ITT we examine Soy lecithin and its overall profile

[OregonBBinc]

This is the profile in life extension Soy lecithin granules:

Per 10 g of Lecithin granules, there is 0.7 g of Phosphatidic Acid, 2.3g of phosphatidylcholine, 2.0g of phosphatidylethanolamine, 1.4g of phosphyatidylinositol, 1g of acylphosphatidylethanolamine, diphosphatidylglycerol, lysophosphatidylethanolamine, lysophosphatidylcholine and other unidentified phospholipids, 1.5g of glycolipids, 0.2g of neutral lipids, 0.8g of sugar

Is this really beneficial pre workout? Per examine 2g SL may cause reduced cortisol. Obviously people are dosing it much higher so it would one would think it MAY be even be a bigger impact at this point. GENERALLY you dont want antioxidants or cortisol reducing agents ect ect around your workout. Although iirc, certain pathways of cortisol reduction are ok.

My question is, has anyone actually analyzed the overall profile of SL, and the potential negative interactions other things in it may cause around your workouts? This is not to bash soy lecithin, but based on certain theories, eg saturation theory over acute benefits, is there merit to dosing it away from workouts, sacrificing some of the benefits and avoiding the negative interactions (if there is any)?

[Rob1882]

In

Relevant to my interests

Currently using 15g fearn sl for 1.2g PA soaked in water or mixed with protein about 1 hour pre workout.

[OregonBBinc]

note: i do not know how much Phosphatidylserine is in SL, examine claims around 3% of total phospholipids. Yet fearn nor life extention discloses PS at all in their products. unless im going full potato right now (very possible).

but per examine: A decrease in exercise-induced cortisol has been noted with the bovine cortex sourced PS only, soy based supplements sold now have been shown to have outright no effect at doses up to 750mg. so it appears regarding soy PS may not have a concern over cortisol. although the doses were using (much higher), possibly could alter that assumption (or not).

[OregonBBinc]

In

Relevant to my interests

Currently using 15g fearn sl for 1.2g PA soaked in water or mixed with protein about 1 hour pre workout.

cool, how are you liking it? obviously it appears their merit to its daily use. im just wondering if its potentially counter productive to dose pre workout, or maybe find out more why these things are good pre workout. unfortunately some negative side effects are hard to tell by anecdote. eg 1000 of vit C isnt good, but how would you notice that? we need science.

[eatyourspinach]

The effects of phosphatidylserine on endocrine response to moderate intensity exercise http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/11 It doesn't seem that the effects of PS from SL would do anything negative regarding exercise but might potentially help.

[OregonBBinc]

The effects of phosphatidylserine on endocrine response to moderate intensity exercise http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/11 It doesn't seem that the effects of PS from SL would do anything negative regarding exercise but might potentially help.

couple of the conclusions in there:

"The findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress and preventing the physiological deterioration that can accompany too much exercise. PS supplementation promotes a desired hormonal status for athletes by blunting increases in cortisol levels."

"These findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress. PS supplementation promotes a desirable hormonal balance for athletes and might attenuate the physiological deterioration that accompanies overtraining and/or overstretching."

My question is, are the proported benefits for athletes different from someone like your typical gym rat trying to make gains?
considering an athlete, takes a lot of damage from repetitive movements, their goal is to focus on maintaining performance levels vs gaining, obviously everyone would want to gain, but in certain circumstances different things are prioritized.

im not following how reducing exercise induced stress is beneficial, especially considering most of us arnt over training in the first place. you dont want cortisol to be blunted in the workout window, am i not right?

[OregonBBinc]

Im going to pick some SL up regardless, might dose it with some ingredients to see if the Phosphatidylcholine can noticeably improve absorption. will be attempting this with curcumin, which if it decreases inflammation at all (doubtful) it should be easy to notice. wonder if something like this could be of benefit to -epi users, laxo and other things as well. although idk if it works the same as Phytosome, which is just ingredients complexed with Phosphatidylcholine, but i cant see why not.

disclaimer: im not a scientist, i just play one on the internet.

[eatyourspinach]

couple of the conclusions in there:

"The findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress and preventing the physiological deterioration that can accompany too much exercise. PS supplementation promotes a desired hormonal status for athletes by blunting increases in cortisol levels."

"These findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress. PS supplementation promotes a desirable hormonal balance for athletes and might attenuate the physiological deterioration that accompanies overtraining and/or overstretching."

My question is, are the proported benefits for athletes different from someone like your typical gym rat trying to make gains?
considering an athlete, takes a lot of damage from repetitive movements, their goal is to focus on maintaining performance levels vs gaining, obviously everyone would want to gain, but in certain circumstances different things are prioritized.

im not following how reducing exercise induced stress is beneficial, especially considering most of us arnt over training in the first place. you dont want cortisol to be blunted in the workout window, am i not right?

Maybe by saying it creates a "desirable hormonal balance" it doesn't mean completely crushing cortisol levels but lowering them to a point which it is beneficial.

[OregonBBinc]

Maybe by saying it creates a "desirable hormonal balance" it doesn't mean completely crushing cortisol levels but lowering them to a point which it is beneficial.

i guess thats the kicker than isnt it. does it simply balance out your natural hormone levels creating an equilibrium in some way, or does it by reducing X amount and the dose is key?. im guessing its somewhat dose dependent regardless.

it specifically mentions over training, so lets throw out some arbitrary numbers. lets say cortisol gets spiked + 15% from normal training and +35% from over training. and lets say 600mg PS blunts cortisol by 25%, clearly that would not be beneficial for normal training.

and thats not counting the fact of dosing protocols, thats another variable. idk how much PS is in 14g of SL.

[OregonBBinc]

pulled this from a LEF article, but at least its referencing outside studies.

"In a second study, the Italian scientists tried the same experiment using 400 mg and 800 mg of phosphatidylserine taken orally.11 They found that the plasma cortisol responses were 16% and 25% lower, respectively. These reduced percentages suggest that part of the orally administered phosphatidylserine was degraded before it reached the bloodstream."

it does seem dose dependent. i think its about 2.3% so that would be like 320mg in a 14 gram serving?

so i guess the next question in evaluating the PS content is how much cortisol reduction is too much, it appears that amount would likely elicit around a 12% decrease or so. This is under the amount in that study, yet, i cant seem to like the fact that it was in reference to over training, still strikes me as saying, good for keeping your body going yet not for growing.

[OregonBBinc]

per mr.cooper:

"What if I told you that exercise-induced cortisol is correlated with increased LBM and may actually be a beneficial adaptation for hypertrophy? Would you still be so staunchly behind the effects of PS (which I love by the way, but definitely not for the reasons you mentioned)?"

disclaimer: this is back in 2012, in response to someone using it peri workout. his views may/may not have changed, but im assuming not.




it seems as though, people dosing SL at 14-20+ g(assuming i got the dose right per 14 grams) may not be benefiting from this.

so either

A- youll want to dose this away from workout. perhaps find another way to take advantage of uptake. Do some quick HIIT for cardio in the am for mTOR activation? or maybe even take it with something like leucine? or perhaps it will all get saturated anyways, and itll just take longer.

B-take a smaller dose peri workout, even cutting the typical dose of SL in half would still be close to the studied dose of PA, then youd have to figure out how much cortisol lowering is too much. it appears any cort reducing isnt beneficial, but perhaps their is a point where its negligible.


edit: all this is under the assumption that all information from articles or coop is referencing soy lecithin and not bovine sourced. examine seems to state only bovine impacts cort levels but the study EYS posted conflicts with that so im still inclined to think soy derived PS has a negative impact on workouts.

[NewAgeMayan]

Hey where does LEF specify the PA content of their lecithin granules? Im sure I didnt see it listed on their tubs...

[NewAgeMayan]

I dont know much about this cortisol issue, but is the effect/reduction acute and only temporary? That is, a few hours post workout, are levels typically back to base? If so, what is the big deal over a temporary reduction? Secondly, maybe we take (say) 2 steps back by dosing prewo (and reducing cortisol), but we also take 5 steps forward (due to the stress effect exercise has on prewo dosed PA), 5 steps we couldnt make if we dosed hours later...so if we weigh up all dosing strategies/options/timings, dosing PA prewo is most optimal even though there may be 'slight' negatives to doing so...?

[OregonBBinc]

Hey where does LEF specify the PA content of their lecithin granules? Im sure I didnt see it listed on their tubs...

its not listed. assuming each product is using the same %, its likely all going to be similar. but i emailed them and that is the answer i got in the op.

[OregonBBinc]

I dont know much about this cortisol issue, but is the effect/reduction acute and only temporary? That is, a few hours post workout, are levels typically back to base? If so, what is the big deal over a temporary reduction? Secondly, maybe we take (say) 2 steps back by dosing prewo (and reducing cortisol), but we also take 5 steps forward (due to the stress effect exercise has on prewo dosed PA), 5 steps we couldnt make if we dosed hours later...so if we weigh up all dosing strategies/options/timings, dosing PA prewo is most optimal even though there may be 'slight' negatives to doing so...?

the big deal is the exercise induced cortisol spike is beneficial. and if youre taking something thats blunting cortisol, which is part of the growing process, its counter productive. PS' effects are acute, so taking it regularly every day away from the workout would not be an issue im aware of, but as far as the extrapolation that because its temporary that it doesnt matter peri workout, i dont see the logic.

i think its been theorized plenty that PA works on saturation regardless, taking it peri workout knowing this seems redundant.

[NewAgeMayan]

the big deal is the exercise induced cortisol spike is beneficial.

Sure, but if dosing PA prewo is *more* beneficial, so what?

and if youre taking something thats blunting cortisol, which is part of the growing process, its counter productive.

Im assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that a temporary blunting of cortisol wont completely inhibit/prevent hypertrophy ("the growing process").

This is why I wondered if, maybe, blunting cortisol periwo was akin to taking 2 steps back, but who cares if we are then taking 5 steps forward?

I really dont know, just considering possibilities (that the cortisol issue raised here is perhaps insignificant relatively speaking).

i think its been theorized plenty that PA works on saturation regardless, taking it peri workout knowing this seems redundant.

Wilson and Stout theorise contrary to the saturation theory. Danes and 'dookie know the science on this, i cant recall it myself.

[Danes]

Nice thread.
I will answer when I am home.

[OregonBBinc]

Sure, but if dosing PA prewo is *more* beneficial, so what?



Im assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that a temporary blunting of cortisol wont completely inhibit/prevent hypertrophy ("the growing process").

This is why I wondered if, maybe, blunting cortisol periwo was akin to taking 2 steps back, but who cares if we are then taking 5 steps forward?

I really dont know, just considering possibilities (that the cortisol issue raised here is perhaps insignificant relatively speaking).



Wilson and Stout theorise contrary to the saturation theory. Danes and 'dookie know the science on this, i cant recall it myself.

well if the pros, outweigh the cons, and the overall balance is shifted positive of course we should take it. BUT if the benefit is minimal, and it still would help some away from peri workout windows, i would think logically that it would make sense to change the dosing time. especially considering PS and things would also be beneficial in a work setting.

im also simply considering possibilities, ive only done a very rough amount of research, i mostly just wanted to get a conversation started to get ideas like yours and others bouncing off eachother. Although unless somehow ive miss understood the PS studies about cortisol, it appears quite significant imo. blunting cortisol isnt anabolic. i guess at that point the answers we need are, how small of a dose of SL can we take to make the cort blunting minimal enough to not worry about yet still get enough PA, or is such a thing possible in the peri workout window, or even relevant.

i believe danes has said it works in both aspects, SL does work acutely, but there is a buildup effect.

[BlueRev]

in.

[OregonBBinc]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15512856

PA/PS (PAS): "Treatment with 400 mg PAS resulted in a pronounced blunting of both serum ACTH and cortisol, and salivary cortisol responses to the TSST, but did not affect heart rate. The effect was not seen with larger doses of PAS. With regard to the psychological response,"

on a psychological level, it does seem dose dependent and reduces cort. but perhaps this is irrelevant since we want to know about workout induced cort levels.

examine is the only place ive seen stating that soy lecithin derived PS doesnt blunt cortisol in some way shape or form. although it says SL possibly can.

[OregonBBinc]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1997116/
"Short term oral supplementation with soy-derived PS (S-PS) has been reported to attenuate circulating cortisol concentrations, improve perceived well-being, and reduce perceived muscle soreness after exercise."

so perhaps another question is, is there a window where we can take it far enough away pre workout that PS acute effects are worn off, yet still get the benefits of PA/PC ect for our workouts? ive read PS has a short half life and read it having a 24 hour half life, im more inclined to believe its shorter at least as far as the effects on cort and the fact that it proves acute benefits. PC conversely appears to have a longer half life. some legitimate numbers would be nice if anyone knows.

[kissdadookie]

the big deal is the exercise induced cortisol spike is beneficial. and if youre taking something thats blunting cortisol, which is part of the growing process, its counter productive. PS' effects are acute, so taking it regularly every day away from the workout would not be an issue im aware of, but as far as the extrapolation that because its temporary that it doesnt matter peri workout, i dont see the logic.

i think its been theorized plenty that PA works on saturation regardless, taking it peri workout knowing this seems redundant.

How would this really matter if PA studies have seen that PA and PS induces a similar amount of mTOR stimulation. So it's evident that how the PS works depends on the context it's being utilized in so the time frame it's being taken in may change the effects of supplementing with it.

You're fixated on looking at just one aspect instead of broadening your view on what PS does or doesn't do.

On top of that, it doesn't even appear that you looked that much into PS and cortisol. Iirc, stress increases cortisol levels... as well as lower PS levels. On top of that, PS also gets into the brain and increases acetylcholine levels.

On top of the above, look at the amount of cortisol it decreased. Is a 16%-25% decrease of an already elevated level of cortisol (based on 400 mg and 800 mg oral dose) actually going to be detrimental or may that actually lower it just enough to actually improve recovery and give one a more positive protein balance?

They had that NSAID study previously, the only long term one done for exercise and muscle growth/adaptation. Chronic use actually saw better gains with the NSAID group, they suspect that it's because overall, it provides a more positive protein balance. Granted that was done on old people, but there's really no long term chronic use study done on a younger population for comparison.

[JohnBraithwaite]

you have to see the forest through the trees

[OregonBBinc]

How would this really matter if PA studies have seen that PA and PS induces a similar amount of mTOR stimulation. So it's evident that how the PS works depends on the context it's being utilized in so the time frame it's being taken in may change the effects of supplementing with it.

IDK, you tell me, this is not me fear mongering, im simply opening up a discussion no one seems to care about. although its not as simple as looking at it from the mTOR stimulation, I could just pop a leucine and get that if you wanted to simply focus on that aspect. I mean sure you may not get all the benefits if not taking it during exercise, but can it not be beneficial during other time frames? any idea of the half life of PA vs PS? none of this seems very well documented.

[OregonBBinc]

you have to see the forest through the trees

feel free to aware us of your insight

[kissdadookie]

IDK, you tell me, this is not me fear mongering, im simply opening up a discussion no one seems to care about. although its not as simple as looking at it from the mTOR stimulation, I could just pop a leucine and get that if you wanted to simply focus on that aspect. I mean sure you may not get all the benefits if not taking it during exercise, but can it not be beneficial during other time frames? any idea of the half life of PA vs PS? none of this seems very well documented.

The activation on mTOR with the PA and PS is likely independent from the stimulation you get from leucine (the PS may possibly be converted to LPA, the LPA then affects mTOR, that's a possible route for the PA as well). So in effect, if you use the both together, that should net your an amount of stimulation greater than either on their own.

Halflife of PA at least, is about 6-7 hours.

[OregonBBinc]

The activation on mTOR with the PA and PS is likely independent from the stimulation you get from leucine (the PS may possibly be converted to LPA, the LPA then affects mTOR, that's a possible route for the PA as well). So in effect, if you use the both together, that should net your an amount of stimulation greater than either on their own.

Halflife of PA at least, is about 6-7 hours.

im not againt mTOR activation, but my point is SL is not the only way to do so, BUT im also not saying its redundant, and shouldnt be capitalized on either. IF we could figure out the half life of PS, it would really be helpful. lets say an arbitrary number like 2-4 hrs when cort blunting is in effect. we could dose it at say 2, eat at 4, train at 6. youd theoretically have the best of both worlds. PS effects blunting stress at work, but still getting the benefits of cort as well as PA during the workout.

could it not possibly work? im just wondering if it has to be one way or another, or if we can optimize the uptake more beneficially by changing typical dosing times.

[kissdadookie]

im not againt mTOR activation, but my point is SL is not the only way to do so, BUT im also not saying its redundant, and shouldnt be capitalized on either. IF we could figure out the half life of PS, it would really be helpful. lets say an arbitrary number like 2-4 hrs when cort blunting is in effect. we could dose it at say 2, eat at 4, train at 6. youd theoretically have the best of both worlds. PS effects blunting stress at work, but still getting the benefits of cort as well as PA during the workout.

could it not possibly work? im just wondering if it has to be one way or another, or if we can optimize the uptake more beneficially by changing typical dosing times.

I'm saying the amount of cortisol reduction from orally ingested PS is not that great if you think about it (400 mg shows a 16% decrease, 800 mg sows a 25% decrease). I think you end up with far less PS in 2-3 tablespoons of SL? It's a non-issue. Unless you're intravenously using the PS, it's not going to do much for cortisol levels (in terms of becoming detrimental to adaptation to exercise, remember, the 16 and 25 percent decrease could actually be beneficial, we're not completely blunting the cortisol response, if anything, we might be tipping the scales to favour anabolism due to a more positive protein balance) based on oral dose-dependent response of PS and cortisol levels.

[OregonBBinc]

You're fixated on looking at just one aspect instead of broadening your view on what PS does or doesn't do.

On top of that, it doesn't even appear that you looked that much into PS and cortisol. Iirc, stress increases cortisol levels... as well as lower PS levels. On top of that, PS also gets into the brain and increases acetylcholine levels.

On top of the above, look at the amount of cortisol it decreased. Is a 16%-25% decrease of an already elevated level of cortisol (based on 400 mg and 800 mg oral dose) actually going to be detrimental or may that actually lower it just enough to actually improve recovery and give one a more positive protein balance?

They had that NSAID study previously, the only long term one done for exercise and muscle growth/adaptation. Chronic use actually saw better gains with the NSAID group, they suspect that it's because overall, it provides a more positive protein balance. Granted that was done on old people, but there's really no long term chronic use study done on a younger population for comparison.

idk what me not looking into something has to do with it, theres studies posted all over this thread im trying to learn more. yes stress increases cortisol, but PS effects workout induced cortisol under the assumption i read that right so not sure your point. workout induced cort is a good thing and theres studies backing that.

you do have a point, and one ive already mentioned actually if youve read the thread instead of commenting on what i havent considered. Is the key in the dose? perhaps theres a certain amount of PS we simply dont want to go over that would lend the worry for cort blunting redundant, hence maybe SL is fine pre workout, but not mega dosing just for PA, or perhaps even cutting down the dose may be smart.

[kissdadookie]

idk what me not looking into something has to do with it, theres studies posted all over this thread im trying to learn more. yes stress increases cortisol, but PS effects workout induced cortisol under the assumption i read that right so not sure your point. workout induced cort is a good thing and theres studies backing that.

you do have a point, and one ive already mentioned actually if youve read the thread instead of commenting on what i havent considered. Is the key in the dose? perhaps theres a certain amount of PS we simply dont want to go over that would lend the worry for cort blunting redundant, hence maybe SL is fine pre workout, but not mega dosing just for PA, or perhaps even cutting down the dose may be smart.

PS affects cortisol levels, period. The reason they studied it under exercising conditions is because exercise is a surefire way to increase cortisol levels significantly. But like you've observed, there's a dose dependent response. You need a pretty big dose of it at that as well to even hit the 25% reduction in cortisol (800 mg). I'm not sure that you get that much from 2-3 tablespoons of SL.

On top of that, there's also other factors to consider:

1) What is the threshold of cortisol reduction in which it becomes counter productive?
2) Is there a difference between acute and long term chronic use effects (acutely it might not be good, long term it might actually be a net positive)?
3) Is the PS simultaneously both increasing mTOR as well as blunting a little bit of cortisol at the same time, does this ultimately equate to a pro?