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  1. #6541
    Registered User Vyprath's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    muscle is 900 cals a pound
    fat is 3500 per pound

    It will take 1200-1800 cals to make a pound of "new muscle" vs 900-1200 to get the muscle memory back.

    It will take "more" than 3500 to make a pound of fat, because you get "twitchier" if you up the cals. Ive thrown 250 cals at people, and they just get perky and dont gain weight, because they were kinda of under eating.
    Currently eating 2500 calories a day for 7 days to see how much my weight goes up. I will adjust accordingly to gain around 300g a week.
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  2. #6542
    Registered User xploid's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    As with the others, cut to BMI 23-24, then slow bulk to bmi 25.

    Cardio can be done on off days, or after the workout, or finished 4 hours before the workout.

    You have a weak lower back, so its more injury prone, and you have a doc that says do lower back strength training. So i dont know what to tell you. If you continue to favor the back, its just going to get weaker. At some point you might "throw it out" just getting a gallon of milk from the fridge.

    So do the SLDL and the bent over row with light starting weights till you get the form down and can do them pain free. Its not a race, its not like you have to get to body weight working weight within the next 180 days days or you lose your scholarship, you can take 2 years if you want.
    All right thank you very much for the info.

    On macros side how much protein,fat and carbs should I intake?


    What exactly do u mean by slow bulk, is like 10% more calories?
    Right now im eating around 2200-2400 calories and my weight is going down, so when i get to bmi of lets say 23 as u said, than should i up the calorie intake by 10%?
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  3. #6543
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xploid View Post
    All right thank you very much for the info.

    On macros side how much protein,fat and carbs should I intake?


    What exactly do u mean by slow bulk, is like 10% more calories?
    Right now im eating around 2200-2400 calories and my weight is going down, so when i get to bmi of lets say 23 as u said, than should i up the calorie intake by 10%?
    Starting cutting diet is 100g of fats/protein and 200-300g of carbs. if you are not losing .5-1% bw on that, you will need to up the cardio.

    And by slow bulk, i mean going up 1-2 bmi points over 5-7 cycles. how many calories that is is beyond this post. Rough est would be 1500 cals per pound gained, so if you have to gain 15lbs in 180 days, that is 125 cals daily?
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  4. #6544
    Registered User cljolley's Avatar
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    Hey Night, I’m a bit confused here. My lifts currently are:
    Squat:80lbs
    Bench:80
    Row:70
    Seated OHP:50
    Sldl:100
    Curl:50
    Calf Rs:100

    With my top three being so close in current weight it’s likely my squat will progress more quickly. Is this just a judgement call I will have to make each time I add weight? If I think I can add more than say 20 percent to a lift how would you go about doing that? I hope that makes sense and doesn’t sound silly. I just don’t want to add too much and then bury myself. I also have some pain in my hip returning from a previous condition/injury, so I’m trying not to overload that. I certainly don’t want to stop squatting because of it either. It’s rather minor pain, but noteworthy nonetheless. It doesn’t hurt to squat, only hurts if I raise my knee to my abdomen while standing, but I digress.
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  5. #6545
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cljolley View Post
    Hey Night, I’m a bit confused here. My lifts currently are:
    Squat:80lbs
    Bench:80
    Row:70
    Seated OHP:50
    Sldl:100
    Curl:50
    Calf Rs:100

    With my top three being so close in current weight it’s likely my squat will progress more quickly. Is this just a judgement call I will have to make each time I add weight? If I think I can add more than say 20 percent to a lift how would you go about doing that? I hope that makes sense and doesn’t sound silly. I just don’t want to add too much and then bury myself. I also have some pain in my hip returning from a previous condition/injury, so I’m trying not to overload that. I certainly don’t want to stop squatting because of it either. It’s rather minor pain, but noteworthy nonetheless. It doesn’t hurt to squat, only hurts if I raise my knee to my abdomen while standing, but I digress.
    If you want to bump more than 10%, try out the new weight on light day of test week for 1 set. If you can get in at least 10 reps, you are gold for starting the next cycle at the new weight. ideally squat should be 25-50% higher than your bench. However if you are well over 13% bf, well that alot of additional lard you have to move up and down vs the bench.
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  6. #6546
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Starting cutting diet is 100g of fats/protein and 200-300g of carbs. if you are not losing .5-1% bw on that, you will need to up the cardio.

    And by slow bulk, i mean going up 1-2 bmi points over 5-7 cycles. how many calories that is is beyond this post. Rough est would be 1500 cals per pound gained, so if you have to gain 15lbs in 180 days, that is 125 cals daily?

    I should eat 100g of fats and 100g of protein, isnt that alot of fat or did i misunderstand?

    I'll start with the cutting and this workout routine asap cant wait, and also when i go into slow bulk phase how much of each macros do u suggest roughly?

    Thanks for your time and all the replys!
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  7. #6547
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    Hey guys,
    I'm on first cycle and so far it has been great!

    I'm considering incline bench press instead of flat bench. I think I need to work a bit more on that upper chest area.

    Would you recommend it?

    So far I'm at 50 kgs on my week 5 on flat bench, thinking dropping to 40 kgs on incline on cycle 2/ week 5 and to keep up with it in the next months of course.

    Currently I'm on a calorie deficit with 16 % body fat, I've already lost 4 kgs in one month, this program combined with a good nutrition plan has helped a lot.

    Thanks
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  8. #6548
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xploid View Post
    I should eat 100g of fats and 100g of protein, isnt that alot of fat or did i misunderstand?

    I'll start with the cutting and this workout routine asap cant wait, and also when i go into slow bulk phase how much of each macros do u suggest roughly?

    Thanks for your time and all the replys!
    Its "mid fat" for a 2000 cal diet, its low fat for a 3000-4000 cal diet. Remember as the calories increase, carbs will go up at a much faster rate.

    If you think about it, and unsustainable bro diet of chicken/potatoes/brocilli is still 50g of fats. You might be able to get away with 50-75g of fats, if the fat comes from multiple sources, and not "added". Olive/coconut shots can not be used to maintain a low fat diet, fish/nuts/plants can be used to sustain a low fat diet.

    As for bulking macros, just up the carbs, the other 2 will naturally go up with it. So instead of 200g of carbs, do 300g, and if that is say just 150g of oatmeal a day, that will up protein by 20g, and fats by 10g, as an example.
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  9. #6549
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Oboy5 View Post
    Hey guys,
    I'm on first cycle and so far it has been great!

    I'm considering incline bench press instead of flat bench. I think I need to work a bit more on that upper chest area.

    Would you recommend it?

    So far I'm at 50 kgs on my week 5 on flat bench, thinking dropping to 40 kgs on incline on cycle 2/ week 5 and to keep up with it in the next months of course.

    Currently I'm on a calorie deficit with 16 % body fat, I've already lost 4 kgs in one month, this program combined with a good nutrition plan has helped a lot.

    Thanks
    Sorry bro cant do incline on this program. Its flat or decline only(or even dips). You can however do upright rows instead of curls, and you are OHP 3x a week, so upper chest (what ever the hell that is) is getting hit plenty.

    If anyone wants to send me a link to these magic upper and lower chest muscles, feel free to do so. Last time i checked humans just had pecs and delts. id love to see the data that says you can separate the pec major into 3 heads, and have 1-2 grow faster than the others.
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  10. #6550
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    If you want to bump more than 10%, try out the new weight on light day of test week for 1 set. If you can get in at least 10 reps, you are gold for starting the next cycle at the new weight. ideally squat should be 25-50% higher than your bench. However if you are well over 13% bf, well that alot of additional lard you have to move up and down vs the bench.
    Well I wouldn’t say well over 13% but slightly. So I’m theory my squat should simply start to catch up and overtake bench eventually?
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  11. #6551
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cljolley View Post
    Well I wouldn’t say well over 13% but slightly. So I’m theory my squat should simply start to catch up and overtake bench eventually?
    Yup.
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  12. #6552
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    Cool. This may also sound silly, but I am getting all four of my wisdom teeth extracted tomorrow morning, which is supposed to be my next workout day. Obviously that ain’t gonna happen. I worked out last night and don’t want to lose any progress, so would it be okay if I worked out this evening instead? And then took the weekend off?
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  13. #6553
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    Might be a silly question but I didn't see it anywhere. So one day or 48 hours between workout? So Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues, Thurs, Sat etc or Mon, Wed, Fri, Mon, Wed, Fri ?
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  14. #6554
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    Originally Posted by Southgeorge View Post
    Might be a silly question but I didn't see it anywhere. So one day or 48 hours between workout? So Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues, Thurs, Sat etc or Mon, Wed, Fri, Mon, Wed, Fri ?
    It is 3 days per week with a two day rest between weeks. So you are correct with: Mon,off,Wed,off,Friday,off,off. And then it repeats.
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  15. #6555
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    Originally Posted by Southgeorge View Post
    Might be a silly question but I didn't see it anywhere. So one day or 48 hours between workout? So Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues, Thurs, Sat etc or Mon, Wed, Fri, Mon, Wed, Fri ?
    48hrs between your heavy/medium.light days, usually Mon/Wed/Fri and at least 72hrs off before a heavy day, usually that would be Fri light - Mon heavy. Or if only doing 2 heavies a week 72hrs between ie Tue/Fri etc.

    *edit. A few people get confused thinking that working out on monday and then wednesday is only 1 day off. In fact its 48hrs. and same fri to monday is actually 72hrs.
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  16. #6556
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    Thanks for the answer guys!

    Originally Posted by Sqwatzhurtbad View Post
    *edit. A few people get confused thinking that working out on monday and then wednesday is only 1 day off. In fact its 48hrs. and same fri to monday is actually 72hrs.
    I guess it depends on when you workout but as long as you keep it consistent. Like Monday night then Wednesday night. But if you did Monday night then Wednesday morning it technically wouldn't be 48 hours?
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  17. #6557
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    Originally Posted by Southgeorge View Post
    Thanks for the answer guys!



    I guess it depends on when you workout but as long as you keep it consistent. Like Monday night then Wednesday night. But if you did Monday night then Wednesday morning it technically wouldn't be 48 hours?
    Meh the only hard and fast rule is 72 hours rest before any heavy. In a crunch alot of people will butt medium and light day back to back.
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  18. #6558
    Registered User xploid's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Its "mid fat" for a 2000 cal diet, its low fat for a 3000-4000 cal diet. Remember as the calories increase, carbs will go up at a much faster rate.

    If you think about it, and unsustainable bro diet of chicken/potatoes/brocilli is still 50g of fats. You might be able to get away with 50-75g of fats, if the fat comes from multiple sources, and not "added". Olive/coconut shots can not be used to maintain a low fat diet, fish/nuts/plants can be used to sustain a low fat diet.

    As for bulking macros, just up the carbs, the other 2 will naturally go up with it. So instead of 200g of carbs, do 300g, and if that is say just 150g of oatmeal a day, that will up protein by 20g, and fats by 10g, as an example.
    Thanks for all the replies and your time!
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  19. #6559
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Sorry bro cant do incline on this program. Its flat or decline only(or even dips). You can however do upright rows instead of curls, and you are OHP 3x a week, so upper chest (what ever the hell that is) is getting hit plenty.

    If anyone wants to send me a link to these magic upper and lower chest muscles, feel free to do so. Last time i checked humans just had pecs and delts. id love to see the data that says you can separate the pec major into 3 heads, and have 1-2 grow faster than the others.
    Thanks for the reply!

    By upper chest, some "internet literature" seems to be referring to it as the clavicle head.
    This is true that OHP would train this area better though, I'm still on 20 kg (bar weight) for the moment so the progress is quite slow.

    Another question (probably already asked). I'm gonna be away for a week out of the gym during christmas, would you recommend to do all possible exercises without weight during this time and continue to the next level after the week? So if I'm at 9 reps on week 2, but have to skip week 3, just continue with 10 reps on week 4? Kind of silly question but I wanna make sure I don't miss anything here.
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  20. #6560
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Oboy5 View Post
    Thanks for the reply!

    By upper chest, some "internet literature" seems to be referring to it as the clavicle head.
    This is true that OHP would train this area better though, I'm still on 20 kg (bar weight) for the moment so the progress is quite slow.

    Another question (probably already asked). I'm gonna be away for a week out of the gym during christmas, would you recommend to do all possible exercises without weight during this time and continue to the next level after the week? So if I'm at 9 reps on week 2, but have to skip week 3, just continue with 10 reps on week 4? Kind of silly question but I wanna make sure I don't miss anything here.
    If you are away for a week or 2, reset to 9 rep week, since that is the start of the ramp. If you are gone for 3-4 weeks, you extend the cycle to 6 weeks and have a 7 rep week to get your sea legs back.

    It takes months to lose even a pound of muscle, but conditioning and strength drop off massively. If you were on a 3x5 and close to a deload, took 4 weeks off and came back, the working weight would pin you on the first rep.
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  21. #6561
    Registered User Vyprath's Avatar
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    How much protein is actually required to gain muscle on a bulk? Is it 0.8g/lb 1g/lb?

    Also how can I ensure that when I go on a cut I only lose body fat and not muscle?
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  22. #6562
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    Originally Posted by Vyprath View Post
    How much protein is actually required to gain muscle on a bulk? Is it 0.8g/lb 1g/lb?

    Also how can I ensure that when I go on a cut I only lose body fat and not muscle?
    Son, i have bad news for you...

    For protein, its about a fixed amount regardless of a bulk/cut. For someone 5.8-6.2, its about 100g, so thats how i have the starting diet. If you have the worlds best top shelf protein in terms of bioavalibilty and profile, you could go down to 75g. Like wise if you have dirt protein from just one source, or are a vegetarian that never bothered to look up how to make a correct amino acid profile using food combos, it could be 125g.

    The reason for this is your "protein" needs to cover the essental amino acid profile, and some of the rarer(they just need to be present to stimulate hypertrophy, they are not made into muscle, they are just oxidized at some point) "required" amino acids. The good thing is that all other amino acids can be made "very" easily out of your carbs. And those non essentials are the majority of your muscle. a pound of human muscle only has like 120-150g of protein.

    I laugh at the 200-300g protein 3500 cal diets. Protein is the worst fuel to perform on, and your poor body has to kick off the nitrogen atom(which is expensive to do) to convert it to a hard to use carb, to break down into atp to be used by the muscles. Its an extra 2-3 steps vs just breaking down a carb. And since you will only be using 25-50g of protein per day, the rest must have that nitrogen atom kicked off, and then the rest oxidized, and then it leaves the body.

    Ok now that im off my soap box, for home work read up on what college athletes are fed for peek performance so they dont lose their scolarships.


    As for assuring you dont lose muscle and only fat. You need drugs, lots of drugs. Else unless you are very fat, you will start losing about 1 pound of muscle per 4-5lbs of fat once you are are in the lower teens of body fat levels. This also means that you will gain 3-4 pounds of muscle for every 1 pound of fat, when you are lean bulking. A dirty bulk is 2lbs of muscle and 1lb of fat. This is why i always recommend that you be going up or down around 1kg per cycle. Recomps never work for natties.

    On allpro we also have the canary in the coal mine for cutters. Its called 10 rep week. If you are missing reps on week 3, you are cutting too deep to perform, and will be losing an above average amount of muscle vs fat, over time.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    YEZZZ now we are getting to the scary section of the program

    1) See if you can do 290 for 10 for 1 set on light day. If you get at least 7, id say switch to novice and start next cycle@290 with with 4 reps for 3 sets, since you are having the gasing problem. Test day will still be 24 reps total, you just get that extra 90 seconds of rest.

    2) Like the bench, if it touches the chest it counts. Now if you are head bobbing more than an inch, i wouldnt count. Once things get heavy, its going to be just momentum to get to the chest, you will never be able to hold it there and squeeze. Like wise when things get heavy, if you dont pull your guts out at the start you wont be able to build up the momentum fast enough to hit the chest.

    3) Id do farmer carries with the trap bar. Odds are 50-75% of your "squat" weight, should keep you in the 20-30m range. If you are over or under that, add or remove weight. Id start off with 1 set twice a week, so you dont weaken the grip for the allpro workout.
    Night,

    When you recommend the 1 set at the heavier weight on light day, is this in place of the 2 light sets, or in addition to them? And is it put at the end of the workout?
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    Originally Posted by bjw11180 View Post
    Night,

    When you recommend the 1 set at the heavier weight on light day, is this in place of the 2 light sets, or in addition to them? And is it put at the end of the workout?
    The "test" is 1 set, replacing the 2 light sets. Do the workout in the normal order, you are not testing at the end.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Son, i have bad news for you...

    For protein, its about a fixed amount regardless of a bulk/cut. For someone 5.8-6.2, its about 100g, so thats how i have the starting diet. If you have the worlds best top shelf protein in terms of bioavalibilty and profile, you could go down to 75g. Like wise if you have dirt protein from just one source, or are a vegetarian that never bothered to look up how to make a correct amino acid profile using food combos, it could be 125g.

    The reason for this is your "protein" needs to cover the essental amino acid profile, and some of the rarer(they just need to be present to stimulate hypertrophy, they are not made into muscle, they are just oxidized at some point) "required" amino acids. The good thing is that all other amino acids can be made "very" easily out of your carbs. And those non essentials are the majority of your muscle. a pound of human muscle only has like 120-150g of protein.

    I laugh at the 200-300g protein 3500 cal diets. Protein is the worst fuel to perform on, and your poor body has to kick off the nitrogen atom(which is expensive to do) to convert it to a hard to use carb, to break down into atp to be used by the muscles. Its an extra 2-3 steps vs just breaking down a carb. And since you will only be using 25-50g of protein per day, the rest must have that nitrogen atom kicked off, and then the rest oxidized, and then it leaves the body.

    Ok now that im off my soap box, for home work read up on what college athletes are fed for peek performance so they dont lose their scolarships.


    As for assuring you dont lose muscle and only fat. You need drugs, lots of drugs. Else unless you are very fat, you will start losing about 1 pound of muscle per 4-5lbs of fat once you are are in the lower teens of body fat levels. This also means that you will gain 3-4 pounds of muscle for every 1 pound of fat, when you are lean bulking. A dirty bulk is 2lbs of muscle and 1lb of fat. This is why i always recommend that you be going up or down around 1kg per cycle. Recomps never work for natties.

    On allpro we also have the canary in the coal mine for cutters. Its called 10 rep week. If you are missing reps on week 3, you are cutting too deep to perform, and will be losing an above average amount of muscle vs fat, over time.
    So after gaining 6kg of muscle you recommend me cutting down 1kg of fat?
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    Originally Posted by Vyprath View Post
    So after gaining 6kg of muscle you recommend me cutting down 1kg of fat?
    Assuming you are perfect man and can gain 5kg of muscle and only 1kg of fat.

    Generally i recommend people cut down to bmi 23 while learning the lifts and increasing conditioning, the slow bulk to bmi 25 over 6-9 months, then cut 6-8 weeks back down to bmi 24, then reevaluate. The only time i dont recommend this is if you are under weight at 20-21 BMI. Even if you are still growing, it still applies, as you add inches to your frame, your bmi will be going down, so you will be chasing it up.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    The "test" is 1 set, replacing the 2 light sets. Do the workout in the normal order, you are not testing at the end.
    Well I managed 10 x 290. Not sure if I could've done an 11th rep. So I guess I'll switch to the novice pattern and take 290 as my new heavy day weight. Do I follow the 3-set pattern on medium and light days as well?
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Assuming you are perfect man and can gain 5kg of muscle and only 1kg of fat.

    Generally i recommend people cut down to bmi 23 while learning the lifts and increasing conditioning, the slow bulk to bmi 25 over 6-9 months, then cut 6-8 weeks back down to bmi 24, then reevaluate. The only time i dont recommend this is if you are under weight at 20-21 BMI. Even if you are still growing, it still applies, as you add inches to your frame, your bmi will be going down, so you will be chasing it up.
    Well my BMI is 20 and I’m about to hit 16, so I am still growing. I will/am doing a lean bulk for at least 6 cycles, depending on how much fat I gain.
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    Originally Posted by bjw11180 View Post
    Well I managed 10 x 290. Not sure if I could've done an 11th rep. So I guess I'll switch to the novice pattern and take 290 as my new heavy day weight. Do I follow the 3-set pattern on medium and light days as well?
    Yes medium and light days also 3 sets.

    Personally you may want to bump it to 300-310. Just as there is a 10 rep test, which is mid between 8 and 12, with the other pattern there is a 6 rep test, which is mid between 4 and 8. It is up to you, it will get scary going forward, its why the program normally ends at those numbers i post, because the bumps start getting massive. If you do 290 then it will be and easy test day, and that means the next cycle will be a 320 working weight or more
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    Originally Posted by Vyprath View Post
    Well my BMI is 20 and I’m about to hit 16, so I am still growing. I will/am doing a lean bulk for at least 6 cycles, depending on how much fat I gain.
    Pro tip, humans cant convert carbs to fat storage at an appreciable rate, just grams per day. So the only fat you can gain, is the fat you eat, not the carbs and not the protein. So just treat your fat and protein intake like vitamins. You need a certain amount to be healthy. Read up on fats and adjust your diet to get the profile you need.

    But hey who i am to know, you may be one of those teens who start growing so fast they need 2 shots of olive oil mixed with a bit of orange juice just to get in enough calories to maintain weight. A quick 900 cal snack, LOL.


    Personally, i have teens bulking on this stuff:

    https://shop.honeyville.com/6-grain-rolled-cereal.html

    $55 shipped, about 950 servings of 3g protein, 17g carbs, .5g fats. If you do round math, eat the bag over 6-12 months and you get about 3000g of protein, 17000g of carbs, and only 500g of fat. Its the cheapest good 75,000 calories you are going to get, and its ready to serve in about 3-5min with some hot water.

    Im eating 100g (dry) of it 5 days week at work, its a quick 320 cal breakfast.
    Last edited by nightanole; 12-08-2018 at 07:42 PM.
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