around your 10 rep max. But the novice pattern has a deepers deload and faster ramp up. It also gives you 1 extra rest period, since now you can tax yourself much more than when you first started.

    In terms of extending the program. Novice or autoregulated should extend the program another 3 cycles. It basically makes it a full year program instead of 5-7 cycles.

    After that, no amount of programming magic will push progression of a routine that is 45min 3x a week. You are going to need more volume, odds are 50-100% more volume by the time you are deep intermediate.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    In terms of extending the program. Novice or autoregulated should extend the program another 3 cycles. It basically makes it a full year program instead of 5-7 cycles....

    After that, no amount of programming magic will push progression of a routine that is 45min 3x a week. You are going to need more volume, odds are 50-100% more volume by the time you are deep intermediate.
    great thanks for all the answers. I'm on cycle 7 so will make the switch next heavy day.
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    Hello Wonderful folks,

    So I Was following allpro and did 6 cycles and then the Covid situation put it on a pause. the Gyms are open and I managed to secure a membership in a nearby gym. For last 5 months I wasn't lifting heavy but recently got a bench and adjustable 25 lb dumbells and I Felt like 25 LB got a lot heavier compared to Pre Covid . I finished my 6th Cycle at 180 lb Bench press and I feel I Can't move that much weight.

    I'm planning to start the All PRo again but not sure what's the weight I Shall start with? would it be good enough to have 10% increment, or I'll gain the stretch comparatively faster this time due to muscle memory? please help me out.
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    Question

    Originally Posted by WeightSwinger View Post
    Just starting the AllPros Routine should I wait a couple days before beginning my 1st week? I've already tested each exercise to failure . Thank you.
    Same question I have - or do I continue on medium day? So the first week of the first cycle will be: Testing 10RM - medium day (8 reps) - light day (8 reps).

    Thanks
    "Get up, and don't ever give up".
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    Originally Posted by xuerebx View Post
    Same question I have - or do I continue on medium day? So the first week of the first cycle will be: Testing 10RM - medium day (8 reps) - light day (8 reps).

    Thanks
    The only rule is 72 hours rest before any heavy. And you start the cycle on a heavy... You can always practice form and do medium and light, but looks like the official cycle starts next week
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