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  1. #31
    Registered User JohnSmithXP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Aim low for the first cycle, you can always bump 15-20% at the end of the cycle if test day feels real easy (it should take all you got). Most dont realize how hard 10 rep week is, since now they have 2 weeks of fatigue buildup.



    Use the allpro math, 10% changes in weight add or subtract 4 reps. So if you pass test day, and add 20% instead of 10%, that is your new 5-6 rep max.

    PS: V2 is an off season program, and not sustainable, you get a cookie if you last 3-4 months without killing yourself. is meant to be cycled with other programs, just like the 20 rep squat programs.
    Damn it, how long is it gonna last? just two months?

    What am i gonna do after that? what do you think i should do after. i want a program to stick with

    i wanna do this one first though
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  2. #32
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnSmithXP View Post
    Damn it, how long is it gonna last? just two months?

    What am i gonna do after that? what do you think i should do after. i want a program to stick with

    i wanna do this one first though
    Standard allpro is good till you can bench bw 10 times and squat 1.5x bw 10 times. After that progress is generally too fast and you need to switch to either novice(for the extra rest) or autoregulated (so you can progress at less than 10%).

    Again alot of intermediate routines are meant to be cycled. They are mesocycles meant to be ran every other or every 3rd-4th mesocycle. Mesocycles are grouped into either monthly or quarterly blocks.
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Aim low for the first cycle, you can always bump 15-20% at the end of the cycle if test day feels real easy (it should take all you got). Most dont realize how hard 10 rep week is, since now they have 2 weeks of fatigue buildup.
    Ok I will aim low, thanks man.
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  4. #34
    Registered User JohnSmithXP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Standard allpro is good till you can bench bw 10 times and squat 1.5x bw 10 times. After that progress is generally too fast and you need to switch to either novice(for the extra rest) or autoregulated (so you can progress at less than 10%).

    Again alot of intermediate routines are meant to be cycled. They are mesocycles meant to be ran every other or every 3rd-4th mesocycle. Mesocycles are grouped into either monthly or quarterly blocks.
    So i do it until i bench bw for 10 reps then i change to novice again? i don't get it, that sounds illogical
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  5. #35
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnSmithXP View Post
    So i do it until i bench bw for 10 reps then i change to novice again? i don't get it, that sounds illogical
    Im lost too.

    Allpro regular is good till those stated lifts. Novice can extend the allpro programs usefulness another 2-3 cycles. Auto regulated can be used anytime.

    Around bw for 10 bench you stop being able to progress at 10% per cycle, you never will progress at 10% again, ever, till you are dead.

    Hell it took candito 2 years to put on 15lbs on his 300lb bench.
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  6. #36
    Registered User JohnSmithXP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Im lost too.

    Allpro regular is good till those stated lifts. Novice can extend the allpro programs usefulness another 2-3 cycles. Auto regulated can be used anytime.

    Around bw for 10 bench you stop being able to progress at 10% per cycle, you never will progress at 10% again, ever, till you are dead.

    Hell it took candito 2 years to put on 15lbs on his 300lb bench.
    can you please give me a link for "allpro regular" and "autoregulated" cause i don't know what you're talking about
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  7. #37
    Registered User DrakHarr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnSmithXP View Post
    can you please give me a link for "allpro regular" and "autoregulated" cause i don't know what you're talking about
    This is "regular". Novice is less reps and more sets, which you would do after.
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  8. #38
    Registered User JohnSmithXP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DrakHarr View Post
    This is "regular". Novice is less reps and more sets, which you would do after.
    what's "autoregulated"?
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  9. #39
    Registered User DrakHarr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnSmithXP View Post
    what's "autoregulated"?
    You regulate your own progress based on how you're responding/feeling.
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  10. #40
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    My first post, er mer gerd

    I've been trying to train for about two years now, typical newbie not not knowing quite how to get the habit formed or the diet right ETC. In that time i've completed the big man on campus programme once and the shortcut to shred programme once consecutively. All the other weeks i've either not worked out or done 1 - 3 routines from either of those two programmes. Obviously this is no way to make gains.

    I'm currently on another shortcut to shred run-through but I can barely complete all the exercises and cardio acceleration and often come home after the gym feeling strung out and kinda awful, the opposite of how one should feel after the gym. I did a heavy day on the shortcut to shred programme (typical 3 - 5 reps at big weight) and that felt so much better than any of the other days. So, with that experience i've decided to go back to basics (which obviously work) and try using this strategy while also trying to keep diet in check - something I really struggle with, I eat high calorie foods that aren't filling when I get stressed/anxious/depressed.

    I'll get round to updating a picture and other stats and hopefully stop spinning my wheels and actually get somewhere for once.

    This post was rambling and is mostly me talking to myself, but hello BB.com forums and a massive thank you to nightanole for writing up this programme and providing all those FAQs.

    I'm apprehensive about the lack of cardio and no drop sets because that's how i've been training so far but I trust your judgement and experience and obviously my strategy hasn't had the results I wanted XD. This programme also seems like it will be a lot of fun! I really enjoy doing the big lifts (particularly barbell rows, I can really feel the musculature of my back during all the reps if that makes any sense).
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  11. #41
    Registered User DrakHarr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mythenthefang View Post
    My first post, er mer gerd

    I've been trying to train for about two years now, typical newbie not not knowing quite how to get the habit formed or the diet right ETC. In that time i've completed the big man on campus programme once and the shortcut to shred programme once consecutively. All the other weeks i've either not worked out or done 1 - 3 routines from either of those two programmes. Obviously this is no way to make gains.

    I'm currently on another shortcut to shred run-through but I can barely complete all the exercises and cardio acceleration and often come home after the gym feeling strung out and kinda awful, the opposite of how one should feel after the gym. I did a heavy day on the shortcut to shred programme (typical 3 - 5 reps at big weight) and that felt so much better than any of the other days. So, with that experience i've decided to go back to basics (which obviously work) and try using this strategy while also trying to keep diet in check - something I really struggle with, I eat high calorie foods that aren't filling when I get stressed/anxious/depressed.

    I'll get round to updating a picture and other stats and hopefully stop spinning my wheels and actually get somewhere for once.

    This post was rambling and is mostly me talking to myself, but hello BB.com forums and a massive thank you to nightanole for writing up this programme and providing all those FAQs.

    I'm apprehensive about the lack of cardio and no drop sets because that's how i've been training so far but I trust your judgement and experience and obviously my strategy hasn't had the results I wanted XD. This programme also seems like it will be a lot of fun! I really enjoy doing the big lifts (particularly barbell rows, I can really feel the musculature of my back during all the reps if that makes any sense).
    Shortcut to shred is for advanced lifters. It's one of the most taxing things I've ever seen and you'll make no better gains on it than a beginner routine. Advance lifters need advanced workouts to push limits... you're just going to get sick following it.

    Welcome! I'm on cycle 2 of this program, losing 2.5-3 lbs a week (probably too much, but i havent noticed strength loss).

    And about shortcut to shred, ironically, I too tried that thinking I needed it.... it mostly just made me sick and I couldn't measure progress anyhow, not to mention beginners dont need that kinda volume.
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  12. #42
    Registered User poh123's Avatar
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    I was wondering if its okay to do squat the end of the workout. When I do it at the beginning I feel sick and dizzy and I usually have to take a long break after the bench and bent over rows.
    Also, I was thinking of substituting stiff legged deadlifts for lying leg curls, is that okay. The reason is I dont have any grip strength to do deadlifts and end up dropping the bar several times per set.
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  13. #43
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnSmithXP View Post
    what's "autoregulated"?

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1376160513
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  14. #44
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by poh123 View Post
    I was wondering if its okay to do squat the end of the workout. When I do it at the beginning I feel sick and dizzy and I usually have to take a long break after the bench and bent over rows.
    Also, I was thinking of substituting stiff legged deadlifts for lying leg curls, is that okay. The reason is I dont have any grip strength to do deadlifts and end up dropping the bar several times per set.
    We put the squat at the beginning of the workout, because if we put it any other place beginners skip them. If you have the mental fortitude, go ahead and put them at the end as a finisher.

    You dont have grip strength so you dont want to do the only grip strength exercise.
    Do the SLDL with lighter weight, focus on getting the most rom possible. Forget about the weight right now.

    You really need to figure out weights that you can use on the program, and stop trying to adjust the program to the weights. The program will make you well rounded if you let it.
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  15. #45
    Registered User Diancecht's Avatar
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    I'm currently on cycle 2 week 5 but I've been ill for over a week so I have missed a few days, would it be okay to start from week 2 as I still feel a little weak?

    Also, I wondered if you could take a look at my progress photos on my profile and tell me what bf percentage you think I am. I weigh 181lbs at the moment and guessing I'm 21% bf but not sure, what weight would I need to be to reach 10% bf?
    Last edited by Diancecht; 10-09-2015 at 01:09 PM.
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  16. #46
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    In my second cycle now, really starting to see results! I have a quick question about benching: I'm a tall guy (6'3) with long arms, even for my height. When I bench, I'm most comfortable with a grip that has my forearms bent slightly inward, at maybe an 80-85 degree angle. I read everywhere that the general goal is for that to be a 90 degree angle, but when I tried it, it hurts the hell out of my wrists and it feels like I'm overstretching my pecs a bit. Is it something I just need to work on, or can I leave my grip as-is?

    My suspicion is that it doesn't matter, but I feel weirdly compulsive about getting my form "perfect," whatever that means.
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  17. #47
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hoverboy View Post
    In my second cycle now, really starting to see results! I have a quick question about benching: I'm a tall guy (6'3) with long arms, even for my height. When I bench, I'm most comfortable with a grip that has my forearms bent slightly inward, at maybe an 80-85 degree angle. I read everywhere that the general goal is for that to be a 90 degree angle, but when I tried it, it hurts the hell out of my wrists and it feels like I'm overstretching my pecs a bit. Is it something I just need to work on, or can I leave my grip as-is?

    My suspicion is that it doesn't matter, but I feel weirdly compulsive about getting my form "perfect," whatever that means.
    The most "efficient" grip is the one were the wrist is directly over the elbow when the bar is at chest level.

    Another trick it to try to twist the arms alittle to create tension at the bottom of the lift. Start the lift with elbows flared (pointing at the weights) and then twist the elbows to get them to more or less point at the knees at the bottom of the lift. Elbows at knees create a very tight chest for the push, and elbows flared out will help with lock out.
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  18. #48
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Diancecht View Post
    I'm currently on cycle 2 week 5 but I've been ill for over a week so I have missed a few days, would it be okay to start from week 2 as I still feel a little weak?

    Also, I wondered if you could take a look at my progress photos on my profile and tell me what bf percentage you think I am. I weigh 181lbs at the moment and guessing I'm 21% bf but not sure, what weight would I need to be to reach 10% bf?
    When in doubt, always start over at nine rep week.

    And you look around 17-18%. You dont really carry fat in your mid section, but you carry alot in your upper body so its a little hard to tell, but def below 20%.

    If we did ugly numbers, you would need to be 90% of 181lbs to be at 10%, odds are since you lose alot of water weight, and a little muscle once you get below 13%. So id say 160-165lbs depending on how much muscle you put on.
    Last edited by nightanole; 10-09-2015 at 07:14 PM.
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  19. #49
    Registered User Wanderer10's Avatar
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    Went through the plan with a personal trainer, to make sure my form wasnt too bad and to get an idea of a weight to start on.

    However when I went to do the plan, I couldn't even get through some of the reps.

    My bench was only 40kg, but I could only do 8 reps in the first set.

    Would you recommend reducing the weight to get the reps or try to get 9 reps out at this weight next time and so on?

    Also, following the deadlifts, I was so sore when i went for the second workout. Do you just have to lift through the ache?
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  20. #50
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Wanderer10 View Post
    Went through the plan with a personal trainer, to make sure my form wasnt too bad and to get an idea of a weight to start on.

    However when I went to do the plan, I couldn't even get through some of the reps.

    My bench was only 40kg, but I could only do 8 reps in the first set.

    Would you recommend reducing the weight to get the reps or try to get 9 reps out at this weight next time and so on?

    Also, following the deadlifts, I was so sore when i went for the second workout. Do you just have to lift through the ache?
    If you are missing reps, reduce that lifts weight 5% or the next jump down in bar weight, which ever is greater. You can not miss reps on this program or it will bury you.
    It will take you about 6 weeks to adapt to the program. The only cure for soreness is frequency, so never skip a workout for the first cycle or 2. Hell even long time lifters, if they go longer than a few weeks without doing a lift, they will be rolling out of bed to get up too.
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  21. #51
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    First I have just started this is my first day and I have never lefted before
    HI guys I have some questions
    The SLDL:
    I was doing it today and felt uncomfortable in my shoulder plates when the bar is low on some reps and sometimes felt the stretch in the hams
    What was it couseing the uncomfort in there
    Question 2
    OHP
    Im weak in this exercise I just do it with barbell (18kg) and failed to complete the second work set did 5 reps only
    Question 3 I didnt feel any burn in the chest during the bench press even though it was hard somehow to complete the last rep ( not that hard but enough to be swinging when racking it)
    And last I cant warm up with 1/4 or 1/2 because 1/4 or 1/2 is less than barbell waight so I just warm up by doing barbell only then add 2.5 kg plates then add 5 kg plates and do the working sets with the 5kg plates
    Thanks I advance for this amazing program all the guys in the gym do it wrong Im really glad to be not one of them
    P.s. When I did my 10rm with the SLDL I started light to see how it goes and felt it good im my hams but today I encreased the weight I think this is the probelm I dont know though
    Last edited by Marwan4449; 10-11-2015 at 07:48 AM.
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  22. #52
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    Calf raises should be weighted or not and
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  23. #53
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Marwan4449 View Post
    First I have just started this is my first day and I have never lefted before
    HI guys I have some questions
    The SLDL:
    I was doing it today and felt uncomfortable in my shoulder plates when the bar is low on some reps and sometimes felt the stretch in the hams
    What was it couseing the uncomfort in there
    Question 2
    OHP
    Im weak in this exercise I just do it with barbell (18kg) and failed to complete the second work set did 5 reps only
    Question 3 I didnt feel any burn in the chest during the bench press even though it was hard somehow to complete the last rep ( not that hard but enough to be swinging when racking it)
    And last I cant warm up with 1/4 or 1/2 because 1/4 or 1/2 is less than barbell waight so I just warm up by doing barbell only then add 2.5 kg plates then add 5 kg plates and do the working sets with the 5kg plates
    Thanks I advance for this amazing program all the guys in the gym do it wrong Im really glad to be not one of them
    P.s. When I did my 10rm with the SLDL I started light to see how it goes and felt it good im my hams but today I encreased the weight I think this is the probelm I dont know though
    Im going to try to decipher this "forum english"

    SLDL - Sounds like you are trying to pinch your shoulder blades together like in the bench/squat, this is incorrect, you should be "locking them down to your sides" with your lats. Pinching shoulder blades in a dead is gonna cause a strain at some point.

    OHP- Depending on your equipment either- switch to dumb bells and do the arnold press, or (and this is a big or) switch to sets of 3 with 30 seconds of rest till you complete thats weeks rep goal.

    Warmups- do 1 sets with just a pvc pipe/broom handle as a ROM warmup, then do the bar if its around 50% of your working weight. Else do as you did and use the bar for the first warmup, If the bar is 65-75% of you working weight then do both warmups with half the amount of reps for the week. Once you start getting into the 75% range you only need a few reps to prime your CNS.

    Start light and just bump the weights 15-20% at the end of the cycle if test day seems real easy.
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  24. #54
    Registered User Wanderer10's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    If you are missing reps, reduce that lifts weight 5% or the next jump down in bar weight, which ever is greater. You can not miss reps on this program or it will bury you.
    It will take you about 6 weeks to adapt to the program. The only cure for soreness is frequency, so never skip a workout for the first cycle or 2. Hell even long time lifters, if they go longer than a few weeks without doing a lift, they will be rolling out of bed to get up too.
    Cheers for the reply. Next time I'll just take the weight down to make sure I can do them.

    My next workout day is tomorrow. My left arm has just got even worse today, to the point where I can't straighten it without pain. Would you still give it a go tomorrow?
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  25. #55
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Wanderer10 View Post
    Cheers for the reply. Next time I'll just take the weight down to make sure I can do them.

    My next workout day is tomorrow. My left arm has just got even worse today, to the point where I can't straighten it without pain. Would you still give it a go tomorrow?
    Id avoid using the arm, and just do the ROM without weight so the muscle belly can heal in motion, if it is a muscle pull.
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  26. #56
    Registered User OryxOryx's Avatar
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    The Alan Thrall video was good, I think it helped on my BOR. One thing is I think I was trying to keep my elbows too close to my sides during the lift. Letting them flare out a bit (Thrall says this helps work the upper back more) and I am pretty sure I was working my back more.

    Other than the Alan Thrall vids, are there any resources you recommend for learning "mental cues" to use during the lifts? Due to my extreme remote location, I don't have a competent training partner and even buffering youtube vids is a big chore, but I worry a lot being a novice lifter about getting my form down. Just watching vids of proper form is of limited use to me because then when I'm lifting I can't keep it all straight, but mental cues like "flare your elbows out" or "imagine the weight is attached to your triceps" or "think of your hands and forearms like hooks" are helpful because I can actually remember them while lifting.

    Do the compound exercises work biceps much? I do the barbell curl last and seem to be making no progress on it and I'm wondering if my biceps are already taxed from earlier lifts? I'm doing (in order):

    Squat
    Bench
    BOR
    OHP
    SLDL
    Lat Pulldown
    Curls
    Calf raises (only once a week b/c time issues during weekdays)
    Skullcrushers

    Autoregulated version.
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  27. #57
    Registered User martyr01's Avatar
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    Hi Nightanole

    Loving your work.

    Just started my second cycle on this program on a deficit. Started at 101kg (I'm 5ft 9) and now currently 95kg. Looking to lose lots more over the journey.

    I've heard you say that 3 x 45min+ cardio per week on a cut (on rest days) can assist greatly with lactic acid flushing and obviously cardiovascular health. My question is, will 45min+ on a elliptical trainer be sufficient? To be honest I'd initially struggle with 45min+ of cardio so would prefer to build up my cardiovascular health within the comfort of my own home.
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  28. #58
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OryxOryx View Post
    The Alan Thrall video was good, I think it helped on my BOR. One thing is I think I was trying to keep my elbows too close to my sides during the lift. Letting them flare out a bit (Thrall says this helps work the upper back more) and I am pretty sure I was working my back more.

    Other than the Alan Thrall vids, are there any resources you recommend for learning "mental cues" to use during the lifts? Due to my extreme remote location, I don't have a competent training partner and even buffering youtube vids is a big chore, but I worry a lot being a novice lifter about getting my form down. Just watching vids of proper form is of limited use to me because then when I'm lifting I can't keep it all straight, but mental cues like "flare your elbows out" or "imagine the weight is attached to your triceps" or "think of your hands and forearms like hooks" are helpful because I can actually remember them while lifting.

    Do the compound exercises work biceps much? I do the barbell curl last and seem to be making no progress on it and I'm wondering if my biceps are already taxed from earlier lifts? I'm doing (in order):

    Squat
    Bench
    BOR
    OHP
    SLDL
    Lat Pulldown
    Curls
    Calf raises (only once a week b/c time issues during weekdays)
    Skullcrushers

    Autoregulated version.
    Most lifts other than squat/dead/bench do not have good articles posted on cues, since only those need to be perfect for competition, all the rest are altered to suite the lifters goals/weaknesses. As long as you are doing the exercise without binding joints and are keeping the skeletal system in its strongest pose, that is all you can do. Everyones form will look different, and what is a good cue for some is a bad cue for others. Take the deadlift for example, for some always keeping the head up is great for keeping there upper back tight, for others the head movement causes them to lose tightness, and they are better keeping there chin down the whole time.

    As for progressing on accessory work, its almost impossible if you are progressing on the main lifts. Think about total tonnage lifted each week, if your row goes up, and your curl doesnt, you still have increased the work capacity and strength of the bicep. You are right that the bicep is taxed at the end of the workout, the purpose of the curl is additional fatigue work so your row and other compounds go up. That bicep is growing as fast as it can, but it doesnt even weight as much as a good steak. Bumps for arm work are going to be slow and 10% on a curl is not going more than 5lbs, and odds are that is both arms combined and thats if you can curl the 45lb bar for 2 sets of 12 at the end of the workout.

    Originally Posted by martyr01 View Post
    Hi Nightanole

    Loving your work.

    Just started my second cycle on this program on a deficit. Started at 101kg (I'm 5ft 9) and now currently 95kg. Looking to lose lots more over the journey.

    I've heard you say that 3 x 45min+ cardio per week on a cut (on rest days) can assist greatly with lactic acid flushing and obviously cardiovascular health. My question is, will 45min+ on a elliptical trainer be sufficient? To be honest I'd initially struggle with 45min+ of cardio so would prefer to build up my cardiovascular health within the comfort of my own home.
    The key to the "good" cardio is its something you can sustain for "at least" 45min. The "bad" cardio is interval training or running 16-17min 5ks. So pick something that you can do for at least 45min, dont work your way up to it. "bad" cardio will rob recovery on this style of routine. This is not a 3x3 program with 5min rests, that requires conditioning work on off days.

    Hell set the eliptical to 1 and grind some world of warcraft or catch some pokemon for a few hours a night. I call it the "oprah winfrey" diet, just sit on the eliptical and catch up all the day time television. Thats the kind of cardio you are going for.
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  29. #59
    Registered User Mythenthefang's Avatar
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    With regards to using this programme and the basic way to calculating calories:

    Which activity level describes this programme? multiply the BMR by 1.2 or by 1.4?
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  30. #60
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mythenthefang View Post
    With regards to using this programme and the basic way to calculating calories:

    Which activity level describes this programme? multiply the BMR by 1.2 or by 1.4?
    1.2, and the calc will be wrong and say you need to eat like a horse.

    Baseline is 100 grams of fats/protein and 200-300 grams of carbs, that puts you a hair over 2000 calories.

    On the program you should start it on a cut to get to 13-15% (aka tensed abs) and then decide to bulk and try to hit 15% bumps, maintain and hit 10% bumps and recomp, or continue cutting to get to relaxed abs and eat just enough carbs that you hit 2 sets of 10 each cycle.

    If you dont adjust your eating habits, and were maintaining weight and not working out before starting the program, you will drop about a half pound a week after starting the program.
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