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  1. #61
    Registered User NumeroOnce's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    I absolutely agree.. *I* started out in a deficit myself, so you're not telling me shiit about it. It is what it is though, and I rose above it. I didn't have that slavery crutch to lean on either.
    Can your deficit be at least partially attributed to government supported systems of racial subjugation and its aftermath?

    I don't think slavery should be used as a crutch, but an explanation that allows for fuller understanding. I don't advocate that poor black people repeat what I'm saying as an excuse, but use it to gain a fuller understanding of their situation which should make it easier to escape it.

    Tell me something... if they put her on the $20 bill, is it still going to be worth $20? If so then I could give two fux if you put her picture on it. Put Aunt Jemimah or Richard Pryor on it for all I care.
    Let's not get carried away here... you'd be outraged and I'd be scratching my head if Richard Pryor was on a bill lol. But pretty much what I said before... I don't really care, and I'm not going to boycott $20 bills or anything. But I think it would be a positive move to diversify the likenesses on them and replace them with more ideal, less controversial characters.
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  2. #62
    Jacques Rhott Bushmaster's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    Can your deficit be at least partially attributed to government supported systems of racial subjugation and its aftermath?
    WTF difference does it make? I was born into, and grew up in absolute poverty, and neither you or anybody else can say I somehow had it *better* than anybody, for any reason.

    I don't think slavery should be used as a crutch,
    But yet it finds its way into these discussions somehow, doesn't it. Just last week there was that article with Karee-Abdul-Jabbar blaming the Baltimore riots on poverty as a result of it.

    Let's not get carried away here... you'd be outraged and I'd be scratching my head if Richard Pryor was on a bill lol.
    On the contrary, I love Richard Pryor. Comedians today eat shiit compared to him and it wouldn't bother me at all if he was on a $20 bill. As long as it's still worth $20 then zero fux will be given.
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  3. #63
    Registered User RIKTER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    Because in America, the alleged land of equal opportunity, nobody should have to start off at a deficit in the first place. If America rewrote it's documents to say "Sorry, some people have to start off at a disadvantage," at least America wouldn't be hypocritical.
    This deficit you speak of, has less to do with race/privilege, and more to do with being born to young unwed uneducated single mothers…that, and that alone, puts one behind the 8 ball, and as a result are playing catch up for many years to come…blacks are disproportionately represented within that "family" structure, not because of slavery, but rather poor choices…and more importantly, a generational continuation of choosing the same destructive lifestyle.
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  4. #64
    Registered User NumeroOnce's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    WTF difference does it make? I was born into, and grew up in absolute poverty, and neither you or anybody else can say I somehow had it *better* than anybody, for any reason.


    On the contrary, I love Richard Pryor. Comedians today eat shiit compared to him and it wouldn't bother me at all if he was on a $20 bill. As long as it's still worth $20 then zero fux will be given.
    You may not have had it better, but you don't have an ancestral history of government supported subjugation to work against. It's difficult to struggle to make your way out of a situation when you know the government of the country you live in contributed to putting you in that situation. People shouldn't use that as an excuse to not try to improve their situation, but it does help explain how they got into their situation, and the government should also show accountability for it's role.

    Originally Posted by RIKTER View Post
    This deficit you speak of, has less to do with race/privilege, and more to do with being born to young unwed uneducated single mothers…that, and that alone, puts one behind the 8 ball, and as a result are playing catch up for many years to come…blacks are disproportionately represented within that "family" structure, not because of slavery, but rather poor choices…and more importantly, a generational continuation of choosing the same destructive lifestyle.
    True... the sad thing is that kids born into these situations are pretty much doomed to repeat them, or at least not do much better. Children's behavior later in life is strongly shaped by early-life influences, and the adverse behaviors expressed later in life are basically mental illnesses. The problem is, mental health services either are less obtainable and/or underutilized in the black community.
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    You may not have had it better, but you don't have an ancestral history of government supported subjugation to work against. It's difficult to struggle to make your way out of a situation when you know the government of the country you live in contributed to putting you in that situation. People shouldn't use that as an excuse to not try to improve their situation, but it does help explain how they got into their situation, and the government should also show accountability for it's role.
    40-50 years ago that would have been a valid point. Today though, we've got the grandkids, and great-grandkids of people who lived through the jim crow era, and that is absolutely not a valid excuse for anything. Nobody is held back, kept out of, or prevented from anything. Not anymore.

    You may not have had it better, but you don't have an ancestral history of government supported subjugation to work against. It's difficult to struggle to make your way out of a situation when you know the government of the country you live in contributed to putting you in that situation.
    Again, WTF difference does it make? I had my struggles, and maybe someone in another town had theirs, while 4-5 people somewhere else had theirs? So what? It's what you do with the choices you have, and how you play the hand you're dealt.
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  6. #66
    Registered User RIKTER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    You may not have had it better, but you don't have an ancestral history of government supported subjugation to work against. It's difficult to struggle to make your way out of a situation when you know the government of the country you live in contributed to putting you in that situation. People shouldn't use that as an excuse to not try to improve their situation, but it does help explain how they got into their situation, and the government should also show accountability for it's role.
    Except thats reversed now. The progressive politicians blacks tend to vote for, have a decades long track recored of implementing/supporting policies that almost guarantee that those born in, also die in the same neighborhoods. If you had the klan in charge of inner cities, they would look exactly the same..


    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    True... the sad thing is that kids born into these situations are pretty much doomed to repeat them, or at least not do much better. Children's behavior later in life is strongly shaped by early-life influences, and the adverse behaviors expressed later in life are basically mental illnesses. The problem is, mental health services either are less obtainable and/or underutilized in the black community.
    So we can agree then, we can put less emphasis on race, and more on the breakdown, of the greatest thing any unborn child could possible have…the nuclear family.
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by RIKTER View Post
    So we can agree then, we can put less emphasis on race, and more on the breakdown, of the greatest thing any unborn child could possible have…the nuclear family.
    Yes, 100%.
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  8. #68
    Registered User NumeroOnce's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    40-50 years ago that would have been a valid point. Today though, we've got the grandkids, and great-grandkids of people who lived through the jim crow era, and that is absolutely not a valid excuse for anything. Nobody is held back, kept out of, or prevented from anything. Not anymore.

    Again, WTF difference does it make? I had my struggles, and maybe someone in another town had theirs, while 4-5 people somewhere else had theirs? So what? It's what you do with the choices you have, and how you play the hand you're dealt.
    It's not as if jim crow attitudes disappeared the minute became illegal. They have been fading, but the effects are still there. For example, an old southern jim crow era holdover employer, or maybe even their child who inherited racial attitudes, might not hire somebody because of their skin color but can claim its for other reasons to be pc.

    The difference is... why would anybody be motivated to succeed under a government where success was once determined by how many slaves one owns? A government that never attempted to rectify the situations it created? And perhaps American ideals of success differ from those of people who's ancestors didn't come here voluntarily.

    edit: A good summary for my thoughts is that minorities have deal with extra mental hurdles in addition to some tangible hurdles resulting from our nation's racial history.

    Originally Posted by RIKTER View Post
    Except thats reversed now. The progressive politicians blacks tend to vote for, have a decades long track recored of implementing/supporting policies that almost guarantee that those born in, also die in the same neighborhoods. If you had the klan in charge of inner cities, they would look exactly the same..

    So we can agree then, we can put less emphasis on race, and more on the breakdown, of the greatest thing any unborn child could possible have…the nuclear family.
    There's not too much voter turnout in the black community, except maybe for Obama's elections, but yes, government policies have also hurt black communities.

    I'll say that the problems originated because of race, but evolved into other issues while discrimination declined. You're right, the nuclear family breakdown is probably the leading issue today, and since it is cyclical in nature it's difficult to solve. That's why most of the efforts to help these communities should focus on children in the educational system.
    Last edited by NumeroOnce; 05-14-2015 at 03:02 PM.
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  9. #69
    Jacques Rhott Bushmaster's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    The difference is... why would anybody be motivated to succeed under a government where success was once determined by how many slaves one owns?
    Again with the slavery excuse lol... just wow.

    With the exception of people who were born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouth, the rest of us in this country have but two options. Do whatever it takes to succeed - or don't and fall by the wayside.

    Now, if someone chooses the latter option then that is certainly their right. Just don't point fingers at anybody else for it. So if somebody isn't motivated to succeed because their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a slave in 1843..? That's 100% on them bro. WTF should I care?
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    Originally Posted by Epilerik View Post
    I do find it ironic how conservatives always go on about respecting the law, even if it's unjust, but then they glamorize the founding fathers, abolishionists, MLK Jr, Jesus, etc.
    Can you imagine what the FBI/DHS would do to Jesus? The head of an entire organization defying the law. They wouldnt crucify him, they'd put him into a federal rape pit while Hannity and the right pound their chests about murican freedom.
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  11. #71
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    The difference is... why would anybody be motivated to succeed under a government where success was once determined by how many slaves one owns?
    How about the "rewards" of success itself? Owning a nice home, saving for retirement, being able to take nice vacations, and send your children to college? That's the American Dream, right? So why the hell would anybody let what the government did 200 years ago hold them back from it???

    And perhaps American ideals of success differ from those of people who's ancestors didn't come here voluntarily.
    So how do they define it then?
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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    Again with the slavery excuse lol... just wow.

    With the exception of people who were born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouth, the rest of us in this country have but two options. Do whatever it takes to succeed - or don't and fall by the wayside.
    As suggested before, perhaps American ideals of success differ from those of people who's ancestors didn't come here voluntarily. A large portion of our population had no influence in determining this country's culture and direction. Immigrants that come here willingly are more likely to bow down and accept the culture.

    Now, if someone chooses the latter option then that is certainly their right. Just don't point fingers at anybody else for it. So if somebody isn't motivated to succeed because their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a slave in 1843..? That's 100% on them bro. WTF should I care?
    I'm sure nobody thinks that simply, but that fact would help to explain their current situation, as anybody of any color's ancestral history does. It shouldn't be used as an excuse to not try, but it helps explain why it is extra-difficult for some to overcome their situations.

    I'll put it like this: I have no problems with finger-pointing to the government as the government did little to nothing to rectify situations it created, but that finger-pointing shouldn't be allowed unless somebody is taking active steps to change their situation too, instead of waiting for help.
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  13. #73
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    As suggested before, perhaps American ideals of success differ from those of people who's ancestors didn't come here voluntarily. A large portion of our population had no influence in determining this country's culture and direction. Immigrants that come here willingly are more likely to bow down and accept the culture.
    Immigrants that come here willingly vs. people that were born here, you mean. People who are 10+ generation American citizens - and you say they don't want to accept the culture? Is that the crux of the problem then? That the ones who are failing do so because they really are bothered by slavery, and because they really don't want to be here??

    If that's the case then I can offer an extremely simple solution. GTFO. I'd also be willing to bet finding somebody to buy a one-way ticket to Africa or wherever wouldn't be that hard to find either. In fact, I'd say you could set up a gofundme account for it as a neat little social experiment just to see what happens lol.

    In before its not that easy.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You're going to honestly say that you look at the person on your money?
    Only to determine their skin color. Then he changes to off-topic attempts at insults when called out on it.
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    I can see it now, every ones lives will change for the worse if she gets put on the bill. Def have to boycott it.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    Again with the slavery excuse lol... just wow.

    With the exception of people who were born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouth, the rest of us in this country have but two options. Do whatever it takes to succeed - or don't and fall by the wayside.

    Now, if someone chooses the latter option then that is certainly their right. Just don't point fingers at anybody else for it. So if somebody isn't motivated to succeed because their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a slave in 1843..? That's 100% on them bro. WTF should I care?
    So they shouldn't be motivated to succeed, or to better themselves, but they should be motivated to bitch about income inequality, jobs, housing, lack of businesses, etc?
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  18. #78
    Navy-Marine Corps Team nutsy54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Aesthetical View Post
    I can see it now, every ones lives will change for the worse if she gets put on the bill. Def have to boycott it.
    Why are you making such ridiculous claims?
    - "How do those guys on submarines hold their breath for so long?" - Kelly Bundy
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    Banned Sandwich32's Avatar
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    Dave22Reborn, Bushmaster and Rocker1 all have the STRANGEST obsession with race

    These dudes cant get enough
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    Jacques Rhott Bushmaster's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sandwich32 View Post
    Dave22Reborn, Bushmaster and Rocker1 all have the STRANGEST obsession with race

    These dudes cant get enough
    I have white guilt bro... It keeps me up some nights.
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=177582331&p=1590588471&viewfull=1#post1590588471

    #PrayForGoo
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    qUALITY POSTER brighamw's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    I have white guilt bro... It keeps me up some nights.
    I feel your pain bro!

    Some times my black guilt just overwhelms me & I can't function...

    E-bro hugs...
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  22. #82
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    I gained a new found respect for Bushmaster on a personal level. Bush, I commend you buddy. I'm glad you have risen up. However, I do think you are like a brick wall on these issues because you can conflate individual will to societal influences. I think Numero was taking about a holistic societal issue and you feel slighted because you personally saw trial. It is not about individuals, but society.

    I would encourage you to remove your blinkers and stop thinking ONLY slavery or laws ONLY from 150 years ago the impediment for most of your fellow Black South Carolinians for example.

    Then again what is needed here is perspective or at least an honest willingness to acknowledge that it exists differently for other people; something you have unfortunately shown a real lack of showcasing.

    With that said, the topic is about a campaign to put a woman on the currency and that woman, as voted for by many more Whites than Blacks I would wager, being Harriet Tubman.
    ...
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    Registered User AxlWRose's Avatar
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    Will just have to request Jackson 20s if this passes.
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    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AxlWRose View Post
    Will just have to request Jackson 20s if this passes.
    It won't pass.
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  25. #85
    Registered User NumeroOnce's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rocker1 View Post
    I gained a new found respect for Bushmaster on a personal level. Bush, I commend you buddy. I'm glad you have risen up. However, I do think you are like a brick wall on these issues because you can conflate individual will to societal influences. I think Numero was taking about a holistic societal issue and you feel slighted because you personally saw trial. It is not about individuals, but society.

    I would encourage you to remove your blinkers and stop thinking ONLY slavery or laws ONLY from 150 years ago the impediment for most of your fellow Black South Carolinians for example.

    Then again what is needed here is perspective or at least an honest willingness to acknowledge that it exists differently for other people; something you have unfortunately shown a real lack of showcasing.

    With that said, the topic is about a campaign to put a woman on the currency and that woman, as voted for by many more Whites than Blacks I would wager, being Harriet Tubman.
    Pretty much this, well put.


    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    Immigrants that come here willingly vs. people that were born here, you mean. People who are 10+ generation American citizens - and you say they don't want to accept the culture? Is that the crux of the problem then? That the ones who are failing do so because they really are bothered by slavery, and because they really don't want to be here??
    Should they have to accept the culture if they don't want to? Minorities are expected to assimilate, but I don't expect anyone who's relatives weren't brought to the country by choice to have to accept the culture.

    But no, I don't think the thought of slavery directly that makes most people not want to be here, but it provides a different perspective and unfortunately came with a bunch of conditions that makes it more uncomfortable than for others to stay here. Across history and generations certain traits get ingrained in a culture which are difficult to shed. As suggested by rocker, your talking more about what people in bad situations can do to escape them, and all of that is true, but it's not as easy said as done for some compared to others.


    If that's the case then I can offer an extremely simple solution. GTFO. I'd also be willing to bet finding somebody to buy a one-way ticket to Africa or wherever wouldn't be that hard to find either. In fact, I'd say you could set up a gofundme account for it as a neat little social experiment just to see what happens lol.

    In before its not that easy.
    So I'm not allowed to claim that saving up to begin a new life in a new country while struggling to get by in America isn't easy?
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  26. #86
    Registered User RIKTER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    Should they have to accept the culture if they don't want to? Minorities are expected to assimilate, but I don't expect anyone who's relatives weren't brought to the country by choice to have to accept the culture.

    But no, I don't think the thought of slavery directly that makes most people not want to be here, but it provides a different perspective and unfortunately came with a bunch of conditions that makes it more uncomfortable than for others to stay here. Across history and generations certain traits get ingrained in a culture which are difficult to shed. As suggested by rocker, your talking more about what people in bad situations can do to escape them, and all of that is true, but it's not as easy said as done for some compared to others.
    Reading some of your posts in this thread, you seem to support the worse type of racism thats so prevalent among white liberals….. its the soft bigotry of low expectations regarding black people..
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    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RIKTER View Post
    Reading some of your posts in this thread, you seem to support the worse type of racism thats so prevalent among white liberals….. its the soft bigotry of low expectations regarding black people..
    I believe he's Latino. Still doesn't change his attitude though and it it pretty sad. In another thread he suggested reperations.
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    Registered User NumeroOnce's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    I believe he's Latino. Still doesn't change his attitude though and it it pretty sad. In another thread he suggested reperations.
    Reparations would do little to fix black communities, but would be a demonstration of guilt and lack of accountability for slavery by the government. I know plenty of black people criticize the fact that their ancestors never got reparations, although they don't necessarily want them for themselves.

    Originally Posted by RIKTER View Post
    Reading some of your posts in this thread, you seem to support the worse type of racism thats so prevalent among white liberals….. its the soft bigotry of low expectations regarding black people..
    Simply put, if you grow up in a dysfunctional inner city environment, you're likely to have mental health issues. My only bias is that I work in the psych field, and see these issues in terms of genetic/environmental interplay. You underestimate the ability of experiencing adverse situations growing up to directly change the way your genes are expressed. These adverse adaptations are mostly rooted in childhood, which is why I am more sympathetic, and why I say efforts to fix these communities should be focused on schools and other activities for young people. When you grow up in these environments, that's all you know. By the time they are adults, maladaptive behaviors are too ingrained and will take more effort to overcome. The direct/indirect racism they may face as adults is a secondary issue, but those both contribute to the deficit inner-city blacks are put in.
    Last edited by NumeroOnce; 05-14-2015 at 10:16 PM.
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    Registered User RIKTER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NumeroOnce View Post
    Simply put, if you grow up in a dysfunctional inner city environment, you're likely to have mental health issues. My only bias is that I work in the psych field, and see these issues in terms of genetic/environmental interplay. You underestimate the ability of experiencing adverse situations growing up to directly change the way your genes are expressed. These adverse adaptations are mostly rooted in childhood, which is why I am more sympathetic, and why I say efforts to fix these communities should be focused on schools and other activities for young people. When you grow up in these environments, that's all you know. By the time they are adults, maladaptive behaviors are too ingrained and will take more effort to overcome. The direct/indirect racism they may face as adults is a secondary issue, but those both contribute to the deficit inner-city blacks are put in.
    Kid, I didn't read about those black inner-city areas or see them on TV…I was a skinny white kid who grew up in the middle of it…and I don't want to be mean/belittling to you, but for people like you, who over intellectualize everything…boy, do they see you coming a mile away because people like you are easily manipulated…you might almost feel like many are reading from the same script…and guess what ...especially if you have a say, etc if their kid gets some form of SSI/disability...
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  30. #90
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Okay NumeroOnce, you keep talking about schools, how would they fix the problem? Because honestly, their schools are fine, they just don't go to school, or care about learning, or doing any of the work.
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