Protein synthesis and training frequency

[Cecat7]

I read that protein synthesis lasted 48h after a workout, so I'm wondering why people actually prefer a 3 day split in stead of a full body workout (for those who can only go to the gym 3 times a week) or a 5-6 day split where every muscle is trained twice (if you have the time for it). It seems to me that people with a 3 day split are missing out on 50% of the gains, although they probably work each muscle harder each session. Can anyone clarify this using this example:

Hypothesis 1: training each muscle group once a week, 4 exercises, 4 sets each. This causes 100 damage to the muscle (microtears) and needs 48h to repair, but you aren't able to train again after 48h because you haven't fully recovered yet; so you wait a week.

Hypothesis 2: training each muscle group twice a week, 2 exercises, 4 sets each. That's half the work so 50 damage to the muscle that gets repaired within 48h and you are able to train again after 2-3 days.

The problem: if this were true, doing double the exercises causes double the muscle damage and will double the amount of growth/repairs needed, so technically if you wouldn't feel sore anymore you could hit every muscle group twice a week very hard. Or doesn't double the exercises (with consistent sets) cause double the amount of microtears (= damage done per exercise isn't linear) and is there a point at which any excess exercise/damage done to the muscle will not be repaired within 48h and will actually break down muscle?

Anyone with a scientifically correct answer to this?

Why am I asking this? Out of interest and for better understanding of how muscles grow.

[magician27]

yes , in theory working muscles twice a weeek is more optimal . but the thing is if you get 1x growth from training once a week, you wont get 2x growth from training twice a week. its more like 1.2x

[Cecat7]

yes , in theory working muscles twice a weeek is more optimal . but the thing is if you get 1x growth from training once a week, you wont get 2x growth from training twice a week. its more like 1.2x

I know, that's why I said both splits have the same training volume over the course of a week. But, how many more micro tears does training harder only once a week make and will all of those micro tears be repaired within that 48h window? Or is there a point at which doing more exercises and doing more damage will only result in more soreness rather than more protein synthesis and thus muscle growth?

[magician27]

i think training frequent is better to train your nervous system. that will get you stronger , and that will let you create more micro tears with more weight. stimulating muscles require certain intensity. and that intensity is not something you can maintain for long. after a while during your training, you are not creating all that much of a stimulus, rather just burning calories. first set or two brings you most of your gains. also more damage doesnt mean more muscle , the amount of muscle you will gain has a limit even if you can create microtears everytime

[Dan3317]

Or doesn't double the exercises (with consistent sets) cause double the amount of microtears (= damage done per exercise isn't linear) and is there a point at which any excess exercise/damage done to the muscle will not be repaired within 48h and will actually break down muscle?

You nailed it right here. After a certain point (different for everybody, but in the same ballpark I would say), more volume past a certain threshold doesn't attribute to a noticeable amount of microtears. This is where you get into the point of diminishing returns. After a certain amount of volume, you're just placing extra stress on joints and the CNS that will yield very tiny results, and for some people, they would think it's worth it. But if you're on a higher frequency routine, it's simply not a good idea because it can and will interfere with the next session where you hit the same muscle groups again. It's better to look at your training as a whole, rather than day to day. Would you rather make great progress over a training block? Or feel sore as heck for a few days because you demolished your chest with 15 sets of cable flies and interfere with progression on the big compound movements? Obviously the first scenario is better for growth.

[Cecat7]

i think training frequent is better to train your nervous system. that will get you stronger , and that will let you create more micro tears with more weight. stimulating muscles require certain intensity. and that intensity is not something you can maintain for long. after a while during your training, you are not creating all that much of a stimulus, rather just burning calories. first set or two brings you most of your gains. also more damage doesnt mean more muscle , the amount of muscle you will gain has a limit even if you can create microtears everytime

So if you have the time for it, training every muscle group twice a week but lighter than you would do once a week, with the total weekly volume actually being the same, is more optimal for gaining lean muscle mass (provided everything else like nutrition is in order)?

[Cecat7]

You nailed it right here. After a certain point (different for everybody, but in the same ballpark I would say), more volume past a certain threshold doesn't attribute to a noticeable amount of microtears. This is where you get into the point of diminishing returns. After a certain amount of volume, you're just placing extra stress on joints and the CNS that will yield very tiny results, and for some people, they would think it's worth it. But if you're on a higher frequency routine, it's simply not a good idea because it can and will interfere with the next session where you hit the same muscle groups again. It's better to look at your training as a whole, rather than day to day. Would you rather make great progress over a training block? Or feel sore as heck for a few days because you demolished your chest with 15 sets of cable flies and interfere with progression on the big compound movements? Obviously the first scenario is better for growth.

So there is no need to demolish your muscles once a week with 4-5 exercises, 3-5 sets each... After say the first 2-3 exercises, anything else is excessive and will actually do more damage than good (the point of diminishing returns)?

[ironwill2008]

Consider this--- MPS peaks at about 48 hours, then gradually tapers off over the next few days, dependent on the severity of the training. It doesn't just shut off like a light switch.

[chibito]

Hey opie!

DO YOUR OWN CHIT.

1)Try one system for 4 months.
2)Try the other system for 4 months.

Proceed to take on the one you LIKED the most.

My preference: mon wed frid
Chest legs back

Plus some accessories exercises.

[Dan3317]

So there is no need to demolish your muscles once a week with 4-5 exercises, 3-5 sets each... After say the first 2-3 exercises, anything else is excessive and will actually do more damage than good (the point of diminishing returns)?

I don't like to throw exact numbers of sets/movements in because it can vary so much, but yeah that's the concept I agree with. This is mainly why I like Upper/Lower splits the best because it helps keep the volume reasonable, you can hit movements fresher, and frequency remains high.

[blue9steel]

Here's some science for you:

Coordinated collagen and muscle protein synthesis in human patella tendon and quadriceps muscle after exercise.

The fractional synthetic rates of all proteins were elevated at 6 h and rose rapidly to peak at 24 h post exercise (tendon collagen (0.077% h(-1)), muscle collagen (0.054% h(-1)), myofibrillar protein (0.121% h(-1)), and sarcoplasmic protein (0.134% h(-1))). The rates decreased toward basal values by 72 h although rates of tendon collagen and myofibrillar protein synthesis remained elevated.

Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans.

Exercise resulted in significant increases above rest in muscle FSR (fractional synthesis rate) at all times: 3 h = 112%, 24 h = 65%, 48 h = 34% (P < 0.01).

A meta-analysis to determine the dose response for strength development

Untrained participants experience maximal gains by training each muscle group 3 d.wk and trained individuals 2 d.wk.

There is some debate on optimal frequency and it's often a trade off with other variables but in general I've read that roughly 3-5 days is generally the sweet spot for most trainees. That means a weekly frequency of about two times per week (or a bit more) is going to be the most beneficial from an MPS perspective. Once per week frequency isn't optimal for natural trainees, so generally I'd say any program that gets you a frequency of 1.5-2.5/wk is probably fine.

[Cecat7]

Here's some science for you:

Coordinated collagen and muscle protein synthesis in human patella tendon and quadriceps muscle after exercise.

The fractional synthetic rates of all proteins were elevated at 6 h and rose rapidly to peak at 24 h post exercise (tendon collagen (0.077% h(-1)), muscle collagen (0.054% h(-1)), myofibrillar protein (0.121% h(-1)), and sarcoplasmic protein (0.134% h(-1))). The rates decreased toward basal values by 72 h although rates of tendon collagen and myofibrillar protein synthesis remained elevated.

Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans.

Exercise resulted in significant increases above rest in muscle FSR (fractional synthesis rate) at all times: 3 h = 112%, 24 h = 65%, 48 h = 34% (P < 0.01).

A meta-analysis to determine the dose response for strength development

Untrained participants experience maximal gains by training each muscle group 3 d.wk and trained individuals 2 d.wk.

There is some debate on optimal frequency and it's often a trade off with other variables but in general I've read that roughly 3-5 days is generally the sweet spot for most trainees. That means a weekly frequency of about two times per week (or a bit more) is going to be the most beneficial from an MPS perspective. Once per week frequency isn't optimal for natural trainees, so generally I'd say any program that gets you a frequency of 1.5-2.5/wk is probably fine.

Thanks a lot for your response!

[Rsurf72]

Here's some science for you:

Coordinated collagen and muscle protein synthesis in human patella tendon and quadriceps muscle after exercise.

The fractional synthetic rates of all proteins were elevated at 6 h and rose rapidly to peak at 24 h post exercise (tendon collagen (0.077% h(-1)), muscle collagen (0.054% h(-1)), myofibrillar protein (0.121% h(-1)), and sarcoplasmic protein (0.134% h(-1))). The rates decreased toward basal values by 72 h although rates of tendon collagen and myofibrillar protein synthesis remained elevated.

Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans.

Exercise resulted in significant increases above rest in muscle FSR (fractional synthesis rate) at all times: 3 h = 112%, 24 h = 65%, 48 h = 34% (P < 0.01).

A meta-analysis to determine the dose response for strength development

Untrained participants experience maximal gains by training each muscle group 3 d.wk and trained individuals 2 d.wk.

There is some debate on optimal frequency and it's often a trade off with other variables but in general I've read that roughly 3-5 days is generally the sweet spot for most trainees. That means a weekly frequency of about two times per week (or a bit more) is going to be the most beneficial from an MPS perspective. Once per week frequency isn't optimal for natural trainees, so generally I'd say any program that gets you a frequency of 1.5-2.5/wk is probably fine.

Idk how you guys do 2x a week. I can barely recover from PPL with a rest day after every session. That's once a week. I do warm up sets of the first big compound then it's just 1 set per exercise. Few exercises and 9 sets or so per workout.

Bench, dips, fly, ohp, pushups, triceps, done

Row pullups rfly shrugs curls done

Squats calf abs done

Altho I like to max out with 8-10 reps. Maybe that's why I'm screwed when it comes to recovery
How are y'all doin this twice a week and recovering? Lbvs