AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[Snaketaku]

I have attatched a jpeg which contains a table and two graphs that illustrate my progress in both kg and lbs.

A few comments regarding the progress:
- Dropped weight going from DL to SLDL between cycle 4 and 5 (yeah I know, don't mess with the program)
- Dropped weight on curls switching from EZ-bar to straight bar between cycle 4 and 5

My stats:
- Male
- 31 years old
- 176 cm (5′9″) tall
- Went from 76 kg (167 lbs) to 84 kg (185 lbs) bodyweight doing this program from july to december
- Currently going through the 7th cycle (squat is killing me)

Questions:

1) I often fail on test day - just take a look at my progress table. Anyone else recognize this experience, or am I an outlier?

2) I keep reading this is a program for 7 or 8 cycles. However, I'm struggling hitting that goal squat of 1.5 x bodyweight and bench of 1 x bodyweight. I have been eating at a surplus (+300 to 400 kcal for a total of around 2500 kcal each day - 80 g fat, 160 g protein, rest g carbs) and have gained 8 kg (17 lbs) of bodyweight. Should I keep doing this program unchanged until I do hit squat 1.5 bw and bench 1 x bw?

3) I am worried I gained too much bodyweight since july. BF % is difficult to estimate on abs because of extra skin (one of many "gifts" from having once been obese). Best guess is a BF % change from 13-14 % to 15-16 % since july. What is your opinion? Time to cut?

4) I don't feel a lot stronger than I did in the beginning, and physically (judging by personal progress photos) I haven't gained much muscle. This is of course frustrating, and I think it may have something to do with my lack of quality sleep. I don't get any good sleep because of a (harmless) physical condition that wakes me up every few hours, as well as my small kids that also require my help a few times each night. I'd say, any given night I'm awake doing things around 3-6 times in a period of 7-8 hours. It simply cannot be helped. Could this really be holding me back and explain why my progress is the way it is?

5) Is it possible, that I recover at a slower than average rate and could therefore benefit from staying on this program for more cycles than 8?


Any suggestions, insights or comments are greatly appreciated.

[munichveteran]

I think I've gone too heavy in to cycle 3 on my floor press. It's a 55% increase, which is obviously aggressive, but my 10 rep test of the weight felt solid and I also started cycle 1 way too light.

Anyway, today was week 1 Heavy day, and I can't imagine making it to 12 reps.

Do I adjust the weight back down and go with a more conservative 25% increase? Or persevere with the weight I selected?

[nightanole]

I think I've gone too heavy in to cycle 3 on my floor press. It's a 55% increase, which is obviously aggressive, but my 10 rep test of the weight felt solid and I also started cycle 1 way too light.

Anyway, today was week 1 Heavy day, and I can't imagine making it to 12 reps.

Do I adjust the weight back down and go with a more conservative 25% increase? Or persevere with the weight I selected?

8 rep week should feel like you have 2 left in the tank. If it doesnt dial it back 5-10lbs. You can not work at or near failure on this program, it robs way too much recovery.

[nightanole]

I have attatched a jpeg which contains a table and two graphs that illustrate my progress in both kg and lbs.

A few comments regarding the progress:
- Dropped weight going from DL to SLDL between cycle 4 and 5 (yeah I know, don't mess with the program)
- Dropped weight on curls switching from EZ-bar to straight bar between cycle 4 and 5

My stats:
- Male
- 31 years old
- 176 cm (5′9″) tall
- Went from 76 kg (167 lbs) to 84 kg (185 lbs) bodyweight doing this program from july to december
- Currently going through the 7th cycle (squat is killing me)

Questions:

1) I often fail on test day - just take a look at my progress table. Anyone else recognize this experience, or am I an outlier?

2) I keep reading this is a program for 7 or 8 cycles. However, I'm struggling hitting that goal squat of 1.5 x bodyweight and bench of 1 x bodyweight. I have been eating at a surplus (+300 to 400 kcal for a total of around 2500 kcal each day - 80 g fat, 160 g protein, rest g carbs) and have gained 8 kg (17 lbs) of bodyweight. Should I keep doing this program unchanged until I do hit squat 1.5 bw and bench 1 x bw?

3) I am worried I gained too much bodyweight since july. BF % is difficult to estimate on abs because of extra skin (one of many "gifts" from having once been obese). Best guess is a BF % change from 13-14 % to 15-16 % since july. What is your opinion? Time to cut?

4) I don't feel a lot stronger than I did in the beginning, and physically (judging by personal progress photos) I haven't gained much muscle. This is of course frustrating, and I think it may have something to do with my lack of quality sleep. I don't get any good sleep because of a (harmless) physical condition that wakes me up every few hours, as well as my small kids that also require my help a few times each night. I'd say, any given night I'm awake doing things around 3-6 times in a period of 7-8 hours. It simply cannot be helped. Could this really be holding me back and explain why my progress is the way it is?

5) Is it possible, that I recover at a slower than average rate and could therefore benefit from staying on this program for more cycles than 8?


Any suggestions, insights or comments are greatly appreciated.

Ill make a longer reply tomorrow, but here are a few things. You are gaining waaay to much weight. One of the reasons why you cant hit your goals, its your too dam heavy. Let me put it in perspective. A world champion body builder of your your height will will weigh 195 @ 10% in the off season, on gear. He will be competing at 6% at 180lbs or lower. Those stats you posted are what i hit at 148lbs and im 5.10. You have put on 7-10lbs of muscle, but you need to cut about 20lbs of fat. If you can cut down to 13% like the program suggests, then like me, you will be hitting your lifting ratios you want, and you will look good.

Think about it another way, Candito is like 5.7-8 and 155, 10 years of lifting, and just hit his lifetime goal of 2x bw bench.

[Snaketaku]

Ill make a longer reply tomorrow, but here are a few things. You are gaining waaay to much weight. One of the reasons why you cant hit your goals, its your too dam heavy. Let me put it in perspective. A world champion body builder of your your height will will weigh 195 @ 10% in the off season, on gear. He will be competing at 6% at 180lbs or lower. Those stats you posted are what i hit at 148lbs and im 5.10. You have put on 7-10lbs of muscle, but you need to cut about 20lbs of fat. If you can cut down to 13% like the program suggests, then like me, you will be hitting your lifting ratios you want, and you will look good.

Think about it another way, Candito is like 5.7-8 and 155, 10 years of lifting, and just hit his lifetime goal of 2x bw bench.

Thank you for the quick reply! This already has me thinking and any further thoughts from you will surely be of great value to me (and maybe others?).

[nightanole]

Thank you for the quick reply! This already has me thinking and any further thoughts from you will surely be of great value to me (and maybe others?).

Well you have a few choices
run allpro for another 3 cycles, with the aim of at least completing all the reps on 10 rep week so you dont loose strength/mass
run allpro auto regulated:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1376160513
Run Greyskull LP 3x5
or run the cutting version of ICF 5x5 (which turns into a 3x5)


You can increase weight on the bar till around tensed abs. However you are going to need to get down to at least 165lbs to see definition, if not 155lbs for 11%.

You just made the mistake alot of beginners make of bulking way too soon to get your "n00b" gains. Bulking is oscillating between 10-15% BF, a beginner shouldnt bulk at the start unless they have a bmi of 18-19. Most people are skinny fat or fat fat, and can make gains just fine bulking off their spare tire.

[munichveteran]

Nightanole, what does an "average" meal prep look like for you? What types of foods and portions should we be consuming on a daily basis to give the best chance of success on All-Pro?

[nightanole]

Nightanole, what does an "average" meal prep look like for you? What types of foods and portions should we be consuming on a daily basis to give the best chance of success on All-Pro?

100 grams of fats/protein and 200-300 grams of carbs, and a weight goal of getting to tensed abs before the end of the program.

My main staples are eggs,dairy,chicken breasts,potatoes,rice, and oats. Fats are handled with olive/coconut oil for cooking/dressing ,and some real butter. Im not a fan of veg oil. Greens have little to no calories/macros(i dont even count them) so you can eat a tonne, and they are were most of your micros will come from.

If didnt have to eat with other humans i would hands down do the 5-7 day meal preps of just plastic tubs of preweighed food.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/your...ipe-guide.html

That is a really good article for a few preps.

[Marwan4449]

Hey man I dont think this is probably the thread to post this here but I dont know anyone that knows much as u do so...
I calculated my bmr using Katch-McArdle from the thread you posted and I multiplied it by 1.6 and I got 2625 calorie per day
Now I think that is a little bit more than what I expected. My weight is 73.5 and I think im around 20 or 18% bodyfat ( using US navy method that uses a measurement tape) and im 172 cm if that matters and I work 10 hours a day devided in 2 shifts (3 hours from 9 am to 12 pm - 7 hours from 4pm to 11 pm and then I go to gym from 12 am to 1 am and do 1 hour of jogging on off days) My job demands standing but not lifting heavy stuff or walking too much. Why I asked is because I suck at maths and im not sure I calculated correctly. I did try for an hour and I think I got it right but the number somehow feel alot, I thought I would be around 2200 ish calories per day but I could be wrong. Any help would be much appreciated

[nightanole]

Hey man I dont think this is probably the thread to post this here but I dont know anyone that knows much as u do so...
I calculated my bmr using Katch-McArdle from the thread you posted and I multiplied it by 1.6 and I got 2625 calorie per day
Now I think that is a little bit more than what I expected. My weight is 73.5 and I think im around 20 or 18% bodyfat ( using US navy method that uses a measurement tape) and im 172 cm if that matters and I work 10 hours a day devided in 2 shifts (3 hours from 9 am to 12 pm - 7 hours from 4pm to 11 pm and then I go to gym from 12 am to 1 am and do 1 hour of jogging on off days) My job demands standing but not lifting heavy stuff or walking too much. Why I asked is because I suck at maths and im not sure I calculated correctly. I did try for an hour and I think I got it right but the number somehow feel alot, I thought I would be around 2200 ish calories per day but I could be wrong. Any help would be much appreciated

All internet calcs for calories burned are wrong. They all say you need to be eating 25% more just to maintain. Just get in your min 100g of fat/protein and adjust carbs as needed. If you are maintaining weight now then just takea food log for a week or 2 and now you have your TDEE while on allpro and you can adjust from there.

[Lelant0s]

Earlier in this thread you told me that this routine is meant to be run on a cut till 13% bf however I feel I currently possess very little muscle why would I cut?

[JDMbarista]

All reboots due to taking a week or so off should be to start over at 9 reps. If you want to do a complete reset of the program you can just take 2 days off and do a 10 rep test again.

As Sh said, its time to start shopping for another lifting pattern. You might get another 2-3 cycles depending if you switch to novice or still have some 10% gains left. No one does allpro for a year unless its for weight loss.

Which programs do you recommend to move on to? I've been lagging on planning this out due to the holidays.

[nightanole]

Earlier in this thread you told me that this routine is meant to be run on a cut till 13% bf however I feel I currently possess very little muscle why would I cut?

Because you can progress just as fast as a bulk, because you are bulking off your gut. For others its also a psychological thing, 6 months of no progress, nope you are just too fat to see 5-7lbs of muscle.

Same rules for the last 4 decades of lifting, bulk if you are under 11%, cut if you are over 15%.

Which programs do you recommend to move on to? I've been lagging on planning this out due to the holidays.

You want something slow and auto regulated. The best program to date is beyond 5/3/1. After that you have the dead simple greyskull LP. And if you want to dabble in full auto regulation, check out programmingtowin (its free ebook).

[Snaketaku]

Ill make a longer reply tomorrow, but here are a few things. You are gaining waaay to much weight. One of the reasons why you cant hit your goals, its your too dam heavy. Let me put it in perspective. A world champion body builder of your your height will will weigh 195 @ 10% in the off season, on gear. He will be competing at 6% at 180lbs or lower. Those stats you posted are what i hit at 148lbs and im 5.10. You have put on 7-10lbs of muscle, but you need to cut about 20lbs of fat. If you can cut down to 13% like the program suggests, then like me, you will be hitting your lifting ratios you want, and you will look good.

Think about it another way, Candito is like 5.7-8 and 155, 10 years of lifting, and just hit his lifetime goal of 2x bw bench.

Let me just try and figure this out here. Help me out if the following is wrong:

So the reasoning is, that if I lost 20 lbs of fat during a cut in the next 3 cycles, I would be lifting the same weight as now WHILE ADDING those 20 lbs of fat that I will have lost TO MY working weight?

I would then be squatting my current squat weight of 198 lbs + 20 lbs = 218 lbs. And my bodyweight would be 165 lbs and my goal of squat 1.5 x bw would be 247 lbs instead of 277 lbs. That in turn means I would be squatting for around 1.3 x bw instead of 1.07 x bw which is what I'm currently at.

I can definetly see your point about being much closer to actually graduating. Very good insight! I definetly did not consider how much of a difference this actually makes before going through the numbers (if they are correct, that is).

You mention that this (extra weight) is one of the reasons I am not hitting my goals. If you can think of more reasons, I would love to know more about them.

[nightanole]

Let me just try and figure this out here. Help me out if the following is wrong:

So the reasoning is, that if I lost 20 lbs of fat during a cut in the next 3 cycles, I would be lifting the same weight as now WHILE ADDING those 20 lbs of fat that I will have lost TO MY working weight?

I would then be squatting my current squat weight of 198 lbs + 20 lbs = 218 lbs. And my bodyweight would be 165 lbs and my goal of squat 1.5 x bw would be 247 lbs instead of 277 lbs. That in turn means I would be squatting for around 1.3 x bw instead of 1.07 x bw which is what I'm currently at.

I can definetly see your point about being much closer to actually graduating. Very good insight! I definetly did not consider how much of a difference this actually makes before going through the numbers (if they are correct, that is).

You mention that this (extra weight) is one of the reasons I am not hitting my goals. If you can think of more reasons, I would love to know more about them.

+20-20 plan:

This is a 90-120 day plan to have you graduate allpro beginner with a 10 rep bw bench and a 1.5x bw squat working weight.

Switch squats to allpro auto regulated, switch squats to 218lbs and if you want you can increase rest time to 2min. If you get less than 9 reps total in the first 2 sets, rest for 30 seconds, and pound out another rep or 2.
Switch bench to allpro novice (3 sets of 4-8 reps, same 90 second rest and heavy/medium/light pattern), switch bench to 160lbs.

The end goal is to get your bw down to 160-165lbs while adding 15-20lbs to your squat/bench. Squats will be alot easier than bench. Bench will kick your arse, which is why we are keeping with allpro. Your goal for the next 2 cycles on bench is to at least get all the reps in on week 3. Odds are you will only be increasing yours strength 3.33-5% per cycle, so its going to take 2 cycles to pass.

So over all you will be working with your goal weight the entire time, and focusing on increasing reps while decreasing bw. God speed.


This is a 90-120 day plan

[Snaketaku]

+20-20 plan:

This is a 90-120 day plan to have you graduate allpro beginner with a 10 rep bw bench and a 1.5x bw squat working weight.

Switch squats to allpro auto regulated, switch squats to 218lbs and if you want you can increase rest time to 2min. If you get less than 9 reps total in the first 2 sets, rest for 30 seconds, and pound out another rep or 2.
Switch bench to allpro novice (3 sets of 4-8 reps, same 90 second rest and heavy/medium/light pattern), switch bench to 160lbs.

The end goal is to get your bw down to 160-165lbs while adding 15-20lbs to your squat/bench. Squats will be alot easier than bench. Bench will kick your arse, which is why we are keeping with allpro. Your goal for the next 2 cycles on bench is to at least get all the reps in on week 3. Odds are you will only be increasing yours strength 3.33-5% per cycle, so its going to take 2 cycles to pass.

So over all you will be working with your goal weight the entire time, and focusing on increasing reps while decreasing bw. God speed.


This is a 90-120 day plan

This is just perfect! Thank you so much, nightanole. This is the plan I will follow. Your dedication to helping out people on this program is truly commendable!

[WillGrow]

Hello, I have a question, I have heritage discs in my lower back, so I was wondering if there are any alternatives that I could put in this routine for these exercises "Squats, Bent-Over Rows, Stiff-Legged Deadlifts", something that wouldn't put so much pressure on my lower back. I will work additionally to strengthen my core, but it would be nice if I could have an advice on how to replace these, with something less tension on my back.

[nightanole]

Hello, I have a question, I have heritage discs in my lower back, so I was wondering if there are any alternatives that I could put in this routine for these exercises "Squats, Bent-Over Rows, Stiff-Legged Deadlifts", something that wouldn't put so much pressure on my lower back. I will work additionally to strengthen my core, but it would be nice if I could have an advice on how to replace these, with something less tension on my back.

You would have to talk to a therapist or sports rehab specialist to figure out what you can and can not do. We have people squatting with fused verts so anything is possible. It might be something as simple as angle of attack or simply just front squats.

I would start by practicing good mornings with a neutral spine and broom handle / plastic pipe for a bar. If bending over feels funny, you are not keeping a neutral spine, you are just flexing/relaxing your back.

[munichveteran]

I’m trying to map out my year, and give myself some performance landmarks to aim for.

As I understand it, the general rule of thumb on AllPro is to reach bodyweight for reps on bench press, and bodyweight x1.5 on squat.

I subbed in floor press and landmine squats, so I would have to be floor pressing 75lb dumbbells. I can’t imagine that ever happening, but granted I’m still in the mindset of a weakling. To progress to 75lbs from where I am today (30lb DB on Heavy day), I would have to go for 15% increases on some cycles, and it would take 9 cycles to reach a press of 150lbs.

Is this doable on the floor?

As for my squat, this would require a squat of 225lbs, but I’m using landmine, so I don’t believe the physics of the exercise is the same because the weight is all loaded on one side. Should I be using a different target weight for ‘graduation’? I’m currently landmine squatting 125lbs, so 225lbs is 7 cycles away.

I’m currently on cycle 3, so my long-term goal is to graduate AllPro after 10 or 11 cycles.

All in all, am I thinking about this correctly?

[nightanole]

I’m trying to map out my year, and give myself some performance landmarks to aim for.

As I understand it, the general rule of thumb on AllPro is to reach bodyweight for reps on bench press, and bodyweight x1.5 on squat.

I subbed in floor press and landmine squats, so I would have to be floor pressing 75lb dumbbells. I can’t imagine that ever happening, but granted I’m still in the mindset of a weakling. To progress to 75lbs from where I am today (30lb DB on Heavy day), I would have to go for 15% increases on some cycles, and it would take 9 cycles to reach a press of 150lbs.

Is this doable on the floor?

As for my squat, this would require a squat of 225lbs, but I’m using landmine, so I don’t believe the physics of the exercise is the same because the weight is all loaded on one side. Should I be using a different target weight for ‘graduation’? I’m currently landmine squatting 125lbs, so 225lbs is 7 cycles away.

I’m currently on cycle 3, so my long-term goal is to graduate AllPro after 10 or 11 cycles.

All in all, am I thinking about this correctly?

Floor presses are easier than bench, so its even easier to get to 1x bw. Squats anything goes, most dont make it to 1.5x bw on this program, but that is the guide post on when the program stops being effective.

When the 2 sets get easy and you feel you can do heavies 3x a week, yet 10% bumps are impossible, that is que to switch to a higher volume slower progression program. Allpro ramps up incredibly fast at the end (2 cycles to go from 225-275) which why thre is a hard stop.

This might seem like a cop out, but everyone is built different. Some 5.10 people rip pecs at less than 200lbs for 3 reps, others end up repping out 350lbs within 5 years. Hell muscle insertions in the legs can affect 30% of the torque that can be applied.

And i dont recommend vanilla allpro beginner for more than 5-7 cycles unless you are using it for weight loss. This is only a 6-8 month program at best.

[DJmn]

And i dont recommend vanilla allpro beginner for more than 5-7 cycles unless you are using it for weight loss. This is only a 6-8 month program at best.

Could you post the links again for allpro intermediate and auto-regulated, I know they are in the thread but I have not been able to relocate them.

[nightanole]

Could you post the links again for allpro intermediate and auto-regulated, I know they are in the thread but I have not been able to relocate them.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=135025731

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1376160513

I cant really answer questions on intermediate, but most need to be cycled out every 2-3 cycles with other programs so you dont get burnt out. So you might have 3-4 programs a year you cycle through.

[Isa187]

Hey guys I've just finished my first cycle, I left quite low, I only bench like 20kg on heavy day and squat 15kg on heavy day rows 20kg too. Is this weight too low to make any gains strength and mass? The reason I've been lifting light is because it's the first time doing those excrecise and wanted to focus on my form.

[nightanole]

Hey guys I've just finished my first cycle, I left quite low, I only bench like 20kg on heavy day and squat 15kg on heavy day rows 20kg too. Is this weight too low to make any gains strength and mass? The reason I've been lifting light is because it's the first time doing those excrecise and wanted to focus on my form.

You would have to be stopping 5 reps short of failure on the 2nd set for the exercise to not be effective, and even then you still would be using full ROM and re enforcing motor patterns.

The only down side to starting extremely light is that you can use inefficient form. The bar can move a lot farther from centerline without straining small muscles or causing you to lose balance. On OHP you can move the bar way too far forward, on squat the bar might end up over toes instead of mid foot, on bench you could hitting above the nipple line. You can get away with these things with an easy weight, but you wont be able to use a heavy weight.

If you are going to start with a very light weight to get form nailed down, i would pause for a few(5-10) seconds at the bottom of the squat, when the bar is at chest level on the bench, and the OHP when the bar is around your forehead. This will make the lift alot harder since it removes the stretch reflex. A 5 second pause will make the weight feel at least 10-15% heavier.

[Isa187]

Wow, thanks for the detailed post man will defo be doing all that when I'm next at the gym. Also I've read through a couple of pages of this thread, I've come across you saying you should use this program when cutting? Will it not be as effective for me as I am bulking? I also weigh 149lbs and at about 19-20% BF

[KyleCFC]

Hi I read earlier in the thread that of the weight for my warm up sets works out less than the weight of the barbell then I am to use dumbbells?

The issue is that I don't currently own any dumbbells yet and I don't want to join a gym at this time of year as it is like the royal rumble.... Is there any way round this or do I need to go out and buy some dumbbells?

[nightanole]

Wow, thanks for the detailed post man will defo be doing all that when I'm next at the gym. Also I've read through a couple of pages of this thread, I've come across you saying you should use this program when cutting? Will it not be as effective for me as I am bulking? I also weigh 149lbs and at about 19-20% BF

On allpro i recommend cutting till 13% (tensed abs). You can bulk just fine off your gut. Once you reach 13% you can decide to keep cutting if you can still progress, or start a 2-3lb per cycle bulk. But really bulking is for going from 10-15%, or from 13-18% if you are in strong man and have tensed abs at 15-16%.

Hi I read earlier in the thread that of the weight for my warm up sets works out less than the weight of the barbell then I am to use dumbbells?

The issue is that I don't currently own any dumbbells yet and I don't want to join a gym at this time of year as it is like the royal rumble.... Is there any way round this or do I need to go out and buy some dumbbells?

The first warmup can be a ROM warmup with just a broom or plastic pipe. After that you can just use the bar. I would also look around your gym, there should be 10-15lb training/technique bars. Honestly i know of a few gyms that only have 45lb bars, but when the 150lb men have trouble with 10 reps of the bar for OHP/bench, what hope does the 90-110lb women have...

[Marwan4449]

hey man i just installed a pull up bar in my house. are there any exercises i can do without affecting my performence on all pro in the gym
i still cant do pull ups and can hardly do 1 chin up. what do you suggest

[nightanole]

hey man i just installed a pull up bar in my house. are there any exercises i can do without affecting my performence on all pro in the gym
i still cant do pull ups and can hardly do 1 chin up. what do you suggest

1 close grip chin up every 2 hours, every day all day. If you want some grip work you can also try some timed dead hangs on off days, if you get more than 60 seconds add some weight.

[Marwan4449]

1 close grip chin up every 2 hours, every day all day. If you want some grip work you can also try some timed dead hangs on off days, if you get more than 60 seconds add some weight.

today was heavy day 10 reps week
it was very hard especially the bent over rows cuz my grip and forarms get fatigued way before my lats (around 6th rep) and then it feels really hard to pinch my plades at the top cuz its hard to keep the barbell at the top. i think i might lower the weight or keep it as it is for the next cycle. what do you think i should do
and is it mybe that i replaced the curls with upright rows that my grip doesnt get hit enough or they are just weak or is it normal
and the SLDL felt hard cuz of the fatigued grip but i managed to get through