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  1. #571
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by munichveteran View Post
    Yay for the side delts ! I had to google what they were, haha! Good to know, but I wish I could say that was intentional.

    I can strip 2-3lbs of fat easily enough, as I did a couple of times before. When you say center line of the abs…how does the attached compare? This is me at my leanest ever (137lbs).

    For the other exercises…do you recommend including these on AllPro days? Or on rest days? With the hanging leg raise, do you mean forearms (not triceps) parallel with floor? If that wasn’t a typo, how do I get my triceps parallel with the floor? I have one of these (pic attached) at my gym. Can I do this bent knee version for starters? I've tried this before, a while ago, and I believe my hip flexors were taking the brunt of the movement. I'll work on form to target my abs.
    I’ll also give the dips a go. Like the sound of growing the chest. Are we talking 2x8? Then 2x9? Follow the same weekly progression?
    April 2015 looks like 11-12% about 2-3lbs leaner than needed.

    This is the hanging leg raise to hit core and lats at the same time, if you can do them with bent knee, most beginners half rep straight leg so i dont even recomend them.




    As for progression that is based on how you respond, it could be as simple as 30 seconds of static holds directly after each workout. This is a cosmetic fix so reps/progression are harder to guess vs say lagging in the bench.
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  2. #572
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    Good afternoon everyone! Long time lurker...trying to get started (then do it already!!!...yeah, I know)

    I have been reading this thread for a while, and looks like folks are doing great with it! Excellent program!

    Me - 50 yr old, haven't worked out since getting out of the Navy 20 yrs ago, and wasn't strong then (typical bench and curls, NEVER legs)...so I now have the chicken leg syndrome, along with the (occasional) beer belly...looking to fix that, and definitely not interested in the treadmill or P90X/Crossfit schtuff....nuff said. I want to lift (within reason of being a beginner 50yr who has broken his back twice). Dang that motocross...

    Anyway, I am fortunate enough to be a stay at home husband (yup, I am a spoiled man)....so I have a pretty flexible schedule...wondering if:

    Use the exact same exercises and progression scheme and split it into 3 upper and 3 lower days....Yup, I have 6 days a week to workout....

    So, why not go with a higher volume/intensity program? Why not stick with the damn program the way it is written? Well, recovery for me, and can't handle the volume yet...tried and failed. Not in bad shape, just like many others, I hit it day one looking for PRs, find them, and can't walk for a few days afterwards...

    So, definitely not trying to be one of the folks that tries to change the program, but wondering if all variables stay the same, would the gainz be the same while controlling the total workout time each day?

    Thanks and I definitely am starting the program (going to start calculating 10RM today.
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  3. #573
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    So I think I might take this week off. Last week was week 2 of my 6th cycle and while I do feel and see progress I think the weight increase from the last cycle might have been too much, mainly on squats. I felt soreness in my lower back so maybe my form isn't the greatest. Our it might be that I did something wrong during deadlifts. Either way my question is do I pick up from continue on to week 3 or restart the cycle with an adjusted weight?
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  4. #574
    Registered User munichveteran's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    April 2015 looks like 11-12% about 2-3lbs leaner than needed.

    This is the hanging leg raise to hit core and lats at the same time, if you can do them with bent knee, most beginners half rep straight leg so i dont even recomend them.




    As for progression that is based on how you respond, it could be as simple as 30 seconds of static holds directly after each workout. This is a cosmetic fix so reps/progression are harder to guess vs say lagging in the bench.
    Woah. I have a pull up bar at home so I just tried the hanging leg raise. Got myself in the static hold with knees bent, and my abs failed within 2 seconds. Ouch.

    Had a few minutes rest then tried reps instead of static hold. Straight leg reps were impossible but managed 5 bent knee reps.

    It's clearly a weak spot, so this is a good move for me. How do I progress this?

    Am I aiming for static hold as long as possible in that position (progress = anything more than 2 seconds!)? Or should I aim for bent knee reps?
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  5. #575
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    Originally Posted by JDMbarista View Post
    So I think I might take this week off. Last week was week 2 of my 6th cycle and while I do feel and see progress I think the weight increase from the last cycle might have been too much, mainly on squats. I felt soreness in my lower back so maybe my form isn't the greatest. Our it might be that I did something wrong during deadlifts. Either way my question is do I pick up from continue on to week 3 or restart the cycle with an adjusted weight?
    You are at about the end of all pro, it's only meant for 5-6 cycles. Might be time to find a new program. After that many cycles UT gets hard to gain at the rate of weight increases
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  6. #576
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Radgeek View Post
    Good afternoon everyone! Long time lurker...trying to get started (then do it already!!!...yeah, I know)

    I have been reading this thread for a while, and looks like folks are doing great with it! Excellent program!

    Me - 50 yr old, haven't worked out since getting out of the Navy 20 yrs ago, and wasn't strong then (typical bench and curls, NEVER legs)...so I now have the chicken leg syndrome, along with the (occasional) beer belly...looking to fix that, and definitely not interested in the treadmill or P90X/Crossfit schtuff....nuff said. I want to lift (within reason of being a beginner 50yr who has broken his back twice). Dang that motocross...

    Anyway, I am fortunate enough to be a stay at home husband (yup, I am a spoiled man)....so I have a pretty flexible schedule...wondering if:

    Use the exact same exercises and progression scheme and split it into 3 upper and 3 lower days....Yup, I have 6 days a week to workout....

    So, why not go with a higher volume/intensity program? Why not stick with the damn program the way it is written? Well, recovery for me, and can't handle the volume yet...tried and failed. Not in bad shape, just like many others, I hit it day one looking for PRs, find them, and can't walk for a few days afterwards...

    So, definitely not trying to be one of the folks that tries to change the program, but wondering if all variables stay the same, would the gainz be the same while controlling the total workout time each day?

    Thanks and I definitely am starting the program (going to start calculating 10RM today.
    You could try splitting it up into 6 full body days of 1 set. So 2 heavy days, then 2 medium days, etc, should take about 25min. If a cycle of that does not get you ready for the real program, you just picked waaay to heavy of starting weights.
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  7. #577
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by munichveteran View Post
    Woah. I have a pull up bar at home so I just tried the hanging leg raise. Got myself in the static hold with knees bent, and my abs failed within 2 seconds. Ouch.

    Had a few minutes rest then tried reps instead of static hold. Straight leg reps were impossible but managed 5 bent knee reps.

    It's clearly a weak spot, so this is a good move for me. How do I progress this?

    Am I aiming for static hold as long as possible in that position (progress = anything more than 2 seconds!)? Or should I aim for bent knee reps?
    Only do bent knee versions. You dont have to worry about progression till you can static hold for 60 seconds, which looks like that could take till the end of the allpro program.

    I would start off with your 5 bent knee reps at the end of each workout. If it doesnt affect the progression of the core workout you could start doing additional sets on off days or several hours after allpro. You do not want to over do it and cause your core to cave during squats etc.
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  8. #578
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    You could try splitting it up into 6 full body days of 1 set. So 2 heavy days, then 2 medium days, etc, should take about 25min. If a cycle of that does not get you ready for the real program, you just picked waaay to heavy of starting weights.
    Thanks for the response. Will definitely give it a shot. Just making sure I wasn't overlooking something obvious with my thinking.
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  9. #579
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    Originally Posted by Sh724 View Post
    You are at about the end of all pro, it's only meant for 5-6 cycles. Might be time to find a new program. After that many cycles UT gets hard to gain at the rate of weight increases
    Should I finish this cycle up then continue on to the next one? Recalculate 1rm and set a starting weight for this cycle?
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  10. #580
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JDMbarista View Post
    Should I finish this cycle up then continue on to the next one? Recalculate 1rm and set a starting weight for this cycle?
    All reboots due to taking a week or so off should be to start over at 9 reps. If you want to do a complete reset of the program you can just take 2 days off and do a 10 rep test again.

    As Sh said, its time to start shopping for another lifting pattern. You might get another 2-3 cycles depending if you switch to novice or still have some 10% gains left. No one does allpro for a year unless its for weight loss.
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  11. #581
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Only do bent knee versions. You dont have to worry about progression till you can static hold for 60 seconds, which looks like that could take till the end of the allpro program.

    I would start off with your 5 bent knee reps at the end of each workout. If it doesnt affect the progression of the core workout you could start doing additional sets on off days or several hours after allpro. You do not want to over do it and cause your core to cave during squats etc.
    Tried this today. 5 bent knee reps went OK, so I took a minute rest did another set of 5. My form needs some work but I think I can add this to my routine. I can also knock out a few on my off days at home.

    Also tried the lean forward dips, and when I got to parallel I felt something not so great in my shoulder (clavicle area). My shoulder was the reason I switched from bench press to floor press (which helped). Regardless, I did 2 x 5 reps on dips, and it felt fine, I just don't know if I can go "deep" enough to target my chest. Thoughts?

    Last question...I read that it's difficult to progress chin ups with the assistance machine. Do you agree?

    I used to do unassisted chins before staring AllPro, and I was doing 2 sets of 5, then 1 set of 4 (could never get that 5th rep on the 3rd set). I switched to the machine when I started AllPro because it seemed to be more fitting with the Heavy, Light, Medium process, and also enabled me to get higher reps.

    Should I switch back to unassisted for cycle 3?

    If you recommend the assisted machine, I can also use the same machine for dips in order to get up to 8-12 reps.
    Last edited by munichveteran; 12-23-2015 at 05:15 AM.
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  12. #582
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    i have searched for this and found alot of different answers. how many calories and protein in half a chicken ( medium size) ???
    and not getting the amount i need of protein will affect muscle gain badly or what does acually do
    Last edited by Marwan4449; 12-23-2015 at 02:37 AM.
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  13. #583
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by munichveteran View Post
    Tried this today. 5 bent knee reps went OK, so I took a minute rest did another set of 5. My form needs some work but I think I can add this to my routine. I can also knock out a few on my off days at home.

    Also tried the lean forward dips, and when I got to parallel I felt something not so great in my shoulder (clavicle area). My shoulder was the reason I switched from bench press to floor press (which helped). Regardless, I did 2 x 5 reps on dips, and it felt fine, I just don't know if I can go "deep" enough to target my chest. Thoughts?

    Last question...I read that it's difficult to progress chin ups with the assistance machine. Do you agree?

    I used to do unassisted chins before staring AllPro, and I was doing 2 sets of 5, then 1 set of 4 (could never get that 5th rep on the 3rd set). I switched to the machine when I started AllPro because it seemed to be more fitting with the Heavy, Light, Medium process, and also enabled me to get higher reps.

    Should I switch back to unassisted for cycle 3?

    If you recommend the assisted machine, I can also use the same machine for dips in order to get up to 8-12 reps.
    If you cant handle dips, again try to lean forward with your legs out as much as possible, and aim for static holds of 60 seconds. Some of us are just not build for dips (some crack sternums). Its still safer on your shoulders vs the bench press (go ahead and flare your elbows on the dip :P) but if "more or less" full range dips feel back, just stop them.

    For chinups assisted is not the best for increasing reps, assisted is great for building muscle. To increase reps your best bet is negatives,twentypullups.com pattern, or doing half your max reps every hour you are awake (grease the groove method). I can get in 60 reps a day without affecting my squat/row with the grease the groove method.

    Right now im just messing a round with rest pause chinups. a set of 7, rest 15-20 seconds, a set of 3-4, rest 15-20 seconds, and a final set of 1-2.
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  14. #584
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Marwan4449 View Post
    i have searched for this and found alot of different answers. how many calories and protein in half a chicken ( medium size) ???
    and not getting the amount i need of protein will affect muscle gain badly or what does acually do
    99% of the time its a broiler chicken.
    http://www.nationalchickencouncil.or...ue-of-chicken/

    So about 25 grams of protein per 3.5oz of whole cooked chicken, and about 200 calories. calories change alot based on skin vs just breast meat.
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    i am on cycle2, week1. want to incorporate pull ups on off days. At the moment, I cant work to even 1 strict pull up. So want to work on negatives first. I workout M/W/F. Do you think pull ups on Tuesday and Thursday would reduce recovery? Or should I add it during the 1 or more of the workout days?
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    Thought I would check in after (about) a year on AllPro.

    I started a dumbbell-only version of the program last December, started with proper barbell setup in January, and started formally logging my progress in March '15. Here's the progress including the #'s I'll be starting with on my next heavy day, Cycle 9.

    Squats: 130 --> 205
    Bench: 90 --> 145
    Bent Row: 70 --> 115 (had been up to 135 but reset due to elbow issues)
    OHP: 60 --> 85
    SLDL: 140 --> 205
    Curls: 45 --> 55 (these had gone up to 70 but reset due to elbow issues)

    Weight went down from about 320 to 280, then I pretty much maintained/recomped. At first this wasn't deliberate, I was trying but failing to lose, then I deliberately focused on strength. I still went from a 44 to 40 waist size all while at 280. Now I'm mentally preparing myself for a cut, accepting that I might lose strength during that time.

    A few notes about my personal experience with AP:

    - 90 second breaks: Not gonna happen on squats/deads on heavy/medium days, especially in weeks 3-5, for a former smoker at my weight/age, unless I cut weight in half. Not so much for muscle recovery as time needed to catch my breath. On these, I make sure I am breathing at a normal rate again before 2nd work set. I don't want to pass out with 200+ on my shoulders. I'll improve this as I lose weight and focus more on cardiovascular endurance.
    - After a year, I might have considered moving on to something else, but now at the New Year I plan on tackling my extra weight with a much more aggressive calorie deficit, and my upper body #'s are still much lower than I'd like them to be. AP seems to be the best for cutting as well as more focused on upper body than the other programs. It's also one of the only ones that doesn't require equipment other than a barbell setup. But let me know if anyone has any ideas.
    My 5/3/1 Workout journal:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=166697011

    CAR ▂▃▅▆▇▇▆▅▃▂ DIO
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  17. #587
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    Originally Posted by saimadhav View Post
    i am on cycle2, week1. want to incorporate pull ups on off days. At the moment, I cant work to even 1 strict pull up. So want to work on negatives first. I workout M/W/F. Do you think pull ups on Tuesday and Thursday would reduce recovery? Or should I add it during the 1 or more of the workout days?
    I still recommend multiple negatives throughout the day, everyday. You may find chinups a better fit for allpro since only the curl is done palms up on the program.

    Originally Posted by JohnF68 View Post
    Thought I would check in after (about) a year on AllPro.


    - After a year, I might have considered moving on to something else, but now at the New Year I plan on tackling my extra weight with a much more aggressive calorie deficit, and my upper body #'s are still much lower than I'd like them to be. AP seems to be the best for cutting as well as more focused on upper body than the other programs. It's also one of the only ones that doesn't require equipment other than a barbell setup. But let me know if anyone has any ideas.
    I would try out auto regulated 3-4 days a week. This way you can progress at your own pace and can correct your diet if you start to get progressively weaker instead of maintaining.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1376160513
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  18. #588
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    Hey All,
    I have a few questions about where I am in the allpro program and was hoping for some guidance/assistance. I am currently on test week on my third cycle and these are the weights I am currently lifting for heavy day:

    I am 6 feet tall and over the course of three cycles have gone from 185 to 168, and I am now back up to 185. I would like to start a cut soon.

    Bench: 170
    Squat: 210
    Row: 180
    Military Press: 95
    Deadlift: 190
    Calf Raise 340
    Curls: 80

    This weekend I had a few too many on Sunday watching football and ended up eating a bunch of pizza. It threw off my breakfast the next morning as well as my performance during my test day on Monday. I failed on a few exercises as a result of this. I know this is not advised, but I decided to eat well and re-try my heavy test day today and I ended up completing every exercise. Here are my questions:

    1. During my squats I did not go as low as my warmup sets and I am wondering if this is common, or should I hold back my weight. I also had to take a 3-4 second breaks between reps after my eighth rep.
    2. During my should press, I was bending my knees a bit during my second set in order to throw the weight up in order to complete reps. Does this mean my last couple reps did not count? If not, do I keep my weight the same?
    3. I feel like these calf raises are a stupid exercise. I can load on the weight and get through the reps but I feel like doing a lighter weight and really getting a complete range of motion gives me more of a workout. What should I be aiming for in this exercise?
    4. I feel that I will be able to up my weights and make it through the first 3 weeks of the program but I dont see any way that I will be able to complete my test day in 5 weeks. What should I do from here?
    5. Do my weights seem right proportionally? Should I be lifting more or certain areas?
    6. I always feel like a get the most pump and best workout during my light day as I can really focus on form. Is this common? Does this mean I need to re-evaluate my weights?

    This is my second time using the same weight on curls (80 pound easy curl bar). I completed the 12 reps but I dont feel confident that I will be able to up the bar to 90 and have good form doing reps. What should I do? I feel that re-doing the same weights will be a waste of my progress as I dont have any issues doing 8 reps of these weights.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    I still recommend multiple negatives throughout the day, everyday. You may find chinups a better fit for allpro since only the curl is done palms up on the program.
    Thanks for the quick reply.
    Negatives through the day is a great idea!
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    Originally Posted by Johnrvoss View Post
    Hey All,
    I have a few questions about where I am in the allpro program and was hoping for some guidance/assistance. I am currently on test week on my third cycle and these are the weights I am currently lifting for heavy day:

    I am 6 feet tall and over the course of three cycles have gone from 185 to 168, and I am now back up to 185. I would like to start a cut soon.

    Bench: 170
    Squat: 210
    Row: 180
    Military Press: 95
    Deadlift: 190
    Calf Raise 340
    Curls: 80

    This weekend I had a few too many on Sunday watching football and ended up eating a bunch of pizza. It threw off my breakfast the next morning as well as my performance during my test day on Monday. I failed on a few exercises as a result of this. I know this is not advised, but I decided to eat well and re-try my heavy test day today and I ended up completing every exercise. Here are my questions:

    1. During my squats I did not go as low as my warmup sets and I am wondering if this is common, or should I hold back my weight. I also had to take a 3-4 second breaks between reps after my eighth rep.
    2. During my should press, I was bending my knees a bit during my second set in order to throw the weight up in order to complete reps. Does this mean my last couple reps did not count? If not, do I keep my weight the same?
    3. I feel like these calf raises are a stupid exercise. I can load on the weight and get through the reps but I feel like doing a lighter weight and really getting a complete range of motion gives me more of a workout. What should I be aiming for in this exercise?
    4. I feel that I will be able to up my weights and make it through the first 3 weeks of the program but I don’t see any way that I will be able to complete my test day in 5 weeks. What should I do from here?
    5. Do my weights seem right proportionally? Should I be lifting more or certain areas?
    6. I always feel like a get the most pump and best workout during my light day as I can really focus on form. Is this common? Does this mean I need to re-evaluate my weights?

    This is my second time using the same weight on curls (80 pound easy curl bar). I completed the 12 reps but I don’t feel confident that I will be able to up the bar to 90 and have good form doing reps. What should I do? I feel that re-doing the same weights will be a waste of my progress as I don’t have any issues doing 8 reps of these weights.
    Lets see if i can wade though all of this...

    First your lifts are way above average, and you may be getting to the end of the program. Soon the volume will be too low and the progression too fast.

    1) 2 breaths between reps is best. The worst is to just hold it and go up and down like a pogo stick for 10 seconds and think you accomplished something, those people are jus cheating with momentum and rebound. So ya 4-7 seconds at the top of the rep is fine.

    2) I go by olympic rules, and some knee flexion is allowed to get the weight going. This was also why it was pulled from the olympics, too hard to figure out knee flexion vs pushpress.

    3) calf raises are pure cosmetic, if they are bigger than your forearms skip them. zero carry over to other lifts. But 1/3 of gen pop needs them to avoid chicken legs.

    4) If you complete 10 rep week each cycle you are not losing gains. As i said you have above average lifts, and soon 10% will be too fast.

    5) Lift ratios are the best ive seen in 2 years monitoring this thread, keep it up.

    6) Pump does nothing, but light weight does correct bad form. The problem is if you dont go heavy, you dont know how your body will collapse into. Will your body collapse into good form, or collapse into a compromised state? If you always go light on OHP you can swing the weight all over the place and complete the lift, you cant do that with a heavy weight. Take me for example, by back is strong as an ox, it cant be rounded no matter how heavy of a weight i put on it. However too heavy of a weight will cause my knees to go all over the place. So this tells me my back form is correct, and i need to work on leg form. Legs are perfectly fine with a light weight, but that doesn show my faults i need to work on.

    For curls switch to rest pause style. Do a set of 70lbs (I hope for 15reps), rest 15-20 seconds, do another set to failure, rest 15-20 seconds, do another set to failure. Do this all cycle with the goal of adding reps on the last 2 sets. At 20 seconds you should be hitting half the reps of the previous set.

    PS: the ez bar splits the load between the bicep and the brachi (forearm). If you really want to nail the biceps you should use a straight bar. On the other hand if you want over all arm meat the hammer curls is better, the ez bar is a compromise between the 2. So it depends on goals and the health of your bicep/forearm/elbow.
    Last edited by nightanole; 12-23-2015 at 11:27 AM.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Lets see if i can wade though all of this...

    First your lifts are way above average, and you may be getting to the end of the program. Soon the volume will be too low and the progression too fast.

    1) 2 breaths between reps is best. The worst is to just hold it and go up and down like a pogo stick for 10 seconds and think you accomplished something, those people are jus cheating with momentum and rebound. So ya 4-7 seconds at the top of the rep is fine.

    2) I go by olympic rules, and some knee flexion is allowed to get the weight going. This was also why it was pulled from the olympics, too hard to figure out knee flexion vs pushpress.

    3) calf raises are pure cosmetic, if they are bigger than your forearms skip them. zero carry over to other lifts. But 1/3 of gen pop needs them to avoid chicken legs.

    4) If you complete 10 rep week each cycle you are not losing gains. As i said you have above average lifts, and soon 10% will be too fast.

    5) Lift ratios are the best ive seen in 2 years monitoring this thread, keep it up.

    6) Pump does nothing, but light weight does correct bad form. The problem is if you dont go heavy, you dont know how your body will collapse into. Will your body collapse into good form, or collapse into a compromised state? If you always go light on OHP you can swing the weight all over the place and complete the lift, you cant do that with a heavy weight. Take me for example, by back is strong as an ox, it cant be rounded no matter how heavy of a weight i put on it. However too heavy of a weight will cause my knees to go all over the place. So this tells me my back form is correct, and i need to work on leg form. Legs are perfectly fine with a light weight, but that doesn show my faults i need to work on.

    For curls switch to rest pause style. Do a set of 70lbs (I hope for 15reps), rest 15-20 seconds, do another set to failure, rest 15-20 seconds, do another set to failure. Do this all cycle with the goal of adding reps on the last 2 sets. At 20 seconds you should be hitting half the reps of the previous set.

    PS: the ez bar splits the load between the bicep and the brachi (forearm). If you really want to nail the biceps you should use a straight bar. On the other hand if you want over all arm meat the hammer curls is better, the ez bar is a compromise between the 2. So it depends on goals and the health of your bicep/forearm/elbow.
    Hey nightanole,

    Thanks for the help here. So just to recap a couple of these things to make sure I am understanding all of this correctly:

    1. not going as low during heavy day and taking breaks of 4-7 seconds between reps is fine for squats? Should I go ahead and up my weight again?

    2. Some knee flexion is allowed, but by olympic rules this not allowed. Assuming I will still use some flexion during 10-12 rep weeks it will be okay to up my weight again? If I decided I do not want any flexion on OHP reps, I should re-do the same weight?

    With my form/range of motion obviously changing for Squats and OHP, at what point do I say "this is to much, I need to reduce weight/ change programs"? I'm at a point now where I get pretty scared going down 12 reps on a heavy day (for squats) and feel like I would be more comfortable increasing my weight if it meant going to a program that required fewer reps and more working sets. Most guys that I see pushing a lot more weight than myself are usually doing 4-5 working sets and doing 4-5 reps as well. what's the deal with this?

    Thanks for the advice

    Failing a 12 rep test day also scares me as I don't want to waste another 5 weeks working my way back up to the same test.

    Any thought?
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post

    1) 2 breaths between reps is best. The worst is to just hold it and go up and down like a pogo stick for 10 seconds and think you accomplished something, those people are jus cheating with momentum and rebound. So ya 4-7 seconds at the top of the rep is fine.
    Does this advice apply to all exercises? Or just squats?
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    Originally Posted by Johnrvoss View Post
    Hey nightanole,

    Thanks for the help here. So just to recap a couple of these things to make sure I am understanding all of this correctly:

    1. not going as low during heavy day and taking breaks of 4-7 seconds between reps is fine for squats? Should I go ahead and up my weight again?

    2. Some knee flexion is allowed, but by olympic rules this not allowed. Assuming I will still use some flexion during 10-12 rep weeks it will be okay to up my weight again? If I decided I do not want any flexion on OHP reps, I should re-do the same weight?

    With my form/range of motion obviously changing for Squats and OHP, at what point do I say "this is to much, I need to reduce weight/ change programs"? I'm at a point now where I get pretty scared going down 12 reps on a heavy day (for squats) and feel like I would be more comfortable increasing my weight if it meant going to a program that required fewer reps and more working sets. Most guys that I see pushing a lot more weight than myself are usually doing 4-5 working sets and doing 4-5 reps as well. what's the deal with this?

    Thanks for the advice

    Failing a 12 rep test day also scares me as I don't want to waste another 5 weeks working my way back up to the same test.

    Any thought?
    1) you have to go low, going high will lead to injury soon since you are a) working with a heavy weight and b) changing direction when the knee joint is at its weakest. If anything just widen your stand a little to "tune" the bottom to just below parallel naturally.

    2) Some knee flexion is allowed (just like in the olympics). Hip drive and "push pressing" is not allowed. So again rocking back and forth a little and using knee extension is perfectly fine. Dropping your hips a little and popping the weight up is not.

    If at any point you feel the weight is too much to handle, just stop the cycle, rest 2 days, do a 10 rep test, and start the cycle over again. Think about it, no matter what you are only off by 5% tops.

    As for the other guys, there are 2-3 styles of training that work. ALLPRO uses the fatigue style, you are not allowed to recover. the 5x5 guys use a full recovery style, you better wait your dam time before attempting the weight again. You can get in trouble on allpro if you wait too long, and you can get in trouble on 5x5 if you wait too little.

    I repeated this i think yesterday day, you will be working with 30-40% less weight than the 5x5 guys due to the 12 reps and short rests. But your 24 squat reps will take 3minutes, theirs will take 20 minutes.

    As for when to change programs, it comes when weight bumps just bury you, but completing sets with a little lesser weight is child's play. Than means you need like 50% more volume, and 50% slower progression rate. Those 5x5 guys might hit 225 on the squat in 4-6 months, but it takes them a year to hit 315, They slow down alot at the end. Allpro is the opposite. Get in your 5-7 cycles and move on to a program with some auto regulation.

    Based on your whining i would recommend greyskull LP. You can make it 90% allpro lifts. It is 2 sets of 5, and a final set of reps to failure. and you can keep the rests to 3-3.5min. So the pattern is if you get in 10 reps on the last set, you bump 10lbs, if you get 5 more more reps, you bump 2.5lbs. If you get 4 reps, you cut back the weight 10%, and that should bump the next session back to above 10 reps. And you go on and on, the pattern works for about 3 years. So no crawling back to using a lighter weight, every session is a PR either with weight used, or rep with a given weight.
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    Originally Posted by munichveteran View Post
    Does this advice apply to all exercises? Or just squats?
    Any exercise that requires core bracing/breath hold. So its not going to work real well with chinups/rows/curls. Works with pedlay rows/ squats/bench(rest at top)/deads/ OHP(rest at top).
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    I would do your medium day, and on thurs do a 10 rep test for floor press and cable row, if you can do 10 reps with 35% more weight go for it
    Gave this a go today.

    Beat in mind that yesterday was medium day of test week, so I should be somewhat fatigued. For context, squats, OHP, and chin up felt really tough today.

    So...here's what happened. With floor press, I did 30 X 12 (30lbs Dumbbells), and felt I had more in me, so took it up to 35 and got 10 reps. Felt good. Do I bump the weight to 35 next week? Or even go to 40lbs? I've clearly been going way too light on this one (previous Heavy day was 22.5lbs DBs) although in fairness, I was using the bench when I did my last 10 rep test, and now that I'm on the floor it's a whole new exercise.

    As for cable row. Previous heavy day was 50lbs. I did 60 X 12 today, which I felt in my traps. I could have kept going on that set, but I upped it to 70 and got 12 reps. Felt again in my traps but maybe a little less isolated there. It must be a form issue. I upped it to 85lbs and got 10 reps. Struggling to know if I have my form correct, because I don't feel fatigued I my lats, but it has to be hitting there, right?

    Do I start with 85lbs as from next week?

    I did chin ups after this and it was tough to get through 2x12, but that could be down to yesterday being Medium day.

    I left the gym feeling like I got my ass kicked, in a good way. I think that's the objective.
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    Originally Posted by munichveteran View Post
    Gave this a go today.

    Beat in mind that yesterday was medium day of test week, so I should be somewhat fatigued. For context, squats, OHP, and chin up felt really tough today.

    So...here's what happened. With floor press, I did 30 X 12 (30lbs Dumbbells), and felt I had more in me, so took it up to 35 and got 10 reps. Felt good. Do I bump the weight to 35 next week? Or even go to 40lbs? I've clearly been going way too light on this one (previous Heavy day was 22.5lbs DBs) although in fairness, I was using the bench when I did my last 10 rep test, and now that I'm on the floor it's a whole new exercise.

    As for cable row. Previous heavy day was 50lbs. I did 60 X 12 today, which I felt in my traps. I could have kept going on that set, but I upped it to 70 and got 12 reps. Felt again in my traps but maybe a little less isolated there. It must be a form issue. I upped it to 85lbs and got 10 reps. Struggling to know if I have my form correct, because I don't feel fatigued I my lats, but it has to be hitting there, right?

    Do I start with 85lbs as from next week?

    I did chin ups after this and it was tough to get through 2x12, but that could be down to yesterday being Medium day.

    I left the gym feeling like I got my ass kicked, in a good way. I think that's the objective.
    Anything you got a set of 12 on, id up 2.5-5lbs to get it down to 10 reps(fresh). You shouldnt be "isolating" anything that involves more than one joint. Everything should be working together.
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    So, just how vital is it to complete the workout in the order stated?

    I ask because my gym is always busy and its very difficult to get a squat rack without waiting, so I'd rather get on with other stuff rather than sit around doing nothing while I wait.
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    Originally Posted by shawndom View Post
    So, just how vital is it to complete the workout in the order stated?

    I ask because my gym is always busy and its very difficult to get a squat rack without waiting, so I'd rather get on with other stuff rather than sit around doing nothing while I wait.
    First 3 need to be done first in no particular order, then the rest, then any accessories at the end. The default program is setup so you spend the least amount of time in the gym, and keeps you from hitting the same muscle back to back.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    If you cant handle dips, again try to lean forward with your legs out as much as possible, and aim for static holds of 60 seconds. Some of us are just not build for dips (some crack sternums). Its still safer on your shoulders vs the bench press (go ahead and flare your elbows on the dip :P) but if "more or less" full range dips feel back, just stop them.
    Tried a static hold today on dips. Am I aiming for upper arm at parallel? It's a real struggle to get legs back and lean forward while maintaining any kind of shape. My core just gives up. If I'm vertical it's fine, but obviously that's not the goal here.

    Any other 'cosmetic' fixes I can add while I work on my core/chest strength.

    Bear I mind I just increased my press from 22.5lb DBs to 35lb DBs. I also switched from bench press to floor press, but that's still a fairly major weight increase. Perhaps that alone will do the trick.
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    Originally Posted by munichveteran View Post
    Tried a static hold today on dips. Am I aiming for upper arm at parallel? It's a real struggle to get legs back and lean forward while maintaining any kind of shape. My core just gives up. If I'm vertical it's fine, but obviously that's not the goal here.

    Any other 'cosmetic' fixes I can add while I work on my core/chest strength.

    Bear I mind I just increased my press from 22.5lb DBs to 35lb DBs. I also switched from bench press to floor press, but that's still a fairly major weight increase. Perhaps that alone will do the trick.
    I think you are using the "back" version of the forward lean, instead of the abs version. Use Mode B


    The Only other cosmetic thing i can think of is hanging bent knee leg raises, and a 5-10 second paused bench with your 22.5bs.

    With all these accessories, play it by ear, do them on off days if you can, and if they start affecting your allpro lifts, switch to doing them directly after the allpro workout. You shouldnt be spending more than 1 hour a week doing additional work outside of the core allpro workout.
    Allpro is a very high volume program compared to other beginner programs (12 rep heavy day is the amount a 3x5 does in a week) so take it easy on adding stuff. Hell all this stuff im mentioning might not be needed till another cycle or 2 when you need the additional volume.
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