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  1. #361
    Registered User Mech6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mrcheeze36 View Post
    Is that a Nebula design/feature? Rogue bought Nebula from RC three years ago so maybe that's one of the designs they're incorporating into their lines.
    No, I think Hans came up with that after he sold Nebula. So it's on his rae crowther racks only. Now, it may have been a Nebula design and haden't been in production yet, so that may explain it. There are no patents on any of this stuff however, so they're free to do whatever they want anyways.
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  2. #362
    Registered User smokinHawk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    Actually yes, being a mechanical engineer since 95 (actually BS in engineering physics, but I got out of that a while ago). But it has been a while, we have subcontractors doing that for cheaper than I would be.
    But I have high school dropouts working production here who can see how a clamping force will not be as strong as something in tension. Sure, go ahead and torque everything down properly. What if there's a spatter or powder coat "bubble" on one of the tubes or plates? Now it doesn't sit flat, and all 3 pieces held by 2 plates aren't flush. What if one side is the weld side of the tubing (flash), and it bows out a bit? Again, not flush. Take 3 tubes, clamp between 2 plates. You know very well one will be looser. Big no no. My point still stands.
    They are doing this 100% to cut manufacturing costs. There are no welded flanges. So it's laser cut tubing + plates + powder coat. No welding on those frame parts. Will it make the final product cheaper? Probably. But don't tell me it's as stable as having welded flanges and bolting it the other way, in the same plane as where almost all of the force will be applied (back and forth).
    you clamp a tube like that between two thick metal plates, torque them down, there wont be any play, even with some small imperfections. clamping force will be stronger then someone shaking the RH.
    Look at the prototype, I see welded flanges on it. lol.
    We all know this is probably to cut the cost of the unit and have it ship cheaper, but rogue isnt sornex and they have lowered their prices, while still keeping the quality high. with all that i have seen and used with rogue, everything is like a tank. Do you really think their prototype will be wobbly? I dont with looking at that picture, thing looks overkill to me. And with the bolt together design I could probably get it down in my basement a lot easier.
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  3. #363
    Registered User Mech6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokinHawk View Post
    you clamp a tube like that between two thick metal plates, torque them down, there wont be any play, even with some small imperfections.
    1 tube, yes. 3 tubes clamped with same 2 plates, no. Not good.

    Originally Posted by smokinHawk View Post
    We all know this is probably to cut the cost of the unit and have it ship cheaper, but rogue isnt sornex and they have lowered their prices, while still keeping the quality high. with all that i have seen and used with rogue, everything is like a tank. Do you really think their prototype will be wobbly? I dont with looking at that picture, thing looks overkill to me. And with the bolt together design I could probably get it down in my basement a lot easier.
    Anyhow, agree to disagree. There's a lot I don't like about some rogue designs, but then there's a lot I don't like about many other manufacturers too, and in the end none of them give a rat's ass what I think. And I agree that at least rogue keeps their stuff affordable. We'll just leave it at that.
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  4. #364
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    Heh. They can be bolted. Just not like that. Weren't we bitching out cheaper racks that used only triangular plates at connection points a few months ago? Now because rogue does it, all of a sudden it's fine? Doesnt' matter if plate is 1/2" thick, it's a bracket conenction, and it sucks. We don't build strucutres like this, we shouldn't build racks like that either. Yes, i'm 100% sure it's 100% strong enough. But it's wrong. There are correct ways. More expensive, but correct.

    The teardrops are interesting. Only other racks using that shape are RC racks.
    looks like a drop in tube that can be moved to any depth on the rack like their new monster lite racked out rigs.
    I dont see why a bracket connection sucks if their are plates on both sides and not like the sornex and reflex racks. For that kind of drop in tube I would prefer that connection over something welded, as it allows the plates to fully clamp to the tube versus. Structurally this style is more sound then clamping it vertically to the horizontal member.

    I grew up in a town that was close to Versailles Ohio, were Nebula was at, so we had a bunch of nebula equipment int he YMCA's and other gyms I worked out at. They made so many different styles of racks and equipment, they were constantly had different designs. they did have racks with the teardrop attachments. Their big monolift was really cool to, dont think they made to many of those, I know westside has one and pacifico's gym has one.
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  5. #365
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    1 tube, yes. 3 tubes clamped with same 2 plates, no. Not good.



    Anyhow, agree to disagree. There's a lot I don't like about some rogue designs, but then there's a lot I don't like about many other manufacturers too, and in the end none of them give a rat's ass what I think. And I agree that at least rogue keeps their stuff affordable. We'll just leave it at that.
    Then why are you in the rogue thread? There are a lot of stuff I don't like your designs as you copy some crapy designs, but I don't post on your thread, none of my business.
    All the stuff ive gotten from rogue has been great, any if i had any complaints it would be petty, plus there customer service has been amazing to, they always have made it right.
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  6. #366
    Always Learning dieselmike's Avatar
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    Is this really still going on? Constructive criticism and different opinions are good for discussion. Bitch slapping, insults and endlessly trying to prove who's right is not. If I get negged for posting this, so be it. But we come to the Rogue Thread to see products and opinions on Rogue stuff. We go to the Mech6 thread to see his Custom Stuff. We are allowed to visit and have opinions in both. No?

    It's like saying that if you own Yorks, you can't own Ivankos. Clearly not the case as many of us on here own both.

    Hopefully, the need to "get the last word in" has ended and this thread can get back to productive opinions and pictures of Rogue Equipment.
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  7. #367
    Registered User swimmer32's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dieselmike View Post
    It's like saying that if you own Yorks, you can't own Ivankos. Clearly not the case as many of us on here own both.
    Everybody knows you should have York split sleeve barbells and Ivanko revolvers.

    Anyways, I'm itching for Black Friday as I really want to upgrade my rack.
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  8. #368
    Registered User Mech6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokinHawk View Post
    There are a lot of stuff I don't like your designs as you copy some crapy designs, but I don't post on your thread
    I wish you would. I'm all for improving things.
    I made a remark on a rogue design that they posted on instagram, either to drum up attention or receive feedback. I said I didn't like it and why. Wether rogue comes out with it or not, I'm voicing my opinion about a rogue product, on the forums "rogue thread". What would be uncalled for is if I started pimping my own stuff on here, which I haven't. But I don't see how having a discussion on the strengths/weaknesses of a manufacturer should be avoided. Anyways, I'm done with this.
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  9. #369
    The Lifting Statistician Clydesdale1991's Avatar
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    I bought a Rogue Ohio Power Bar, does that get me in?
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  10. #370
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    Originally Posted by Bench905 View Post
    Good to know. I have next to zero knowledge of fabrication...all I'm thinking is ease of transport in a Honda Civic
    I squeezed my RML 690 in a Nissan Altima!! We could probably make a pretty good thread of absurd equipment transports.

    http://m.imgur.com/Uu2cI1u,xwqsEwG
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  11. #371
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    Originally Posted by swimmer32 View Post
    Everybody knows you should have York split sleeve barbells and Ivanko revolvers.
    I'm close. York B&R with Revolvers. But always looking to expand.
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  12. #372
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    Originally Posted by sgman View Post
    We could probably make a pretty good thread of absurd equipment transports.
    That thread would have some great potential. My best was squeezing a Legend Multi-Press into the back of a mini-van. Doesn't sound too bad, but half the unit had to hang out the back of the van on the almost 2 hour drive home.
    Last edited by swimmer32; 08-28-2015 at 03:58 PM.
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  13. #373
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    Added another Rogue to the stable, the Ohio Power Bar! Can't wait to use it tomorrow!




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  14. #374
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    Heh. They can be bolted. Just not like that. Weren't we bitching out cheaper racks that used only triangular plates at connection points a few months ago? Now because rogue does it, all of a sudden it's fine? Doesnt' matter if plate is 1/2" thick, it's a bracket conenction, and it sucks. We don't build strucutres like this, we shouldn't build racks like that either. Yes, i'm 100% sure it's 100% strong enough. But it's wrong. There are correct ways. More expensive, but correct.

    The teardrops are interesting. Only other racks using that shape are RC racks.
    Out of interest what is wrong with the bracket connection? is it the style of bracket or that a welded connection is superior to a bracket/gusset?

    I have looked for this a few times and had come to the conclusion that a triangle gusset could be on par with a welded connection?

    I ask out of curiosity, I have no argument for or against.
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    Originally Posted by supdenfoo View Post
    Great addition. One day I will nab one...one day. Did you see the prototype of the new RH? Spotted this on Bill's IG. Aside from the adjustable handles, it looks like the frame comes in more pieces you'd have to bolt together. Guessing its to save on shipping costs.
    In almost every case I like a new Rogue unit and see it as an improvement in function and often aesthetics (GHR, Adjustable benches, etc...). This prototype RH is the exception.

    I see why they are doing it as the RH-2 arrives assembled on its own pallet - I had to take the side legs off to get it inside and it made me wonder why they didn't just ship it like that. Admittedly an entire pallet with a RH bolted to it is bad ass and looks amazing with a single cardboard box over it sitting out front. That said, nothing I see here looks like an improvement at all unless one really likes tons of bolts. Cheaper shipping, less welding maybe, and that helps cost which is important, but I don't like the looks and don't see how the design improves function in any way.

    I'm open to ideas but I'll take mine any day.
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  16. #376
    Registered User Mech6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by elefoot View Post
    Out of interest what is wrong with the bracket connection? is it the style of bracket or that a welded connection is superior to a bracket/gusset?

    I have looked for this a few times and had come to the conclusion that a triangle gusset could be on par with a welded connection?

    I ask out of curiosity, I have no argument for or against.
    My last comments on this. But I'm defrosting freezer, so I have some time.
    There are litteraly thousands and thousands of pages written about how to join 2 pieces together, and of those, thousands just on bolted connections. But very quickly. Bolts are fine, often superiror. It just matters HOW they're used. If it's connected top and bottom, and it's supported by a proper frame, like that rack (I'm assuming only the middle post is like this, otherwise it sucks also), it's not terrible. My initial comment was when it's only on one end, and all the force is on the other end (as from the pendulum in the RH). Quickest example would be squat stands. In both examples it is understood that the bolts are properly sized and will not fail.
    Bracket connection:

    What's preventing that vertical tube from moveing out of perpendicularity with bottom tube? Purely the firction from the side plates. And the limit is when the bolts take up all the loose in the bolt holes. And there is always loose, quite a bit. By definition. There has to be.

    Flange connection:

    Before anyone asks, no, the bolts are not threaded into the thin tubing. There's a 3/8" plate and a 3/4" thick weldnut inside to hold the threads.
    Now, how would the vertical tube move in this case? Only way (other than breaking bolts, which will never happen) is by actually bending the members. Or the weld breaking, but that shouldn't happen either. There's a physical hard stop, at the right position. No loose. Zero. If the force was a moment around the vertical axis, then yes, this would not be good. But this isn't the case.

    So why do it the first way? No welding, cheaper, don't need to have everything 90deg (as you do to weld the flange). Basically no work after the laser cutting of the holes. So you eliminate a whole step of production (the welding). That's it. They've gone to a similar setup for their infinity 2.0 line. And if the price hasen't come down, you're getting the shaft. Because it used to have a welded socket, and it doens't anymore.

    In actual stuctures (machinery, frames...) the only way the first example is midlyy acceptable is if the actual position is pinned. And the bolts just hold everything together. The pins have no loose (pressed in), so the bolts aren't holding the vertical position, there' just squeezing it all together. But we're not going to start pinning squat stands.
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  17. #377
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    Mech,

    I agree with you that the flange is stronger. However, it is a whole lot less modular.

    A good example is Rogue's S-1 vs the new S-1 2.0.


    2.0




    Original S-1 with a welded flange.

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    Originally Posted by keyboardworkout View Post
    Mech,

    I agree with you that the flange is stronger. However, it is a whole lot less modular.

    A good example is Rogue's S-1 vs the new S-1 2.0.
    Yes, exactly. You wrote this while I was editing other post to talk about this. Is the customer getting lower prices from 1.0 to 2.0? If yes, great. But don't tell me it's as good.
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    Yes, exactly. You wrote this while I was editing other post to talk about this. Is the customer getting lower prices from 1.0 to 2.0? If yes, great. But don't tell me it's as good.
    I guess "good" is a relative term.

    You could argue that the S-2 2.0 is better because it is easily expandable into a full rack by buying:

    2 posts
    2 triangle brackets
    2 side cross members
    1 pullup bar
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    Originally Posted by keyboardworkout View Post
    I guess "good" is a relative term.

    You could argue that the S-2 2.0 is better because it is easily expandable into a full rack by buying:

    2 posts
    2 triangle brackets
    2 side cross members
    1 pullup bar
    Sure. I was talking about the connection, which is where this whole thing started. And is it cheaper than before?
    And having flanges on the bottom doesn't preculde anything. Look at RC. Same verticals used wether rack is half-rack, full rack, with a bse or sumo... All the same verticals.
    I agress the old socket style would not allow this.
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    Flange connection:

    Before anyone asks, no, the bolts are not threaded into the thin tubing. There's a 3/8" plate and a 3/4" thick weldnut inside to hold the threads.
    Now, how would the vertical tube move in this case? Only way (other than breaking bolts, which will never happen) is by actually bending the members. Or the weld breaking, but that shouldn't happen either. There's a physical hard stop, at the right position. No loose. Zero. If the force was a moment around the vertical axis, then yes, this would not be good. But this isn't the case.
    last question as I realise the thread is going off topic, do you cut holes in the black beam in oder for the weld nut to sink as its thicker than the plate its being welded to?
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    Originally Posted by elefoot View Post
    last question as I realise the thread is going off topic, do you cut holes in the black beam in oder for the weld nut to sink as its thicker than the plate its being welded to?
    Yes
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    Just wanted to say I have been lurking on the boards for quite some time and decided to sign up and post today. I have been lifting since mid February 2014, with a 2 month pause to travel Europe from mid May to mid July this year. I have spent the last 6 weeks budgeting and researching for upgrading my home gym. Even though my choices might be overkill, I'm not going to try and buy cheap not knowing what I was doing like I did a year and a half ago buying a Marcy pos because I couldn't afford the bowflex I wanted so I could lift safe at home. (I have learned a lot on these boards since then)

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    Originally Posted by keyboardworkout View Post
    A good example is Rogue's S-1 vs the new S-1 2.0.

    Original S-1 with a welded flange.
    Interesting, I didn't realize they'd eliminated the welded "socket" on the Infinity line. When I bought my SML-2 last year, the socket was one of the things I liked about the Infinity series that the monster-lite racks didn't have. I was concerned with the stability of the bracket design, and was pleased to see that it was a lot sturdier than expected once I bolted everything together.

    I'm guessing some people asked for this change--they saw the ability of the ML squat stands to turn into a full rack, and asked why that wasn't a feature of the Infinity series. I'd be interested in seeing how many people actually convert their half-racks into full ones. It's still disappointing that the socket is gone. I remember Rogue even highlighted it in one of their videos to point out how good it was.
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    My last comments on this. But I'm defrosting freezer, so I have some time.
    There are litteraly thousands and thousands of pages written about how to join 2 pieces together, and of those, thousands just on bolted connections. But very quickly. Bolts are fine, often superiror. It just matters HOW they're used. If it's connected top and bottom, and it's supported by a proper frame, like that rack (I'm assuming only the middle post is like this, otherwise it sucks also), it's not terrible. My initial comment was when it's only on one end, and all the force is on the other end (as from the pendulum in the RH). Quickest example would be squat stands. In both examples it is understood that the bolts are properly sized and will not fail.
    Bracket connection:

    What's preventing that vertical tube from moveing out of perpendicularity with bottom tube? Purely the firction from the side plates. And the limit is when the bolts take up all the loose in the bolt holes. And there is always loose, quite a bit. By definition. There has to be.

    Flange connection:

    Before anyone asks, no, the bolts are not threaded into the thin tubing. There's a 3/8" plate and a 3/4" thick weldnut inside to hold the threads.
    Now, how would the vertical tube move in this case? Only way (other than breaking bolts, which will never happen) is by actually bending the members. Or the weld breaking, but that shouldn't happen either. There's a physical hard stop, at the right position. No loose. Zero. If the force was a moment around the vertical axis, then yes, this would not be good. But this isn't the case.

    So why do it the first way? No welding, cheaper, don't need to have everything 90deg (as you do to weld the flange). Basically no work after the laser cutting of the holes. So you eliminate a whole step of production (the welding). That's it. They've gone to a similar setup for their infinity 2.0 line. And if the price hasen't come down, you're getting the shaft. Because it used to have a welded socket, and it doens't anymore.

    In actual stuctures (machinery, frames...) the only way the first example is midlyy acceptable is if the actual position is pinned. And the bolts just hold everything together. The pins have no loose (pressed in), so the bolts aren't holding the vertical position, there' just squeezing it all together. But we're not going to start pinning squat stands.
    you have it all wrong! Since both of those use bolted connections your are still limited to the friction of the clamping force if you say that the bolts being loose will cause movement.
    the first picture is way stronger then the second. If you look at the cross-sectional area the first has a much greater Inertia strength. It is clearly obvious, if you apply a moment force on the top of the first one, it will be much harder to bend the upright then the second one one since the material thickness on the second pic is laying flat instead of upright. I have ran FEA analysis and physical tests on both of those structures and the one on the top is way stronger then the bottom.

    I can also see why rogue replaced this with their socket connection as the socket fold having a tolerance, plus being welded to the base member would not compress to the tube fully or be to tight. since there are plates that can be compressed to the sides of the tube without limiting welds or bends, it will be much stiffer and more consistent for production.
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    Originally Posted by smokinHawk View Post
    you have it all wrong! Since both of those use bolted connections your are still limited to the friction of the clamping force if you say that the bolts being loose will cause movement.
    the first picture is way stronger then the second. If you look at the cross-sectional area the first has a much greater Inertia strength. It is clearly obvious, if you apply a moment force on the top of the first one, it will be much harder to bend the upright then the second one one since the material thickness on the second pic is laying flat instead of upright. I have ran FEA analysis and physical tests on both of those structures and the one on the top is way stronger then the bottom.

    I can also see why rogue replaced this with their socket connection as the socket fold having a tolerance, plus being welded to the base member would not compress to the tube fully or be to tight. since there are plates that can be compressed to the sides of the tube without limiting welds or bends, it will be much stiffer and more consistent for production.
    seriously? not to be a ass, but I'd review actual literature on bolted connections before writing that. And fea is not the only thing to consider here. Obviusly this is a dead end, so eithwer start another thread or lets drop it, not to hijack this one.
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    Originally Posted by keyboardworkout View Post
    I guess "good" is a relative term.

    You could argue that the S-2 2.0 is better because it is easily expandable into a full rack by buying:

    2 posts
    2 triangle brackets
    2 side cross members
    1 pullup bar
    This is a valid observation. But in truth, that modularity is just a byproduct of streamlining productivity on their end. AKA cutting costs. If you're clever, you can pass off cost savings on your end as an exciting new feature to the consumer without reducing the price, and in some cases, raising it. Rogue is very clever.

    Not saying it's for the better or worse, but it is what it is.
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    sAnd fea is not the only thing to consider here.
    yes I know FEA is just an estimation of how material reacts, which is also why I would conduct actual physical dynamic and static tests.
    not one of my company products (tests are confidential)
    but this is like some of the tests I do
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    Can we drop the engineering arguments and get back to the Rogue discussion? Been going on for a while now...
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    Has anyone purchased the rogue landmine handles? - http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-landmine-handles

    I wanted to get something like this for T-bar rows at home, curious how these are and if they are worth the cost.
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