AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[nightanole]

Hi,

I just started getting back into weight training again after many years off. When I was lifting at the time, I was on Starting Strength, and was eating at a calorie surplus to bulk up. When I stopped lifting, I kept eating the same for a long period of time, (and also drank a fair bit too...).

At 29yo, 5'6, and 113kg/249lb, I decided enough was enough.

So I went to the gym for the first time since that point on New Year's Eve. My brother put me on a 6-day per week PPL split program, and I had a free PT session on 10 January to get my measurements and answer any questions I had. The PT told me my bf% was 42.1% and LBM is 65.5kg/144lb. I also aim to eat 1800 calories a day, which is roughly 500 calories below my TDEE, and have also tried to cut down my carbs as much as possible.

I was consistent on that program, and although I didn't rigidly stick to the 1800 calories, I got as close as possible to the figure. Since the 10th, I've lost 2.4kg/5lb.

As I'm back at work now, a 6-day a week program was not feasible, so I originally looked at moving on to the Fierce 5 program, but it said that people who have more than 30lb to lose should go on Allpro, so here I am!

I did my 10RM tests yesterday, but will need to test my barbell curl, as I misread the curls in the program for DB curls and tested them instead.

So, excluding curls, my rounded-down 10RM's and therefore starting weights are:
-Squat: 47.5kg/105lb
-Bench: 40kg/88lb
-Two-Arm Bent-Over Dumbbell Row (see below): 15kg/33lb per arm
-OHP: 25kg/55lb
-SLDL: 50kg/110lb
-Calf Raise: 80kg/176lb

I had a question about the barbbell bent-over rows. I have a proper pot belly, and so when I was originally doing them on my 6 week program, I wasn't really getting much of a workout as the distance between the starting position and the contracted position is quite low. So I had switched between two-arm bent-over dumbbell rows and pendlay rows.

For this program, would pendlay rows, two-arm dumbbell rows, or seated cable rows be acceptable alternatives to the BB bent-over rows, and if not, what would you suggest? I prefer pendlay rows out of the three, as it's a barbell exercise, and my gym has 1.25kg plates. The dumbbells in my gym are in 2.5kg increments, and a 10% increase on 15kg for the dumbbell rows is 16.5kg, which would round-down to 15kg...Also the seated cable row, being a machine, has 20lb increments, which is just as bad for calculating increases.

Thanks!

A few things stick out. First you are at 1800 cals. My recommended starting diet is 100g of fats/protien, and 200-300g of carbs. You are below that by a good 300 cals. However you are pretty fat so you may get away with your 1800 for a little while, Once you are say 25%, 1800 will kick your arse and you wont be able to "perform", and lifts will turn to crap.

You are also trying to keep carbs down. On this program that will also come to bite you in the arse. This is a fatigue based training style, its the opposite of starting strength. Due to this your glycogen stores need to be full for each workout, or the 2nd set will start kicking your arse as you run out of gas. So keep an eye out with that.

Finally your row problem. It needs to be "bent over" 45-60 degrees. Not the back parallel to the floor version. You can do pendlays if your working weight is 125-135lbs or more, else they are not recommended. Basically you are going for a reverse bench, so if you can use about the same grip width, and hit about the same spot on the chest as bench, you have nailed it. Depending on your gym, you have have a hex/trap bar, in which case that takes your belly out of the equation. Else you can also try hammer grip dumb bells.

[Vyprath]

Today was the first day of cycle 2 for me, increased the weight of all my lifts by 10% (got all 12 reps on test day). All of the lifts felt good/as they should but I struggled quite a lot on bench press, I still managed to get my 2x8 reps but form wasn’t the best.

Hi night, I think you missed my post. Your help is greatly appreciated!

[tap_the_neck]

A few things stick out. First you are at 1800 cals. My recommended starting diet is 100g of fats/protien, and 200-300g of carbs. You are below that by a good 300 cals. However you are pretty fat so you may get away with your 1800 for a little while, Once you are say 25%, 1800 will kick your arse and you wont be able to "perform", and lifts will turn to crap.

You are also trying to keep carbs down. On this program that will also come to bite you in the arse. This is a fatigue based training style, its the opposite of starting strength. Due to this your glycogen stores need to be full for each workout, or the 2nd set will start kicking your arse as you run out of gas. So keep an eye out with that.

Finally your row problem. It needs to be "bent over" 45-60 degrees. Not the back parallel to the floor version. You can do pendlays if your working weight is 125-135lbs or more, else they are not recommended. Basically you are going for a reverse bench, so if you can use about the same grip width, and hit about the same spot on the chest as bench, you have nailed it. Depending on your gym, you have have a hex/trap bar, in which case that takes your belly out of the equation. Else you can also try hammer grip dumb bells.

Thanks for tips, I really appreciate it.

[nightanole]

Hi night, I think you missed my post. Your help is greatly appreciated!

Do a 10 rep test with your working weight(instead of the 2 set of bla bla on next session). If you fail you are not ready for the weight. I have no clue if monday was just an off day for you...

The alternative if you are around 2/3-3/4 bw, is to switch to novice which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps.

[bjw11180]

A few things stick out. First you are at 1800 cals. My recommended starting diet is 100g of fats/protien, and 200-300g of carbs. You are below that by a good 300 cals. However you are pretty fat so you may get away with your 1800 for a little while, Once you are say 25%, 1800 will kick your arse and you wont be able to "perform", and lifts will turn to crap.

You are also trying to keep carbs down. On this program that will also come to bite you in the arse. This is a fatigue based training style, its the opposite of starting strength. Due to this your glycogen stores need to be full for each workout, or the 2nd set will start kicking your arse as you run out of gas. So keep an eye out with that.

Finally your row problem. It needs to be "bent over" 45-60 degrees. Not the back parallel to the floor version. You can do pendlays if your working weight is 125-135lbs or more, else they are not recommended. Basically you are going for a reverse bench, so if you can use about the same grip width, and hit about the same spot on the chest as bench, you have nailed it. Depending on your gym, you have have a hex/trap bar, in which case that takes your belly out of the equation. Else you can also try hammer grip dumb bells.

How does one row with a trap bar?

[nightanole]

How does one row with a trap bar?

https://brobible.com/sports/article/trap-bar-row/

[Vyprath]

The alternative if you are around 2/3-3/4 bw, is to switch to novice which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps.

What does this mean?

[nightanole]

What does this mean?

Instead of 2 sets of 8-12, its 3 sets of 4-8. If you do the math test day is still 24 reps.

"novice" is switching up to the first 3 lifts (bench/row/squat) to 3 sets of 4-8 reps.

[kgatti]

Great routine! Thanks for the share

[polivoks]

I believe you were intermittent fasting, and shooting for 3250 on eating days, and that was not cutting it. Intermittent fasting is broad, it could mean a 4-6 hour window, every day, or it could be skipping 3-5 meals in a row once or twice a week. In either case you still should be shooting for weekly calories, unless you are eating the same thing every day ala meal prep. So again shoot for 21k weekly, if that does not cut it, up it 1750(250 per day) a week till the scale starts moving, that could literally just be 2 extra chipolte burritos per week.

yeah some days i was missing calories.. but since last 10 days i started stuffing myself on almost 3500 calories daily and also supplementing with creatine again, was off of it some 3 months.. and now went from 76kg to 78kg... passed bench 65kg this week and today almost passed squat 80kg.. so it seems something is happening good.. not sure if i can keep up with this caloric intake it can be heavy to eat so much..

[bjw11180]

https://brobible.com/sports/article/trap-bar-row/

Interesting. I've been toying around with the idea of switching over to the Pendlay row because my working weight on the BOR has gotten high enough that I feel like I need to. Do you have an opinion on whether the trap bar version would be better or worse than the Pendlay with barbell?

[nightanole]

Interesting. I've been toying around with the idea of switching over to the Pendlay row because my working weight on the BOR has gotten high enough that I feel like I need to. Do you have an opinion on whether the trap bar version would be better or worse than the Pendlay with barbell?

My only opinion is that pendlay style(hits the ground each rep) starts to become more effective than bent over rows, once the working weight is around 115-135lbs(rep range doesnt matter). Under/over or hammer grip is decided by how your wrists and forearm perform, and how often you need to switch them around to prevent repeat bout injuries.

[bjw11180]

My only opinion is that pendlay style(hits the ground each rep) starts to become more effective than bent over rows, once the working weight is around 115-135lbs(rep range doesnt matter). Under/over or hammer grip is decided by how your wrists and forearm perform, and how often you need to switch them around to prevent repeat bout injuries.

Yeah on BOR I passed 140 last cycle and bumped to 155 this cycle and it is just too much on my low back and core to hold the bent over position with that weight. I think I'll switch over next cycle. Would it make sense to drop the weight back (maybe to 135 or a little less) while I get used to the variation? I've never done the Pendlay before.

[nightanole]

Yeah on BOR I passed 140 last cycle and bumped to 155 this cycle and it is just too much on my low back and core to hold the bent over position with that weight. I think I'll switch over next cycle. Would it make sense to drop the weight back (maybe to 135 or a little less) while I get used to the variation? I've never done the Pendlay before.

When in doubt do a 10 rep test. Pendlay should be easier on your lower back, but require more explosive power off the ground. You wont be able to hit your chest with the correct weight, if you can not create enough momentum off the ground. If you yank hard enough you will hit your chest, gone are the days of being able to hold it against your chest for a few seconds, or having a slow controlled rep.

[Vyprath]

Haven’t got doms for a couple weeks now, is this a bad thing? Thanks

[nightanole]

Haven’t got doms for a couple weeks now, is this a bad thing? Thanks

You only get DOMS when you are adapting to a program change(new lift, change in volume, change in frequency, etc). If you are just progressive overloading then you shouldnt be getting them.

[polivoks]

When in doubt do a 10 rep test. Pendlay should be easier on your lower back, but require more explosive power off the ground. You wont be able to hit your chest with the correct weight, if you can not create enough momentum off the ground. If you yank hard enough you will hit your chest, gone are the days of being able to hold it against your chest for a few seconds, or having a slow controlled rep.

Been kind of struggling with regular row technique
and also with practicing pendlay rows.. lifting currently 75-80kg row
Was looking into this versions that Jeff shows if they make sense?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3N-TO4reLQ
to place the barbell on safety bar after each rep.. and also dead row version.. still im confused on all..
and also not sure if when doing deadrow.. do i need to do SLDL after?

[nightanole]

Been kind of struggling with regular row technique
and also with practicing pendlay rows.. lifting currently 75-80kg row
Was looking into this versions that Jeff shows if they make sense?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3N-TO4reLQ
to place the barbell on safety bar after each rep.. and also dead row version.. still im confused on all..
and also not sure if when doing deadrow.. do i need to do SLDL after?

Athlean X does more of a yates row. It is very upright and really targets the lats.

However you want the traditional pendlay row. Its more bent over,targets more of the core, more of the bicep, and less of the lat. The reason for this is allpro does not have a real deadlift. If allpro did have a real deadlift, then the athlean-x version would be wonderful, because it would allow you to deadlift more often.

If you want a tip, you should be pendlaying at about the same spot as you can SLDL down to. So if you can get to mid shin on the SLDL, you should have no problem pedlay off the ground. If you cant get past the knees yet, then you need to pull from the safeties or blocks.

And the dead row or pendlay is not a sub for the SLDL.

[killakam99]

Hey nightanole! Ive been following this program for a few months now and im on my 4th cycle now. I haven't failed any test days so far (knock on wood).
My question was in regards to some weights that are hard to find. For example; my bicep curls weight on heavy day is 53 and it is hard to do with 2.5/5/10 increments available at the gym. What do you recommend here?
If i plug the numbers in the 1rpm calculator for 53lb/8 reps, the closest weight i come up with is 50lb/9 reps. Would this formula work?

Another question, my cousin wants to follow this program but is rehabbing an old ankle injury with a boot. he can unfortunately not squat, is there anything else he can do which doesn't require a lot of pressure being put on one foot? maybe a machine?

thanks in advance man, really appreciate the work you have put in this thread.

[Vyprath]

Would you suggest I do progressive overload with my lying tricep extensions (aka skullcrushers) and bicep curls? As I. Lowering the weight each day, following the same pattern as my compounds?

What’s the best way to warm up my knees before squats and get some blood in them?

Thanks

[nightanole]

Hey nightanole! Ive been following this program for a few months now and im on my 4th cycle now. I haven't failed any test days so far (knock on wood).
My question was in regards to some weights that are hard to find. For example; my bicep curls weight on heavy day is 53 and it is hard to do with 2.5/5/10 increments available at the gym. What do you recommend here?
If i plug the numbers in the 1rpm calculator for 53lb/8 reps, the closest weight i come up with is 50lb/9 reps. Would this formula work?

Another question, my cousin wants to follow this program but is rehabbing an old ankle injury with a boot. he can unfortunately not squat, is there anything else he can do which doesn't require a lot of pressure being put on one foot? maybe a machine?

thanks in advance man, really appreciate the work you have put in this thread.

Weights dont have to be exact, you can do 100% 85% 75% for example, for the smaller lifts. Just keep bar speed high (it should be increasing as weight is reduced). Other than that i just made myself some chain hoops that are 8oz each so i can go up and down 1 pound. If you have the cash you can even by a "fractional" weight set that does the same thing.

No adding reps to makeup for weight doesnt work, since its not increasing tension. If that was the case then you would have programs that started at 8 reps and ended when you could do 50 rep sets several months later.

Your buddy can do leg curls, but leg extensions are a no no(unless he only wants to do them for a cycle or 2, they are hard on the knees long term). Once he is medically discharged he can do box squats, which require little to no ankle movement.

[nightanole]

Would you suggest I do progressive overload with my lying tricep extensions (aka skullcrushers) and bicep curls? As I. Lowering the weight each day, following the same pattern as my compounds?

What’s the best way to warm up my knees before squats and get some blood in them?

Thanks

Accessories anything goes, you are just trying to add weekly tonnage to the program. If you want to do straight weight all week, go for it. If bench goes up, you can even keep skull crushers the same weight/reps, since over all tricep volume is increasing cycle to cycle.

[bjw11180]

Athlean X does more of a yates row. It is very upright and really targets the lats.

However you want the traditional pendlay row. Its more bent over,targets more of the core, more of the bicep, and less of the lat. The reason for this is allpro does not have a real deadlift. If allpro did have a real deadlift, then the athlean-x version would be wonderful, because it would allow you to deadlift more often.

If you want a tip, you should be pendlaying at about the same spot as you can SLDL down to. So if you can get to mid shin on the SLDL, you should have no problem pedlay off the ground. If you cant get past the knees yet, then you need to pull from the safeties or blocks.

And the dead row or pendlay is not a sub for the SLDL.

I don't understand the bolded part. What does deadlifting have to do with whether the row variation hits lats as opposed to biceps/core?

[Vyprath]

Accessories anything goes, you are just trying to add weekly tonnage to the program. If you want to do straight weight all week, go for it. If bench goes up, you can even keep skull crushers the same weight/reps, since over all tricep volume is increasing cycle to cycle.

What about for warming up my knee for squats?

Also, when I do SLDL I get a weird feeling in both of my outer abductors (although primarily right one) when pulling up from the bottom of the movement, it’s an uncomfortable feeling not so much a pain.

What’s the best way to increase my strength in pull ups? Will be using an assisted machine. Do you recommend I just do assisted with the same weight each session and increase reps or?

Thanks again

[nightanole]

I don't understand the bolded part. What does deadlifting have to do with whether the row variation hits lats as opposed to biceps/core?

The bent over row is incredibly taxing to the lower back. Its chosen because if your back can handle it, it can handle anything. If you replace it with something that takes the back out the equation, such as a chinup, t-bar row, or a very upright row, you then have to re-balance back/core work back into the program.

So if you want to do alot of high frequency deadlifting/squats, you are not going to be using bent over rows in your program.
So if you want not make your core the limiting factor, you are going program in alot of back fatiguing lifts, such as high rep squats, bent over rows, and a back friendly deadlift(SLDL).

[Orewa]

Hey Nightanole,

As always thanks for the time you put into this thread - top effort!

I am on week 4 of cycle 1 after having done 2 months of SL prior to switching to AllPro.

One of my goals is to get strong enough to do chin ups for reps, but I am too fat / not strong enough to do even one yet.

I have switched the bicep curls to narrow underhand grip lat pull downs as I guess these most closely mimic the chin up movements, but what rep / progression scheme should I use to get me to my goal as quickly as possible? Is 10 sets of 3 the way to go or is this too much volume? The lat machine at my gym uses 9kg weight increments so the regular progression is not possible.

The plan is to get to the point where I can do one chin up, then get a chin up bar at home so I can "grease the groove".

I'm loving AllPro and don't want to screw it up!

Thanks in advance.

[killakam99]

Weights dont have to be exact, you can do 100% 85% 75% for example, for the smaller lifts. Just keep bar speed high (it should be increasing as weight is reduced). Other than that i just made myself some chain hoops that are 8oz each so i can go up and down 1 pound. If you have the cash you can even by a "fractional" weight set that does the same thing.

No adding reps to makeup for weight doesnt work, since its not increasing tension. If that was the case then you would have programs that started at 8 reps and ended when you could do 50 rep sets several months later.

Your buddy can do leg curls, but leg extensions are a no no(unless he only wants to do them for a cycle or 2, they are hard on the knees long term). Once he is medically discharged he can do box squats, which require little to no ankle movement.

Thanks again for replying, I have micro weights i purchased. They are usually just a conversation starter at the gym lol

If you don't mind, i had two further questions for you.
My cousin wants to start on the program to lose weight and build up a little strength. She is wondering if chest is a must on it, she has never done bench press before and was wondering if it is required and if it fits her goals.

My other cousin weighed 280lb when he started this program and he is right with me on his 4th cycle now. He weighs 230lb now and on the last cycle, he failed a few tests . He has been on a meal plan and on a good caloric deficit.
He feels discouraged after failing a few lifts on his last test and isn't sure if he should keep doing this as the failing might continue as he sheds more weight. Should he continue doing this if weight loss is his main goal?

Thanks once again dude

[nightanole]

Hey Nightanole,

As always thanks for the time you put into this thread - top effort!

I am on week 4 of cycle 1 after having done 2 months of SL prior to switching to AllPro.

One of my goals is to get strong enough to do chin ups for reps, but I am too fat / not strong enough to do even one yet.

I have switched the bicep curls to narrow underhand grip lat pull downs as I guess these most closely mimic the chin up movements, but what rep / progression scheme should I use to get me to my goal as quickly as possible? Is 10 sets of 3 the way to go or is this too much volume? The lat machine at my gym uses 9kg weight increments so the regular progression is not possible.

The plan is to get to the point where I can do one chin up, then get a chin up bar at home so I can "grease the groove".

I'm loving AllPro and don't want to screw it up!

Thanks in advance.

the last 5 reps before failure are the quality reps for growth. You need about 20 of those suckers per week as a beginner.

So for your chinup thing, you need 1 overload day, which is unsustainable long term if you repeated it several times during the week. This is "heavy" day. You can follow that up with a few "sustainable" days that you think you could bang out daily if you had a gun to your head.

Also progressing on the row is really going to help you with chinups once your body weight starts getting back into normal range.

[nightanole]

Thanks again for replying, I have micro weights i purchased. They are usually just a conversation starter at the gym lol

If you don't mind, i had two further questions for you.
My cousin wants to start on the program to lose weight and build up a little strength. She is wondering if chest is a must on it, she has never done bench press before and was wondering if it is required and if it fits her goals.

My other cousin weighed 280lb when he started this program and he is right with me on his 4th cycle now. He weighs 230lb now and on the last cycle, he failed a few tests . He has been on a meal plan and on a good caloric deficit.
He feels discouraged after failing a few lifts on his last test and isn't sure if he should keep doing this as the failing might continue as he sheds more weight. Should he continue doing this if weight loss is his main goal?

Thanks once again dude

"2 presses in different directions is a must". OHP and assisted dip would work. OHP and floor press would work. Etc.

As for your other cousin, Im amazed he made it 4 cycles before failing a lift. Normally his goal would be to just not miss lifts till after 10 rep week, and focus on weight loss. That is the canary in the coal mine for "cutters". If they can at least get through 10 rep week, they have not reduced nutrition to the point that performance is affected, and are not losing muscle mass.

I will tell you that when folks start buckin close to 300lbs, i have the start with just the 45lb bar for squats, and just tell them at any weight lost should be added to the bar. This means that if they lose 100lbs, they are now 200lbs squatting 145lbs for reps, and when they finish out and get down to 175lbs ish, now they are squatting body weight. That sounds alot better than trying to do the 10% progression thing.

[Vyprath]

What about for warming up my knee for squats?

Also, when I do SLDL I get a weird feeling in both of my outer abductors (although primarily right one) when pulling up from the bottom of the movement, it’s an uncomfortable feeling not so much a pain.

What’s the best way to increase my strength in pull ups? Will be using an assisted machine. Do you recommend I just do assisted with the same weight each session and increase reps or?

Thanks again

Bump