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    Common Law / Case Law / Polycentric Law / Voluntary Law vs State Law

    This is a pretty good break down




    Polycentric law basically means multiple sources of law. It is a bottom up approach; essentially you decide what laws, courts, judges, etc, are most favorable to you and go with that rather than having someone place themselves above you and issue decrees you must obey whether you want to or not, even if it is a group of people. An easy to follow example of polycentric law in action would be this forum. The owner of this forum created a number of rules/laws that are applicable only to those who agreed to them. They cannot, for example, issue bans for another website, or tell you how to use your web access outside of this forum.

    This is a more in depth explanation for those with more interest:

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    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    So when you commit violence against someone, you can pick your judge, and court if arrested by the privatized police?
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    In it to win it USAPump's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    So when you commit violence against someone, you can pick your judge, and court if arrested by the privatized police?
    I can't wait for the AnCap paradise period to arrive so I can simply just pay off all of those and be free to continue roaming the streets.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    So when you commit violence against someone, you can pick your judge, and court if arrested by the privatized police?
    This is a common error in thinking. You only consider one side of the interaction because you have no understanding of the topic. Any courts, judges, police, etc, that cater to defending violent crimes for obvious reasons cut out any in the market that want protections from violent crime.

    Example: In a free society, Dave22Reborn decides that his blue costume gives him the right to break down his neighbor's door because they are smoking marijuana and he's got a problem with that. He's got the U.S. federal government Incorporated behind him. His neighbor is not a part of the U.S. Federal Government Incorporated. There is not a conflict between Dave's agency and the neighbor's agency.

    Dave's agency now has to defend it's actions in the market. How do you go about marketing for subscriptions to a service that breaks into peoples' homes for no good reason? Suppose Dave came in and murdered the guy....now his agency has to defend that in a free market. No one is going to be willing to pay murderers for protection from murderers, not even other murderers. There are some basic economic principles here that you would never understand, so just think of it like Ford deciding they're in a true free market now so they will just sell cars have have the engines fall out after a few thousand miles.
    Last edited by Stizzel; 05-17-2015 at 08:06 PM.
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    Originally Posted by USAPump View Post
    I can't wait for the AnCap paradise period to arrive so I can simply just pay off all of those and be free to continue roaming the streets.
    If you really think it's easier to pay off multiple companies that may go out of business at any time to be replaced by one or more new businesses than a single agency that everyone must obey and will never be removed or replaced then you should probably do humanity a favor and do your best not to procreate.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    If you really think it's easier to pay off multiple companies that may go out of business at any time to be replaced by one or more new businesses than a single agency that everyone must obey and will never be removed or replaced then you should probably do humanity a favor and do your best not to procreate.
    You're telling us that criminals won't donate money, for privatized police officers to look the other way, and for judges to excuse them?
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You're telling us that criminals won't donate money, for privatized police officers to look the other way, and for judges to excuse them?
    that already happens nowdays anyways. selective enforcement..
    i like to leave my signature blank
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You're telling us that criminals won't donate money, for privatized police officers to look the other way, and for judges to excuse them?
    Is your reading comprehension really that bad dave?
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Is your reading comprehension really that bad dave?
    I forgot, word of mouth would make this court go bankrupt....
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    I forgot, word of mouth would make this court go bankrupt....
    No, competition would.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You're telling us that criminals won't donate money, for privatized police officers to look the other way, and for judges to excuse them?
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/us/texas-affluenza-teen/
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    You honestly believe things like this wouldn't happen under Stizzel's utopia?
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You honestly believe things like this wouldn't happen under Stizzel's utopia?
    A system in which police that throw grenades at babies go out of business is not a utopia
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    A system in which police that throw grenades at babies go out of business is not a utopia
    So you believe in collective punishment?
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    So you believe in collective punishment?
    Who said anything about punishment? You've obviously never worked outside of government so this won't make sense to you, but if the market doesn't want what you've got for sale, you go out of business. That's just economics.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Who said anything about punishment? You've obviously never worked outside of government so this won't make sense to you, but if the market doesn't want what you've got for sale, you go out of business. That's just economics.
    So the judge will lose his customers when they don't like his verdict?
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    So the judge will lose his customers when they don't like his verdict?
    Yes. Would you pay a judge/court to protect you from criminals that sides with criminals? They are forced to issue decisions that are acceptable to all parties involved.

    There are also costs to consider. People who cause problems are expensive. If your client base is primarily criminals that means constantly fighting with all of your competition. it also means no one will cooperate with you. Like a cell phone company that cannot use the infrastructure owned by any other provider or an ISP that can only offer its own network rather than connect to the entire web. Even if it catered to hackers they wouldnt be interested for a number of reasons, one of them being the incredible cost.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Yes. Would you pay a judge/court to protect you from criminals that sides with criminals? They are forced to issue decisions that are acceptable to all parties involved.

    There are also costs to consider. People who cause problems are expensive. If your client base is primarily criminals that means constantly fighting with all of your competition. it also means no one will cooperate with you. Like a cell phone company that cannot use the infrastructure owned by any other provider or an ISP that can only offer its own network rather than connect to the entire web. Even if it catered to hackers they wouldnt be interested for a number of reasons, one of them being the incredible cost.
    So in essence the judge is being bribed by his customers, to side with his/her customers.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    So in essence the judge is being bribed by his customers, to side with his/her customers.
    I suppose, in the same sense comsumers "bribe" apple to give them a functional iphone.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    I suppose, in the same sense comsumers "bribe" apple to give them a functional iphone.

    So, if you don't like your iPhone, you can always return it for a refund, or toss it aside and ignore it. It provides you with no further obligations.

    If you don't like the decision of your hired judge, can you reject it for a refund, or simply ignore it as having no binding force on you? If the decision goes in your favor (as it almost certainly would if you paid the judge enough), would your opponent then be free to reject and disregard it?
    I'm out, standing in my field.

    64 and still a newbie.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    So, if you don't like your iPhone, you can always return it for a refund, or toss it aside and ignore it. It provides you with no further obligations.

    If you don't like the decision of your hired judge, can you reject it for a refund, or simply ignore it as having no binding force on you? If the decision goes in your favor (as it almost certainly would if you paid the judge enough), would your opponent then be free to reject and disregard it?
    That would depend on the terms you agree to, depending on the business. Apple has a return policy but its not without conditions, for example, and apple has a reputation for selling devices that operate as intended.

    I dont know why you think there's only one judge involved to pay off. More likely there will be two agencies that have to reach a decision. This happens all the time today; most disputes are settled out of court. You'd have to pay off the other guy's agency and you'd have to make it worth their while considering the enoous potential for loss in market share if it gets made public.

    Of course corruption is always a factor, but allowing people to decide who they trust limits its potential compared to an environment where they have no choice at all. In other words, if everyone was forced to use apple you could expect its quality to begin to decline, even if very slowly.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    That would depend on the terms you agree to, depending on the business.
    And who's going to enforce that agreement?
    I'm out, standing in my field.

    64 and still a newbie.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    And who's going to enforce that agreement?
    You are
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    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    So, if you don't like your iPhone, you can always return it for a refund, or toss it aside and ignore it. It provides you with no further obligations.

    If you don't like the decision of your hired judge, can you reject it for a refund, or simply ignore it as having no binding force on you? If the decision goes in your favor (as it almost certainly would if you paid the judge enough), would your opponent then be free to reject and disregard it?
    Two people are in a dispute in court, one guy contributes money to the judge, the other guy doesn't, who do you think the judge is going to side with?
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    You are
    With what? My private army? Wouldn't it have to be more powerful than your private army? If I have that advantage, there'd be no reason for me to go to court in the first place. I'd just have my people kick the asses of your people and call it justice.

    Or you would do the same to me. No legal system required, no civilization available.
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    Banned Stizzel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    With what? My private army? Wouldn't it have to be more powerful than your private army? If I have that advantage, there'd be no reason for me to go to court in the first place. I'd just have my people kick the asses of your people and call it justice.

    Or you would do the same to me. No legal system required, no civilization available.
    No, nothing like that. I will go into more detail later. In the mean time you can think about who enforces the constitution and why theres no money back guarantee.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    With what? My private army? Wouldn't it have to be more powerful than your private army? If I have that advantage, there'd be no reason for me to go to court in the first place. I'd just have my people kick the asses of your people and call it justice.

    Or you would do the same to me. No legal system required, no civilization available.
    Okay. Sorry for that short answer, that was me stuck in a parking lot on the freeway. I don't usually use my phone in the car but when there's literally no movement...eh.

    You are the enforcer because it's up to you to choose whether or not to accept. That means the onus is on the business to earn your trust. This could mean anything....depending on what it takes to earn your trust. Some may set up third party arbitration....which again leads to your level of trust with that arbitrator. Maybe they keep money in an escrow account and agree to a settlement for any violations...again administered by a third party you trust. Any maybe the business has a reputation you trust on its own. It's really up to you to determine what is required.

    But you support the current system in which others choose your rulers for you and everyone has to obey them whether they deliver on their promises or not, so I'm not sure why you're concerned about it.
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    I don't think I ever said I support "the current system". You're trying to raise a false dichotomy as if the only two available options are your concept and the status quo. That's not true, by a long shot. The logic you are using is the same as that of creationists who insist that if you can't resolve all the unknown issues of evolution at the moment, then the Book of Genesis is by default the proper alternative.

    What my argument has always been, and continues to be, is that government, in some form or another, is inevitable and inescapable in any societal interactions involving accumulated wealth and its production. This wealth will be regulated, by something or someone. Your alternative dispute resolution concept is futile, because you bring no means of enforcement to the table, other than the relative strength of the disputants. Even your idea of a third party escrow account is feasible only in the circumstance where an external entity exists to protect that third party against cheating by one or both of you(or another party altogether). Somewhere along the chain of interaction, there will have to be some entity with enforcement ability. That entity will be government. And on that level, you cannot opt out.

    I'm not arguing the form of that government. I'm not saying the government is good or bad. I'm just saying it exists, and will exist. If you could succeed in destroying the current government, a new one would rise to take its place, quicker than you can say "voluntarianism".

    Ironically enough, stances such as yours do more to ensure poor government than do people working to change and improve the existing one. If you don't make choices, choices will be made without you, or in spite of you. And what you think you're choosing is not a choice at all. It's a digression.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I don't think I ever said I support "the current system". You're trying to raise a false dichotomy as if the only two available options are your concept and the status quo. That's not true, by a long shot. The logic you are using is the same as that of creationists who insist that if you can't resolve all the unknown issues of evolution at the moment, then the Book of Genesis is by default the proper alternative.

    What my argument has always been, and continues to be, is that government, in some form or another, is inevitable and inescapable in any societal interactions involving accumulated wealth and its production. This wealth will be regulated, by something or someone. Your alternative dispute resolution concept is futile, because you bring no means of enforcement to the table, other than the relative strength of the disputants. Even your idea of a third party escrow account is feasible only in the circumstance where an external entity exists to protect that third party against cheating by one or both of you(or another party altogether). Somewhere along the chain of interaction, there will have to be some entity with enforcement ability. That entity will be government. And on that level, you cannot opt out.

    I'm not arguing the form of that government. I'm not saying the government is good or bad. I'm just saying it exists, and will exist. If you could succeed in destroying the current government, a new one would rise to take its place, quicker than you can say "voluntarianism".

    Ironically enough, stances such as yours do more to ensure poor government than do people working to change and improve the existing one. If you don't make choices, choices will be made without you, or in spite of you. And what you think you're choosing is not a choice at all. It's a digression.
    You support a free market in law?

    Well okay then. I cant say exactly what a market based legal system will offer because right now it doesnt exist in a meaningful way to the likes of you and I. International trade uses private courts backed by third party arbitration. It works great in transactions in the billions of dollars but I'm not sure if its applicable to day to day life.

    But the fact that you get to choose to say no to anyone that doesnt pass your personal litmus test is a guaranteed improvement over how we live now.

    Moreover, polycentric law is how humans choose to operate anytime they are free to choose.
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    The words "Conflict of Interest" spring to mind.

    Like I'm going to accept the "judgment" from Stizzel's pretend judge anyway. Good luck enforcing it.
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