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  1. #1
    Viking of the Misc fightnak3d's Avatar
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    Here is my explanation of why the anti/pro abortion debate is so complicated.

    The basic argument between pro-abortionists and anti-abortionists is that the child isn't a viable human until conception for anti-abortionists, and birth (usually) for pro-abortionists. Simple enough.

    So let's get into some philosophy. What anti's are ACTUALLY saying is that the child has moral worth immediately at conception, whereas pro's say that the child has moral worth at birth. This argument is made in the respect that pro's view abortion as OK only because the fetus does not yet have moral worth, so it is therefore not a "murder" or the ending of a life.

    If this is the case, then what would most pro's say if a pregnant woman was murdered, and the fetus died along with the mother? They'd probably say that it's the taking of TWO lives, just as anti's would. But could pro's logically make that distinction, that the fetus has moral worth in only certain circumstances? Of course, they could. But there is a blatant contradiction here.

    Thinking about it another way, if you had the power to make a law distinguishing between when a fetus was considered a viable human being with moral worth, you'd need to take both situations into account. If you wrote the law that a fetus was viable at conception, abortion would be illegal and there'd be TWO murder charges for murdering a pregnant woman. If the fetus was considered viable at birth, abortion would be legal and the murdering of a pregnant woman would amount to ONE murder charge.

    Interesting stuff.
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    Banned rolltideroll1's Avatar
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    I love the double standard

    Woman is happy she's pregnant: there's a baby in my tummy
    Woman is not happy she's pregnant: there's a collection of cells in my tummy
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  3. #3
    Viking of the Misc fightnak3d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rolltideroll1 View Post
    I love the double standard

    Woman is happy she's pregnant: there's a baby in my tummy
    Woman is not happy she's pregnant: there's a collection of cells in my tummy
    Right?
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  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by rolltideroll1 View Post
    I love the double standard

    Woman is happy she's pregnant: there's a baby in my tummy
    Woman is not happy she's pregnant: there's a collection of cells in my tummy
    It isn't much of a double standard.

    Pregnancy and childbirth involve a significant risk to the mother, even with modern medical technology. Nobody should force her to take the risk if she does not want to.

    Apart from that, the level of damage a woman can inflict through dangerous behavior during pregnancy is massive, even if abortion were illegal, and there is absolutely no way to regulate that.
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    its not complicated...a woman deserves the choice to bring a child into this fuked up world and risk her well being. Fundamental right of choice and freedom.
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  6. #6
    Viking of the Misc fightnak3d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    It isn't much of a double standard.

    Pregnancy and childbirth involve a significant risk to the mother, even with modern medical technology. Nobody should force her to take the risk if she does not want to.

    Apart from that, the level of damage a woman can inflict through dangerous behavior during pregnancy is massive, even if abortion were illegal, and there is absolutely no way to regulate that.
    You're certainly right, with all of this. In my original post, I wasn't necessarily taking a position on abortion but rather thinking about the whole idea of when a child has moral worth, and if that moral worth changes depending on who is acting on it. Abortion vs murder of a pregnant woman.
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    Viking of the Misc fightnak3d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Zerafian View Post
    its not complicated...a woman deserves the choice to bring a child into this fuked up world and risk her well being. Fundamental right of choice and freedom.
    You must not have read what I wrote. There are much more details than simply that.
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  8. #8
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    from a strictly utilitarian, non-religious standpoint it is hard to find a legitimate argument for making abortion illegal - the foetus is not a conscious being, therefore its personal happiness or utility cannot be accurately measured. What can be measured is the conscious being's utility or happiness - the mother. The mother can make a rational decision whether the development of this non-conscious being is going to be detrimental to her utility or can positively increase it.

    In OP's example of taking of two lives if killing a pregnant woman, you are taking one life and one potential life (as we would define life). Or you could argue you are taking two life FORMS - killing a fly is a form of killing a life form, yet it would be difficult to argue that you are committing murder by killing a fly
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    Viking of the Misc fightnak3d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XLiberty View Post
    from a strictly utilitarian, non-religious standpoint it is hard to find a legitimate argument for making abortion illegal - the foetus is not a conscious being.

    In OP's example of taking of two lives if killing a pregnant woman, you are taking one life and one potential life (as we would define life). Or you could argue you are taking two life FORMS - killing a fly is a form of killing a life form, yet it would be difficult to argue that you are committing murder by killing a fly
    Well then that is where the philosophy and logic comes into play... Is a fly morally equivalent to an unborn child? I understand your analogy but if it is considered wrong for person A to take the life of a woman's child, so then why would it be different for the woman to take the child's life?
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  10. #10
    Registered User XLiberty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by fightnak3d View Post
    Is a fly morally equivalent to an unborn child?

    -expanded my first post-

    at the exact moment in time - possibly - at the specific point of measurement the foetus is no more than a parasite, I believe it's only moral worth is what the mother wishes to attribute it, again I have to rely on utilitarianism.

    if the mother attributes the feelings of potential happiness to the further development of that unconscious life form, then its moral (or utility) worth is of great value. If the mother feels that the further development of the foetus will be detrimental and perhaps even restricting on her liberty, its moral worth is far less

    If the mother deems it to be the latter, is it immoral to abort it when at that current moment in time, the only liberty or utility currently being restricted is that of the mother?
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  11. #11
    He was a nice guy. Antipaty's Avatar
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    I'd leave the choice to the mother.

    Everybody has his own point of view, I sometimes feel that people just want to make their opinions the only choice avaible. You should always have the choice.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    It isn't much of a double standard.

    Pregnancy and childbirth involve a significant risk to the mother, even with modern medical technology. Nobody should force her to take the risk if she does not want to.

    Apart from that, the level of damage a woman can inflict through dangerous behavior during pregnancy is massive, even if abortion were illegal, and there is absolutely no way to regulate that.
    This. By all accounts, the fetus is not all that different from a parasite, at least in terms of the function it plays and its dependence on the mother. The fetus is dependent on the mother for its survival just as a man in a burning building that has been knocked unconscious might be dependent on you to save him if no one else is around.

    But, dependence alone doesn't mean you're morally obligated to help either the man in the burning building, or the fetus. It would be morally praise-worthy if you did but not morally required.
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    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) AD117's Avatar
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    I've always believed that it becomes murder when the child has formed some kind of brain function. The exact second were it can move or respond to stimulus part way through pregnancy is when you shouldn't abort and it's a real person. Tbh I'm no massive professional on the pros and cons of being pro or anti-abortion, but I always thought it was weird that most people support both the extremes and not any kind of center compromise.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    It isn't much of a double standard.

    Pregnancy and childbirth involve a significant risk to the mother, even with modern medical technology. Nobody should force her to take the risk if she does not want to.

    Apart from that, the level of damage a woman can inflict through dangerous behavior during pregnancy is massive, even if abortion were illegal, and there is absolutely no way to regulate that.
    I wouldn't categorize 650 deaths out of 4 million births in America as a significant risk. Its far more dangerous engaging in the act that gets one pregnant, then actually giving birth.
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    It has to do with whether or not the mother is planning on bringing the fetus into the world. That choice is what defines the worth of the fetus.

    Kinda like how a sperm that you're about to impregnate your significant other with has a different worth from a sperm that you just fired into a sock.
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    Originally Posted by AD117 View Post
    I've always believed that it becomes murder when the child has formed some kind of brain function. The exact second were it can move or respond to stimulus part way through pregnancy is when you shouldn't abort and it's a real person. Tbh I'm no massive professional on the pros and cons of being pro or anti-abortion, but I always thought it was weird that most people support both the extremes and not any kind of center compromise.
    My solution would be rather simple. Whats the earliest known premature baby to be born and actually survive? Theres your basis to make law from, because once you start "aborting" babies after that exact day, you are in fact killing a viable human life….now whether that fact matters to people or not is one thing… but at the end of the day we are still left with the undeniable fact, that abortion after X amount of days is killing a human viable life..which makes it much more difficult to defend. My solution pisses off both sides, but facts trump personal opinion.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    It isn't much of a double standard.

    Pregnancy and childbirth involve a significant risk to the mother, even with modern medical technology. Nobody should force her to take the risk if she does not want to.
    Aside from rape, getting pregnant involves a series of choices. If the fetus is a human being and killing it is in any way wrong, the argument of a mother's safety, especially in the US, is a failure.

    I don't know enough to form an opinion on when a baby is actually a person, I just know I don't favor the idea of people who don't prevent pregnancy and are willing to abort to be forced to raise a person.
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    None of the OP refutes the fact that individuals are allowed the choice of when to become a parent.
    Evidence.



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    Good post OP, but you have to consider two more things.

    First of all, if the woman wants the child but fetus is killed by someone else, it counts as murder or manslaughter. The law makes abortion legal, so the fetus would have no moral value. But if someone else kills the fetus without the mother´s consent, it is murder and the fetus does have a value. Concluding logically, the fetus moral value is decided by the mother. The fetus has a moral value by default but the mother can deny this moral value and kill the fetus.

    Second of all: you expect that the law goes after a philosophical or general logic. Well, it doesn´t. After all, we live in a democracy, logic doesn´t matter. What the people want does matter. Since the unborn children have no right or ability to decide what it wants, only the decision of the mother matters. And from a straight egocentric standpoint, it is better for the woman/mother if she has no children, so she wants to abort it.
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