So now you go to prison if you are religious??

[Dave1958]

She is an elected official. She can resign, but the only other way is impeachment. The KY legislature won't touch this with a 10' pole.

[Dave1958]

Her name goes on the license, that is the issue. In Kentucky, you can apply for a license in any county, and be married in any county

[Dave1958]

And the bolded is why we are f'cked as a nation.

They are taking God out of everything, then they wonder why there is so much f'ckin evil in this world.....

There is no new law. SCOTUS has ruled it is not legal to now marry who you want. The issue now is polygamy, polyandry now legal

[2am]

I dont' disagree with you, but I wonder what can of worms this may open.

Could you as a ______ be forced by law to do something that is against your _______? or more specifically for this case: Could you as a _____ be forced to do something by a law of the land that is second to the covenants of your faith?

If we are truly a nation of freedom of religion they how can she be prosecuted for exercising that freedom? The job does not separate her from her religion, just as being a worker at Mary Kay cosmetics not separate me from being a male. Sure I can change my religion at any time, but now in society so too can I change my sex. So the basis of the persons identification with something beyond their physical appearance which is all the rage now, here, is not being respected because it goes against the grain.

While her point of view has enough holes in it to make it a sieve, it IS holding some water for a bit.

Years ago local butchers would solve an issue like this by having 2 separate slicers, one that did regular meat and the other that did halal/kosher meat. If the guy who did one was out then someone else stepped in to do the job through delegation.

The system here is actually failing her in this regard because it did not delegate the same authority to someone else who would have no qualms doing what their peer could or would not. It's an odd situation which may see some change forthcoming regarding objections to the duties of a job due to religious observances. Surely as accommodate meatless Fridays in the cafeteria for some and prayer rooms for some others, we figure out some way to resolve this issue with common sense.

Religion should not be above the law...

[Partyrocking]

Her name goes on the license, that is the issue. In Kentucky, you can apply for a license in any county, and be married in any county

The issue is she'd rather pretend to be a martyr than do her job or quit. Her name on the license isn't a personal endorsement. She didn't endorse any of the straight couples getting married. They could have been murderers, child molesters, or any other ghastly thing and she didn't care because it wasn't her business what they were. It was only her business that they met the state's requirement for marriage.

[Postmort3m]

What are the chances she is forced (basically) to resign, then sues the federal government for taking away her ability to work while maintaining her religious beliefs?

[champ07]

She isn't a government employee, she's an elected official that took an oath when she took her position. She refused to honor her oath even after she was ordered several times to do so. She could have resigned her position and everything would have been just fine but no, she decided otherwise. If you take an oath in court to tell the truth and you don't, you don't get fired, you... ready for this... go to jail. That anyone would try to spin it as somebody going to jail for her religion is dumb as phuk.

I love the way the way this woman thinks.Very smart girl.

[Brackneyc]

What are the chances she is forced (basically) to resign, then sues the federal government for taking away her ability to work while maintaining her religious beliefs?

Zero.

[usersignup2]

I wouldn't worry about it. her almighty Dog will get her out.

[Fishman15]

She isn't a government employee, she's an elected official that took an oath when she took her position. She refused to honor her oath even after she was ordered several times to do so. She could have resigned her position and everything would have been just fine but no, she decided otherwise. If you take an oath in court to tell the truth and you don't, you don't get fired, you... ready for this... go to jail. That anyone would try to spin it as somebody going to jail for her religion is dumb as phuk.

Depends on what your last name is. If it rhymes with Flinton that might not necessarily be true...

[Fishman15]

This statement is ignorant. The world was far more dangerous when God was at his peak. The world now is actually the safest its ever been. The most religious places in the world are Africa and the Middle East. They don't seem evil less too me. China with 90% non believers, Sweden with 78% non believers Canada, Hong Kong, Netherlands etc... are the safest Countries in the world with the most non believers. Even Israel has over 60% non believers. The US which has the most believers out of the wealthiest Countries seems to have most of the wacko's.

Notice the Countries with the most believers also have the lowest education. US is doing a poor job at educating its people and the gap between the rich and poor (fame and material possession obsessiveness) is what's causing America's 'evil'. It has nothing to do with God.

China is a safe country? I guess that depends on what the meaning of "safe" is. If the gap between rich and poor is causing the evil...maybe communism is the answer. I learn so much here...

[thomashenry]

Discerning the meaning of the Present moment requires sobriety precisely because it`s radicalism. I was under the assumption in the Bill of rights, unalienable rights, one of them is freedom of Religion, not freedom from religion, so many People of Faith will now be dragged into Court if they do not Violate their consciences but violate mans law, Prosecuted and persecuted for their beliefs, fined, imprisoned, bankrupted, bakers, florists, little sisters of the poor etc, vilifying Americans unwilling to assent to a new orthodoxy, Religious Liberty is about more than just protection for religious organizations and persons, as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and central to their lives and faiths, Religious Liberty is about Freedom of action in matters of Religion, and the Liberty is directly correlated to the Civil RESTRAINTS placed upon religious practice, The First amendment GURANTEE`S the Freedom of the exercise of Religion .

How is it that a clerk is Arrested for the SO called violation of the SO called rule of Law, but Politicians Violate them Consistently and blatantly, For instance, "Sanctuary Cities" Violation of Federal Law, Border enforcement Etc, just because a Court issues an opinion doesn`t make it right, Dred Scott, Plessy V Ferguson, Koramtsu etc, The Court has no business getting into same sex marriage, Tyranny comes in many forms, How can it be the Law of the land that these judges swear to uphold, can be abused by them and we are forced to live by the law of the judiciary when they are clearly immoral ! Judicial Lawlessness can quickly cross into tyranny, being capricious and arbitrary is not the Rule of law, and certainly not Constitutional.

She is an elected official and some may argue she in effect exercised the "will of the People" because there are many who oppose same sex marriage, regardless of what 5 justices decided, progressives should never be taken seriously when arguing for the Rule of law, they could care less, again, See sanctuary Cities, or the felonies committed by Hillary Clinton, not too mention her husband`s numerous felonies, instead they throw stones at a clerk who inconvenienced a few homosexuals, but not a Secretary of State who placed our Nations National Security at risk, Rule of Law, What about the President and the Dream act, or unilaterally changing Obamacare, The IRS targeting American Citizens, or all those making excuses for the Riots, RULE OF LAW ? What about Louis Farakhan calling for 10K black men to start hunting Whites, Rule of law, who is kidding who

Where in the Constitution does it discuss or even give an Opinion on Marriage ? Gay Marriage is nothing but the will of the elites, so 5 People say it is and that`s that ? hardly, that is tyranny and injustice, defying the Will of the People, seizing power to rewrite ancient human institutions to satiate radical liberal ideology is not so much a law as it is a sham and a ruse. We are not morally obligated to cooperate with evil agendas and rampant tyranny in the guise of Federal Govt, Marriage is between and man and a Woman, like water is wet, gay marriage is a non sequitur, no matter what the Supreme Court Says, up until a month and half ago, ALL societies recognized the special differences between men and women, the Marriage between the 2 gives Birth{ and in actuality only can happen between a Man & a Woman} to New People and societies a Collection of People called Families ! Gay Couples cannot Reproduce

Kim Davis Does not want to Participate in something that is not true, So this IS a religious rights issue, more than that it is a right issue. Christians need to see others who will say I will not comply and are willing to risk and make a stand, the are a Myriad of Examples throughout history even when it means jeopardizing their own safety & Freedom, the truth is the truth no matter the sins of the one speaking it, and She owned up to her sins, she didn`t justify or rationalize her divorces, she is not guilty of hypocrisy, she has suffered her public embarrassment, she is and has been more vetted than some Politicians.

America is becoming Lawless and a Post Constitutional Land, rejecting Constitutional Law, God`s law, a Culture Consumed with Moral Chaos, confusion, heading into an abyss led by godless tyrants and all this is just an Observance and Opinion, and the Beauty of it is, I have to answer to Who I believe in and not another opinion and I tried to refrain from proselytizing

[CestLaVida]

Matthew 10:22

And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Just keep your faith in God, brother.

[Frnkd]

We are f'cking doomed!!!

According to this article she will remain until she changes her views?

"Today, for the first time in history, an American citizen has been incarcerated for having the belief of conscience that marriage is the union of one man and one woman,” Mr. Gannam said after a hearing that stretched deep into Thursday afternoon. “And she’s been ordered to stay there until she’s willing to change her mind, until she’s willing to change her conscience about what belief is.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/us...iage.html?_r=0

She is using religion as an excuse for not doing her job. A job she was voted into and she vowed to uphold. Too, she can quit if she really is that adamant but who wants to quit an $80k. Not enough faith to do that I suppose. What her lawyer says is that she doesn't want her name on these licenses and wants an "accommodation" made for her to not sign them.

Kinda tired of using religion for a behavior because you don't like it. It's been ruled same sex marriage is constitutional. And what it comes down to is the benefits of marriage is denied by couples i.e. Death benefits, being able to visit ICU as a non-blood relative- married couples aren't questioned. Etc. if there is no official marriage certificate.
I think this woman's intentions is to capitalize on this, write a book, go on speaking tours at religious gatherings- Ala-Dugger style, until it all collapses. Be in the company of politicians and so on.

[sojomojo]

She is an elected official. She can resign, but the only other way is impeachment. The KY legislature won't touch this with a 10' pole.

As County Clerk, Mrs. Davis earns $80,000 per year plus benefits. Since she's an elected official, she continues to receive these benefits even while in jail. I doubt Mrs. Davis would be able to earn a similar salary should she resign so she has no financial incentive to resign.

[crupiea]

We Taliban now

[stealth_swimmer]

Only skimmed the article. Sorry if this is an ignorant question, but why wasn't she just fired?

She was elected, so she couldn't be fired. I'm surprised she wasn't impeached or something equivalent though.


That being said, she shoudl've resigned if she had a religious disagreement. Also, I don't think jail was the rightful punishment.

She wasn't thrown in jail because she doesn't believe in same sex marriage. She was thrown in jail for violating a court order to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. She has a job to do, without injecting her beliefs into it.

Yeah, I've heard people say that, but what if you give a court order to a Muslim to eat pork? What if you give a court order to kill your neighbor? Obviously extreme examples, but those are the best for illustrating the principles at play.

And the bolded is why we are f'cked as a nation.

They are taking God out of everything, then they wonder why there is so much f'ckin evil in this world.....

Disagreed. We're seeing evil because even the people proclaiming to be Christian are not following Christian beliefs. God never said to force your views on others through force of man's law. She should've resigned. Meanwhile pastors should be allowed to refuse marriage services to anyone who goes against their religious views....BUT government employees should not be allowed to discriminate because then you don't have equality under the law.

That would give people the opportunity to CHOOSE which route they go - a marriage through government or through a church of their choice that wants to perform services for them. Instead politics has done what it always does - make people fight each other for power and pit us against each other instead of allowing for peaceful coexistence.

[Clinos]

I don't see it as a can of worms. I think people are free to hold a position or a job. Nobody forces them to be there. If the job or position requires activities that go against the person's beliefs, that person should not apply for that position. Now, I understand that at the time she run for that position gay marriages were not legal, but now they are, so she can
a) Resign because the new rules are incompatible with her beliefs. That would be the honorable thing to do, as I am sure even Christians believe if you get paid to do something you should do it, and if you took an oath you should honor it. She steps down, she doesn't have to marry gay people, everybody lives happily ever after.
b) Issue the licenses even if she doesn't believe in gay marriage. She can find some rationalization for that, like the belief that only marriage in a church is real marriage, or that they are married in the eye of the State but not in the eye of God, or whatever.
c) Do what she did, and suffer the consequences.

Of course another course of action may have been to fine her for every day she doesn't issue licenses, and increase the fine every day until either she goes broke or she steps down or she starts doing her job. But I don't know the law, maybe that's not an option in that situation, who knows?

There's no good reason for anyone to insist in taking a job or a position and then refuse to do what that job requires because of religious reasons. None. Do your job or find another job.

Good points, however let us assume for a moment the contrary that she had the job before the law, so then couldn't she then state the change in the law forced her to resign because it violated her ability to practice her religion as was given her right?

Following that at which point did the State say to her or ask her if she had a religious or personal objection to the task of her job that would force her dereliction from duty?

A dereliction that could be argued that the state is now forcing on her because she by the doctrine of her faith is unable to perform and they took no steps to provide other means of recourse for those aggrieved by her religious or other stance nor asked her of when she was provided the job in the official capacity of a state official.

They were going to fine her, but she has more than a few groups financially propping up her legal defence, the judge stated the fines were not an option because someone would just pay them on her behalf.

Religion should not be above the law...

Secular deism and common law, which are the basis for most Western law..and specifically our founding laws, tend to completely disagree.

What are the chances she is forced (basically) to resign, then sues the federal government for taking away her ability to work while maintaining her religious beliefs?

I think with a good lawyer, and she has many of them, can present this as a case against the federal government in a turn about on the basis of religion and religious freedom. This case is not as cut and dry as it seems and once she stated her objections came from God alone, she changed the nature of the discussion and the case. I do believe she stands more than just a fair chance here.

As County Clerk, Mrs. Davis earns $80,000 per year plus benefits. Since she's an elected official, she continues to receive these benefits even while in jail. I doubt Mrs. Davis would be able to earn a similar salary should she resign so she has no financial incentive to resign.

This is not just about her and her earning ability. Her authority to grant those licenses as dictated by the state is absolute. The county had another deputy issue licenses with an addendum signatory field where that deputy signed the certificate. However from her mouth in jail and from the mouth of her lawyer those certificates are null and void as they were not granted under her absolutely authority as granted to the powers of her specific office for the certificates, deputies under her authority by state law do not have the same authority in granting nor signing of licenses. Right now the state is looking into her claim to see if they did indeed issue non-valid certificates despite having a second official of the state sign them. This is not as simple as it looks.

[so-tex]

This statement is ignorant. The world was far more dangerous when God was at his peak. The world now is actually the safest its ever been. The most religious places in the world are Africa and the Middle East. They don't seem evil less too me. China with 90% non believers, Sweden with 78% non believers Canada, Hong Kong, Netherlands etc... are the safest Countries in the world with the most non believers. Even Israel has over 60% non believers. The US which has the most believers out of the wealthiest Countries seems to have most of the wacko's.

Notice the Countries with the most believers also have the lowest education. US is doing a poor job at educating its people and the gap between the rich and poor (fame and material possession obsessiveness) is what's causing America's 'evil'. It has nothing to do with God.

And you think the world is in a better place?

[sojomojo]

Mrs. Davis reminds me of former Alabama Governor George Wallace. In 1963, in defiance of a federal court ruling, Governor Wallace stood in the doorway of a segregated public school to block black students from enrolling. He became a hero of segregationist and was portrayed as a true believer who was willing to be a martyr as he stood in front of armed federal troops.

Instead of segregation, Mrs. Davis could quote Governor Wallace:

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say NO SAME SEX MARRIAGE now, NO SAME SEX MARRIAGE tomorrow, NO SAME SEX MARRIAGE forever.

[mtpockets]

. If you take an oath in court to tell the truth and you don't, you don't get fired, you... ready for this... go to jail. That anyone would try to spin it as somebody going to jail for her religion is dumb as phuk.

Stopped reading at this point,

sy2502 is spot on,

That's it in a nutshell.

[Juggertha]

Get paid by the state, do the state's work. get paid by the church, do the church's work.

Seems simple to me.

If your job conflicts with your beliefs, find a new one.

[Iceman1800]

As County Clerk, Mrs. Davis earns $80,000 per year plus benefits. Since she's an elected official, she continues to receive these benefits even while in jail. I doubt Mrs. Davis would be able to earn a similar salary should she resign so she has no financial incentive to resign.

This equates to the top 1% income bracket in her county.
Also, she has been married 4 times and divorced 3 times. This includes being pregnant with hubby #3's child while still married to hubby #1. A true beacon of morality standing behind her religious beliefs. Isn't adultry and divorce considered a sin? Old Testament rules would see her stoned to death.

[Brackneyc]

This equates to the top 1% income bracket in her county.
Also, she has been married 4 times and divorced 3 times. This includes being pregnant with hubby #3's child while still married to hubby #1. A true beacon of morality standing behind her religious beliefs. Isn't adultry and divorce considered a sin? Old Testament rules would see her stoned to death.

Minor details. She can stay right where she is.

In jail.

[Mr. Someday]

This equates to the top 1% income bracket in her county.
Also, she has been married 4 times and divorced 3 times. This includes being pregnant with hubby #3's child while still married to hubby #1. A true beacon of morality standing behind her religious beliefs. Isn't adultry and divorce considered a sin? Old Testament rules would see her stoned to death.

Nice find Iceman....it always seems to work out that way! lol Freakin' hypocrite standing behind her belief in the sanctity of marriage!!

[Xscoot]

And you think the world is in a better place?

There has never been a safer time to live in this world then now. The only reason it seems so fcked up is because we are bombarded with stories on social media. Stories that we would have not heard of before without such easy access to information. Humans whether they are God fearing or not have always been fcked up since the beginning of time. We are just not very nice in general. Your God made us flawed.

[Mark1T]

I agree with Iceman, too. I am a Christian, but this is not about religion. It is embarrassing that politicians are using it as an argument and even prominent Christians are saying she is a model for standing up to her beliefs. To deny people their rights under the law is not very Christian.

[7Seconds]

Kim Davis' problem here is she is confusing her name being placed on a marriage license as the official designated by the State to issue them with endorsement of the document itself and what it represents.

Her job was simple: Issue the documents when legally marriageable people apply, provide the necessary documentation and pay the fees. Her name on the license is merely acknowledgment that the requirements demanded by the State for the individuals applying for the license meet the criteria to receive it.

Nothing more. Nothing less. The beliefs of Kim Davis have nothing to do with it and no one with a sense of reason will confuse or assume her name on an official form as a representative of the State is in any way a sanction or approval of the acts of two persons legally exercising their right to obtain said document.


Here is the Kentucky Oath she took:

"I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God."

Nowhere in that Oath do I see an exception for religious belief. Or personal values. I see a requirement to handle properly and accurately file the records one has been entrusted with.

Her choice is simple: Comply or stand by the conviction of her beliefs and resign. Otherwise, she is a hypocrite who wishes to ignore the duties of her Oath and office that are inconvenient to her and collect a paycheck for holding that office regardless of what her preferences mean for the citizens of the State depending on her to complete her duties faithfully.

[Frnkd]

Discerning the meaning of the Present moment requires sobriety precisely because it`s radicalism. I was under the assumption in the Bill of rights, unalienable rights, one of them is freedom of Religion, not freedom from religion, so many People of Faith will now be dragged into Court if they do not Violate their consciences but violate mans law, Prosecuted and persecuted for their beliefs, fined, imprisoned, bankrupted, bakers, florists, little sisters of the poor etc, vilifying Americans unwilling to assent to a new orthodoxy, Religious Liberty is about more than just protection for religious organizations and persons, as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and central to their lives and faiths, Religious Liberty is about Freedom of action in matters of Religion, and the Liberty is directly correlated to the Civil RESTRAINTS placed upon religious practice, The First amendment GURANTEE`S the Freedom of the exercise of Religion .

How is it that a clerk is Arrested for the SO called violation of the SO called rule of Law, but Politicians Violate them Consistently and blatantly, For instance, "Sanctuary Cities" Violation of Federal Law, Border enforcement Etc, just because a Court issues an opinion doesn`t make it right, Dred Scott, Plessy V Ferguson, Koramtsu etc, The Court has no business getting into same sex marriage, Tyranny comes in many forms, How can it be the Law of the land that these judges swear to uphold, can be abused by them and we are forced to live by the law of the judiciary when they are clearly immoral ! Judicial Lawlessness can quickly cross into tyranny, being capricious and arbitrary is not the Rule of law, and certainly not Constitutional.

She is an elected official and some may argue she in effect exercised the "will of the People" because there are many who oppose same sex marriage, regardless of what 5 justices decided, progressives should never be taken seriously when arguing for the Rule of law, they could care less, again, See sanctuary Cities, or the felonies committed by Hillary Clinton, not too mention her husband`s numerous felonies, instead they throw stones at a clerk who inconvenienced a few homosexuals, but not a Secretary of State who placed our Nations National Security at risk, Rule of Law, What about the President and the Dream act, or unilaterally changing Obamacare, The IRS targeting American Citizens, or all those making excuses for the Riots, RULE OF LAW ? What about Louis Farakhan calling for 10K black men to start hunting Whites, Rule of law, who is kidding who

Where in the Constitution does it discuss or even give an Opinion on Marriage ? Gay Marriage is nothing but the will of the elites, so 5 People say it is and that`s that ? hardly, that is tyranny and injustice, defying the Will of the People, seizing power to rewrite ancient human institutions to satiate radical liberal ideology is not so much a law as it is a sham and a ruse. We are not morally obligated to cooperate with evil agendas and rampant tyranny in the guise of Federal Govt, Marriage is between and man and a Woman, like water is wet, gay marriage is a non sequitur, no matter what the Supreme Court Says, up until a month and half ago, ALL societies recognized the special differences between men and women, the Marriage between the 2 gives Birth{ and in actuality only can happen between a Man & a Woman} to New People and societies a Collection of People called Families ! Gay Couples cannot Reproduce

Kim Davis Does not want to Participate in something that is not true, So this IS a religious rights issue, more than that it is a right issue. Christians need to see others who will say I will not comply and are willing to risk and make a stand, the are a Myriad of Examples throughout history even when it means jeopardizing their own safety & Freedom, the truth is the truth no matter the sins of the one speaking it, and She owned up to her sins, she didn`t justify or rationalize her divorces, she is not guilty of hypocrisy, she has suffered her public embarrassment, she is and has been more vetted than some Politicians.

America is becoming Lawless and a Post Constitutional Land, rejecting Constitutional Law, God`s law, a Culture Consumed with Moral Chaos, confusion, heading into an abyss led by godless tyrants and all this is just an Observance and Opinion, and the Beauty of it is, I have to answer to Who I believe in and not another opinion and I tried to refrain from proselytizing

Simple answer, stop trying to practice your religion in a government job, a government that uses the constitution to govern. Freedom of religion as most Americans can trust means freedom from the government -laws or officials, from imposing a religious belief in performing their governmental duty. You have the right to believe in anything you want, say whatever you want- that is based on fact, and accept the consequence for it.

[Iceman1800]

Her joining the cult of born again Christians doesn't mean she can refuse to do her publicly held job. Other people in her office are doing it now. If she was opposed, she should have let them handle those cases.