The New Christian Thread 4

[BrosefMengele]

We're all saved by Grace through faith in the Blood of Christ.

not through works, not by charity, not by any other means.

Saved by grace does not mean permission to sin, though.

Is a pardon from the governor a license to break the law? A pardon from God for past sins is not a license to sin, (to break God's Law.)

No, not all of Christ's disciples will be saved. There are true and false disciples.

Don't believe me? What about Jesus?

Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The Bible teaches that sinners (those who transgress the Law) will be destroyed.

[Aircommander91]

Saved by grace does not mean permission to sin, though.

Is a pardon from the governor a license to break the law? A pardon from God for past sins is not a license to sin, (to break God's Law.)

No, not all of Christ's disciples will be saved. There are true and false disciples.

Don't believe me? What about Jesus?

Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The Bible teaches that sinners (those who transgress the Law) will be destroyed.

Not saying that we should sin. or that we're allowed.

but following your logic, none of us will be saved.

as hard as you try, you will fall short of the Lord's standard.

as I've mentioned before, if you even sin in your mind, it is as if you've commited the act. if you see a beautiful woman and lust for her in your mind, you're a sinner.

hence, how come any of us could be saved?

you will sin, you will stumble, you will commit errors in the eyes of God.

but if you repent, recognize your errors and believe in the Lord in your heart, he will forgive you.

for only He knows mens hearts. Only He knows those who trully repent and see the wrongs in their ways.

It's not a matter of claiming you regret your sins, but truly regreting and seeing your wrong doings in your heart.

only then you can be saved.

[Aircommander91]

The Triumph of Faith
(John 14:27-31)
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we havea peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

Christ's Sacrifice for the Ungodly
(Genesis 22:1-10; John 3:16-21)
6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
(Genesis 3:1-7; Genesis 7:1-5; 2 Peter 3:1-9)
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[BrosefMengele]

Yes that's what I'm saying, none of us will be saved.

Sarcasm aside, the Bible says "very few" will be saved.

[BrosefMengele]

Only Noah's family was saved from the flood, and if Noah was not allowed to save his family, if it was every person for themselves, only Noah would have been saved.

Only Rahab, only Lot, were found worthy in the eyes of the Lord. When everyone else was destroyed.

It will be the same for the world before the Coming of the Lord, very few will be saved. Even amongst professed Christians.

In the days of Noah, so shall it be in the day of the Coming of the Son of Man.

[Aircommander91]

Yes that's what I'm saying, none of us will be saved.

Sarcasm aside, the Bible says "very few" will be saved.

I agree with you that we all should live righteous lives before the Lord.

but to assume we won't ever make mistakes again is being unrealistic. (not using this as a cop out to sin freely and pretend to repent, in that case, as you've stated, you're really condemned to hell)

but we're bound to sin, to error.

Eccl. 7:20: “For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.”

Rom 10:10: “For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” One must believe not only in their mind but their spirit their innermost being to be saved.


Being spiritually reborn the sin nature is not removed (until we are glorified) but we are given a new nature, a renewed mind that rule over it.

Rom 7:21-25 “I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”


Not saying that we should sin, or defending sin my brother.

But recognizing that we're bound to it. And we can only be saved by the Grace of our Lord. We're fallen. We're born out of sin. We're doomed to sin, and only through Him we're saved.

Rom 6:17 “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.”

Eph 6:6 “not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart”

We now are willing to do what is right what s God’s will instead of being inclined to only do sin. This is why those who become Christian have a drastic change of life.

[BrosefMengele]

"but to assume we won't ever make mistakes again is being unrealistic."

I didn't say that.

I have been saying "If you love God, keep His commandments."

That is quite different.

[BrosefMengele]

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— Jude 24

2 Peter 1:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Ephesians 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

[cheerupemokid]

My point is that we aren't free to sin. He fulfilled it by never transgressing it (never sinning).

That's why He said "it is finished" before He died, because the devil couldn't make Him sin; Jesus won, He made it possible for us to be saved. By dying, Jesus did not destroy His Law. He fulfilled it.

What Christians are arguing that it's permissible to sin?

It's just the knowledge that we are more than likely going to fail at some point in our life. If we weren't, Jesus would not have needed to die for our sins. The wages of sin is death, so failing once is condemnation without Jesus.

[BrosefMengele]

What Christians are arguing that it's permissible to sin?

It's just the knowledge that we are more than likely going to fail at some point in our life. If we weren't, Jesus would not have needed to die for our sins. The wages of sin is death, so failing once is condemnation without Jesus.

The poster above, also calm wind who is one of the more prominent Christians! People who are supposed to be ministers of Christ!

[lasher]

It's like warrnation and whatisbro had a baby.

[Aircommander91]

The poster above, also calm wind who is one of the more prominent Christians! People who are supposed to be ministers of Christ!

not once I said sinning is permited.

I just recognize our fallen nature and that eventually we're going to stumble and make a mistake again in the eyes of the Lord.

Not justifying it. But recognizing a reality.

If it were the way you're saying, you could only be saved once. Once you've repented in the eyes of the Lord, that would be it. If you did one single mistake again, even by the smallest it be (only in thought), you were going to be condemned to eternal damnation. even by believing Christ and repenting in His Blood.

But God knows human nature and did not make it so. He knows that we're bound to commit error. And by His Grace He saves us through His sacrifice.

The only thing He asks is to have faith in the Blood, repent from our sins with all our heart and seek not to sin nomore. ( if u think in your heart sinning isn't wrong or doesn't do harm, you really doesn't regret it and doesn't repent from it, you're actually making a mockery of the sacrifice of the Lord)

so again, no one is defending sinning. but recognizing our Fallen nature. If we could be perfect, without sin, we wouldn't need Jesus sacrifice to save us.

He was the only man to live without sin. The only that has and the only that ever will.

[BrosefMengele]

It's not enough to merely have an intellectual belief in Christ, nor even to have heard His name, in order to be saved. What matters is if you have been converted by the Holy spirit and the Law has been written on your heart.

Many people have an intellectual belief in Christ but have not been truly converted, these are the people who will say "Lord, Lord" but Jesus will say "I never knew you".

Saving grace is acquired when the Law has been written on your heart.

[BrosefMengele]

not once I said sinning is permited.

I just recognize our fallen nature and that eventually we're going to stumble and make a mistake again in the eyes of the Lord.

Not justifying it. But recognizing a reality.

If it were the way you're saying, you could only be saved once. Once you've repented in the eyes of the Lord, that would be it. If you did one single mistake again, even by the smallest it be (only in thought), you were going to be condemned to eternal damnation. even by believing Christ and repenting in His Blood.

But God knows human nature and did not make it so. He knows that we're bound to commit error. And by His Grace He saves us through His sacrifice.

The only thing He asks is to have faith in the Blood, repent from our sins with all our heart and seek not to sin nomore. ( if u think in your heart sinning isn't wrong or doesn't do harm, you really doesn't regret it and doesn't repent from it, you're actually making a mockery of the sacrifice of the Lord)

so again, no one is defending sinning. but recognizing our Fallen nature. If we could be perfect, without sin, we wouldn't need Jesus sacrifice to save us.

He was the only man to live without sin. The only that has and the only that ever will.

How are those who haven't heard of Jesus or the Law saved?

[BrosefMengele]

It's like warrnation and whatisbro had a baby.

It's like the person who created the christian thread when he isn't busy harassing true servants of God is at work, furiously defending the Pontiff of Rome, the Antichrist, in my thread on the subject; which you helped destroy, with the aid of the main culprit above, who teaches the satanic doctrine that Christ undid His own Law.

[JRMoore82]

NIV version
“Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭34:27-28‬ ‭NIV‬‬
http://bible.com/111/exo.34.27-28.niv

““The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ” declares the LORD. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭NIV‬‬
http://bible.com/111/jer.31.31-34.niv

““Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭NIV‬‬
http://bible.com/111/mat.5.17-18.niv

“It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬
http://bible.com/111/heb.8.9.niv


KJV version
“And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭34:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/exo.34.27-28.kjv

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/jer.31.31-34.kjv

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/mat.5.17-18.kjv

“Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/heb.8.9.kjv

[TruKnight]

I have been saying "If you love God, keep His commandments."

I think a review of 1 john 3-5 is in order here:

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us

If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

cliffs: love god, love the brethren, demonstrate that love with fruit/works, and you know and have confidence that you are saved to the uttermost. never having a ham sammich is not keeping his commandments, but having love for one another is keeping his commandment, for if god is love then we ought also to love in like manner. and love is this: 'joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.'

and also, the spirit will grow those things in us over time, because we are all works in progress, and while we may not have perfectly sinless character yet, we can measure that growth going forward by the declining amount and power that the old nature has over us, as the power of the spirit gains more and more victory in us over the years. remember that even abraham, after he had been called, just moved up river for a while before he went to israel, and his faith grew over time until the day he was asked to sacrifice his only son, whom he loved, and without hesitation he did so. so when we stumble into sin, what we do is confess it, according to 1 john 1:9, and rise up and continue to press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of god in christ jesus. remember what david's winning character trait was, and why he is always spoken of in glowing terms, despite his failings; his repentant heart.

cliffs of cliffs: I <3 you guise!


also, lets shift gears now. im sure you all have noticed how many depressed/lonely brahs come to the misc and look for answers. I know I try to minister and provide information and prayer, but I wonder if we could be more effective for the gospel here. nevermind that we all have differences of doctrine to one degree or another, we are still unified on the gospel of love, and I hope that that spirit is what the outside world sees in us here. just something I had on my mind today.

[BrosefMengele]

Not gonna read that wall of text. Cliffs?

[cheachea]

Not gonna read that wall of text. Cliffs?

You should read it. It's worth your time SRS.

[Harbinger]

I see you are named harbinger, but a harbinger of what I wonder?

Actually my name is Steve, Harbinger is just an online nickname.

[Maylie]

Christian Misc...I have missed you.

Glad to be back.

[Aircommander91]

Actually my name is Steve, Harbinger is just an online nickname.

goddamnit Steve.

[Maylie]

I hope everyone has a blessed Friday.

[BrosefMengele]

I hope everyone has a blessed Friday.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=174355161

[uwootm8]

Hi everyone.

I am trying to find a convincing reconciliation of the two-natures of christ doctrine. WLC's response was really bad. For the record here it is: is:http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defen...ranscript/s6-7

It's unconvincing because (TLDR):

- Implies the human nature can somehow suppress essential attributes of the divine nature
- Seems to ignore the fact that God would constantly, always, have all knowledge present in His "consciousness" (if you even want to talk about God like that). Not being able to recall facts instantaneously (or even needing to "recall" them) is a human weakness.

Anything you know of that's noteworthy?

Also, @lasher (or others). How do you feel about the "Loving God" rationalization of the trinity? I hear it a lot from Christians. Its almost a meme at this point.

The gist of the argument goes something like, because God is all-loving from eternity, He must have always had something to love. Since this requires an object of love, a singular-person God does not fulfil this without having to create (ie is dependent on His creation to love). What are your honest thoughts on this argument?

[uwootm8]

On a side note, why is this thread still going on? I feel like coming back every 5 months or so, all I see is people spamming bible verses and calmwind going ape

[lasher]

The gist of the argument goes something like, because God is all-loving from eternity, He must have always had something to love. Since this requires an object of love, a singular-person God does not fulfil this without having to create (ie is dependent on His creation to love). What are your honest thoughts on this argument?

I think it's a great argument for the triune nature of God.

I don't feel like rewriting things I've already said and don't think have been refuted (not referring to you)

If God is love, there needs to be an object of love. Saying God exists as three persons subsisting in one essence does in fact make him more loving. In fact, it is the only possible way to make sense out of the phrase "God is love". If God is not triune, who was the object of his love before he laid the foundations of the cosmos? If God is not triune, then in order to love he was forced by his own nature (if he is indeed by his nature, love) to create.

As for what the nature of that relationship was: Everything changes when you perceive God as Father, Son, and Spirit. You now have a God who was never alone, but has been in a loving relationship through all eternity, as the Father has loved the Son in the Spirit. Now loving others isn't some strange or novel thing for God. It isn't something new that comes with creation. Creation instead becomes the expression of that loving relationship existing withing God from all eternity.

If God were just one person, he could not intrinsically be loving, before creation he had no one to love. IF God were two persons, God might be loving, but in an excluding, ungenerous way. This is the beauty of the trinity. When love between two people is happy, healthy and secure, they rejoice to share it. Being perfectly loving from all eternity, the Father and the Son have delighted to share their love and joy with and through the Spirit.

As Johnathan Edwards noted "The fellowship of the Trinity is the very happiness of the Deity, as like all other true happiness, it consists in love and society."

[uwootm8]

I think it's a great argument for the triune nature of God.

I don't feel like rewriting things I've already said and don't think have been refuted (not referring to you)

Honestly this argument seems very ad-hoc to me (if you dont mind me discussing this). I could just say that because God is All-loving there ought to be eternal love between more than just three persons. Nobody can deny that one person loving three other persons is better than loving two persons. You can't just stop at three. So there should be four persons in the Godhead.

Infact if you want to take this thinking to its logical conclusion, why stop at four? The all-loving God should really have an infinite number of persons eternally loving each other (but this is not logically possible).

I would find this argument more agreeable if the godhead stopped at two. This whole "sharing the love" line strikes me as very contrived.

Who came up with this argument? is it a classical argument?


Also, IMO, it only really carries some weight between Christians who say things like "God is love".

[uwootm8]

Thx for the rep message bb.

Where are the good ol days of the misc gone?

Fuark even those long threads with boseador is better than this place now.

[lasher]

Thx for the rep message bb.

Where are the good ol days of the misc gone?

Fuark even those long threads with boseador is better than this place now.

Not even a small lie our past discussions made me learn a lot about my faith and yours.

edit: I will get to the response above when I can ( on vacation)