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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by Weightaholic View Post
    The words "Conflict of Interest" spring to mind.

    Like I'm going to accept the "judgment" from Stizzel's pretend judge anyway. Good luck enforcing it.
    Not from my judge, from your own. And if you refuse to comply with the laws you agreed to then you could expect to be black listed and ostracized. Like people with bad credit that dont repay their loans.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by Weightaholic View Post
    The words "Conflict of Interest" spring to mind.

    Like I'm going to accept the "judgment" from Stizzel's pretend judge anyway. Good luck enforcing it.
    You mean it's hard to take a judgement seriously from a judge that works for a company?
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Not from my judge, from your own. And if you refuse to comply with the laws you agreed to then you could expect to be black listed and ostracized. Like people with bad credit that dont repay their loans.
    Public shaming from the locals, and small businesses...Oh well, the enclave next door is 2 miles away, I'll just move there.
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You mean it's hard to take a judgement seriously from a judge that works for a company?
    ITT we pretend government courts are not corporate entities
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Public shaming from the locals, and small businesses...Oh well, the enclave next door is 2 miles away, I'll just move there.
    Yes because you can totally avoid your reputation by moving.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Yes because you can totally avoid your reputation by moving.
    People do it all the time.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    ITT we pretend government courts are not corporate entities
    What's the name of their corporation, and can you purchase stock in this corporation?
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    You support a free market in law?

    Well okay then. I cant say exactly what a market based legal system will offer because right now it doesnt exist in a meaningful way to the likes of you and I. International trade uses private courts backed by third party arbitration. It works great in transactions in the billions of dollars but I'm not sure if its applicable to day to day life.

    But the fact that you get to choose to say no to anyone that doesnt pass your personal litmus test is a guaranteed improvement over how we live now.

    Moreover, polycentric law is how humans choose to operate anytime they are free to choose.
    I support a legal system that's subject to the people who are subject to it, and who ultimately will define it and change it as society and technology evolves. I also support a legal system that recognizes fundamental human rights and does not try to violate them. With those caveats, I don't care if it's free market, spontaneous emergence, invented in a laboratory, negotiated at a Constitutional Convention, or delivered from on high on stone tablets at Mt. Sinai.

    If you're simply saying that arbitration by fair third parties is preferable to a debilitating drawn out civil court case, then I agree. Your example of international trade is interesting. But those examples only work because they are backed by a consistent, known enforcement mechanism that prevents the arbitrary reneging on agreements. Personal contracts and social compacts have value only because they have enforcement mechanisms. You may get to say "no" in advance to a particular judge or arbitration offer, but once an agreement is made you don't get to say "no" to upholding your end of it.

    The polycentric law that you are talking about, the ones humans choose when they are free to, are all valid only under the recognition and authority of a government that provides them with the weight of enforcement. Take that enforcement ability away, and you are back to the biker gangs of Waco for your voluntary, polycentric law. Not too many will choose that.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Not from my judge, from your own. And if you refuse to comply with the laws you agreed to then you could expect to be black listed and ostracized. Like people with bad credit that dont repay their loans.
    Only little people get blacklisted. You forget the power of marketing.
    I'm out, standing in my field.

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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    People do it all the time.
    It has to require more than moving. A credit report uses more info than just name and address. And most people would opt to play along rather than move anyway. These kinds of settlements happen all the time.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    What's the name of their corporation, and can you purchase stock in this corporation?
    This is copied from federal statutes:

    (15) “United States” means—
    (A) a Federal corporation;
    (B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
    (C) an instrumentality of the United States
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Only little people get blacklisted. You forget the power of marketing.
    Actually businesses blacklist each other all the time, but the question was "what if I dont comply with the judges' decision".
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I support a legal system that's subject to the people who are subject to it, and who ultimately will define it and change it as society and technology evolves. I also support a legal system that recognizes fundamental human rights and does not try to violate them. With those caveats, I don't care if it's free market, spontaneous emergence, invented in a laboratory, negotiated at a Constitutional Convention, or delivered from on high on stone tablets at Mt. Sinai.

    If you're simply saying that arbitration by fair third parties is preferable to a debilitating drawn out civil court case, then I agree. Your example of international trade is interesting. But those examples only work because they are backed by a consistent, known enforcement mechanism that prevents the arbitrary reneging on agreements. Personal contracts and social compacts have value only because they have enforcement mechanisms. You may get to say "no" in advance to a particular judge or arbitration offer, but once an agreement is made you don't get to say "no" to upholding your end of it.

    The polycentric law that you are talking about, the ones humans choose when they are free to, are all valid only under the recognition and authority of a government that provides them with the weight of enforcement. Take that enforcement ability away, and you are back to the biker gangs of Waco for your voluntary, polycentric law. Not too many will choose that.
    Can you give me some examples of fundamental human rights?

    Gangs kill each other all the time. So does the mafia. I fully support your decision not to join them as well as your right to make that decision.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Can you give me some examples of fundamental human rights?

    Gangs kill each other all the time. So does the mafia. I fully support your decision not to join them as well as your right to make that decision.
    Right to self-determination
    Right to liberty
    Right to due process of law
    Right to freedom of movement
    Right to freedom of thought
    Right to freedom of religion
    Right to freedom of expression
    Right to peaceably assemble
    Right to freedom of association
    Right to equality under the law
    Right to education
    Right to freedom from cruel and unusual punishment
    Right to presumption of innocence for accused
    Right to privacy

    And yes, gangs and gangsters kill each other all the time, as well as killing innocents. One of the primary purposes of law enforcement is to stop these criminals and bring them to justice. I wouldn't want to be under a system that allows gangsterism to go unchecked.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Right to self-determination
    Right to liberty
    Right to due process of law
    Right to freedom of movement
    Right to freedom of thought
    Right to freedom of religion
    Right to freedom of expression
    Right to peaceably assemble
    Right to freedom of association
    Right to equality under the law
    Right to education
    Right to freedom from cruel and unusual punishment
    Right to presumption of innocence for accused
    Right to privacy

    And yes, gangs and gangsters kill each other all the time, as well as killing innocents. One of the primary purposes of law enforcement is to stop these criminals and bring them to justice. I wouldn't want to be under a system that allows gangsterism to go unchecked.
    Your first right pretty much encompasses the rest. It's both rational and empirical. Thumbs up from me overall.
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  16. #46
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Your first right pretty much encompasses the rest. It's both rational and empirical. Thumbs up from me overall.
    Most of it comes from the United Nations Declaration on Human rights. Brought to you by the one world government people.

    It's an odd position for me to take, because government can certainly violate all those rights, and so can other individuals. But by the same token, only government can protect them. Just not the same government that would violate them.

    The question isn't government vs no government, the question is what government can we create that will accomplish this task?
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Most of it comes from the United Nations Declaration on Human rights. Brought to you by the one world government people.

    It's an odd position for me to take, because government can certainly violate all those rights, and so can other individuals. But by the same token, only government can protect them. Just not the same government that would violate them.

    The question isn't government vs no government, the question is what government can we create that will accomplish this task?
    Is it acceptable for the humans we call 'government' violate human rights or should this be viewed in the same light as any other human violating human rights?

    I assume all humans are equally human?
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    World renowned bad ass Hans Herman Hoppe on free market law and law enforcement.

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    I just discovered this...wow. Should have just posted this into the OP.

    http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Private_law

    Vigilante justice

    Local governments were established fairly rapidly in some places in the Western frontier. State and federal officials also appeared on the scene. However, in several instances the resulting law enforcement was so ineffective or so corrupt that private citizens had to reestablish law and order through vigilante organizations. There were at least 300 historical vigilante movements in the United States and its Western territories.

    With the swelling of San Francisco's population during the early period of the gold rush the situation began to get out of hand. The public law enforcement apparatus simply could not handle the rising tide of crime. Even those criminals who were caught frequently escaped or were released before a trial could be arranged.

    Some 3,000 citizens gathered in early June, 1851, during the trial of a suspected arsonist, and during the next few days separate small groups of businessmen spontaneously began meeting and discussing the possibility of forming a "committee of vigilance." The committee officially made ninety-one arrests during its 100 days of action. Four were hanged, one was whipped (a not at all uncommon punishment at that time), fourteen were deported to Australia, and fourteen were informally ordered to leave California. Fifteen were handed over to public authorities, and forty-one were discharged. Crime had declined so rapidly that for a short period, San Francisco was a city of considerable order and safety. The committee suspended action as of September, 1851.

    By the spring of 1855, "the criminals were making out better than the honest men in the political atmosphere of San Francisco. Between November 1855 and May 1856 more than 100 murders were committed in San Francisco. The reactivated committee hanged two politicians for murder. The committee was active for over three months, its membership growing to 8,000 (in those three months there were two murders in San Francisco as compared to the more than 100 that took place during the previous six months). During June and July the committee put many of the city's undesirables on outbound ships. On July 29 two more murderers were hanged. On August 18, 1856, the committee on vigilance disbanded.[8]
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    I just discovered this...wow. Should have just posted this into the OP.

    http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Private_law



    How would organised crime fit into this?
    “Threats to freedom of speech, writing and action, though often trivial in isolation, are cumulative in their effect and, unless checked, lead to a general disrespect for the rights of the citizen.” - George Orwell
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    I just discovered this...wow. Should have just posted this into the OP.

    http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Private_law



    Cool! Lynch mobs for the win! Now I'm really convinced!

    I'm out, standing in my field.

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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Is it acceptable for the humans we call 'government' violate human rights or should this be viewed in the same light as any other human violating human rights?

    I assume all humans are equally human?
    Apparently not the ones that you've decided to subject to vigilante justice.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Apparently not the ones that you've decided to subject to vigilante justice.
    I decided? The local government began looting and killing like any gang of thugs and these people stood up to protect the innocent.

    Let me know when you figure out whether or not humans are human.
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    Originally Posted by Canadian2point0 View Post
    How would organised crime fit into this?
    The mafia has actually picked up the slack for the state a few times in history. When the determination of what is and isnt legal, what space is there for organized crime? These are people that cater to the black market aka illegal demand, which no longer exists.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Cool! Lynch mobs for the win! Now I'm really convinced!

    If that lynch mob were wearing badges and uniforms, would they still be human? Would their opposition be evil vigilantes?
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    The mafia has actually picked up the slack for the state a few times in history. When the determination of what is and isnt legal, what space is there for organized crime? These are people that cater to the black market aka illegal demand, which no longer exists.
    You're saying there wouldn't be a black market(stolen items etc), therefore no organised crime?
    Last edited by Canadian2point0; 05-20-2015 at 10:34 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    I decided? The local government began looting and killing like any gang of thugs and these people stood up to protect the innocent.

    Let me know when you figure out whether or not humans are human.
    No. The government was corrupt and the vigilantes did the same things that the government had been doing. Without, of course, any sort of due process. Your article says they hung two politicians for murder. But who tried them? What was the evidence? Did they have defense counsel? Was there a presumption of innocence? How do you know that this wasn't simply a convenient way to get rid of politicians they disliked? For a skeptic you seem quite trusting. Your article also said they handed over many to "public authorities", so they obviously had no intention of ridding themselves of government.

    In fact, they disbanded voluntarily twice, making it obvious that when all was said and done, they actually preferred the presence of a government with enforcement powers. I see nothing in your link that made anything "voluntary". I see that a lot of people were imprisoned and deported against their will. Most of them were probably guilty of something. But were they all? What's the best way to separate the innocent from the guilty, the rule of law or the rule of the mob?

    You can argue that in an extreme case, the rule of the mob was necessary because there was no law available. But that is nothing like arguing that the rule of law is undesirable in itself. The people of San Francisco still desired and needed a stable government that enforced the law, not a mob of vigilantes.
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    Originally Posted by Canadian2point0 View Post
    You're saying there wouldn't be a black market(stolen items etc), therefore no organised crime?
    No, Im saying it would be so different I'm not sure what it would look like. Today organized crime operates primarily in providing illegal services....drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc. There would no longer be a black market for these things.

    There will always be people like elrond that have no qualms about hurting people and they may persist in providing violent crime like assassinations, theft, etc. But tgey'd be faced with multiple security agencies that not only dont have to deal with enforcing idiotic laws anymore but coukd also go out of business if they fail to stop these crimes, it would be very difficult.
    Last edited by Stizzel; 05-21-2015 at 06:03 AM.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    No. The government was corrupt and the vigilantes did the same things that the government had been doing. Without, of course, any sort of due process. Your article says they hung two politicians for murder. But who tried them? What was the evidence? Did they have defense counsel? Was there a presumption of innocence? How do you know that this wasn't simply a convenient way to get rid of politicians they disliked? For a skeptic you seem quite trusting. Your article also said they handed over many to "public authorities", so they obviously had no intention of ridding themselves of government.

    In fact, they disbanded voluntarily twice, making it obvious that when all was said and done, they actually preferred the presence of a government with enforcement powers. I see nothing in your link that made anything "voluntary". I see that a lot of people were imprisoned and deported against their will. Most of them were probably guilty of something. But were they all? What's the best way to separate the innocent from the guilty, the rule of law or the rule of the mob?

    You can argue that in an extreme case, the rule of the mob was necessary because there was no law available. But that is nothing like arguing that the rule of law is undesirable in itself. The people of San Francisco still desired and needed a stable government that enforced the law, not a mob of vigilantes.
    The committee for vigilance had them executed. I think you have watched too many westerns. You also didnt click that link; the western territories resorted to vigilantes when the federal government began setting up shop and ****ing everything up. They already had their own courts and legal processes.

    I think you need to watch less westerns snd instead keep working on figuring out whether or not humans are human.
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    An interesting read on the Ifugao tribe in the philippines:
    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4080...07-h.htm#ch5.4

    This is a tribal community of about 250,000 who live without a state yet they have established legal systems based on cultural norms and taboos.

    Many of their practices are barbaric and stupid, as can be expected of any primitive pagan society, yet they are overall at least as peaceful as a western civilization if not more so.

    They have no codified law, no political organization of any kind, yet the hobbesian war of all against all never emerges.
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