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  1. #6001
    Registered User breathinglife's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by arn710 View Post
    I met him/her at the Arnold in 2013

    Seemed pretty manly to me
    Weird. Never met him in person. But yeah, certainly does have a manly online persona.
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  2. #6002
    Weight Gain 4000 308smk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    Yes, we absolutely should treat such people with kindness across the board. This becomes a problem, however, when they demand to be treated the same as another sex in public facilities.

    It's quite relevant to the gym-going community. Transgender men have in some places insisted on using the women's locker room. One woman complained because a man in women's clothes was using the women's locker room at a Planet Fitness, and they revoked her membership:
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living...gender-member/

    Now, part of the problem is that many, many "transgender men" still identify as being attracted to women--Matt Kroc and Bruce Jenner are two prime examples. My wife certainly won't feel comfortable changing in locker room at a gym where transgender men are allowed to walk it whenever they like and take a gander at the women there.
    There you go. I completely agree that human sexuality is a massive shade of grey be it straight, gay, bi, les, whatthefukever, and that's fine, but your biological sex/gender is your sex/gender. You have either male or female chromosomes. You can't just decide to change that, and I don't think it should be celebrated or applauded, but treated for what it is. A mental issue.

  3. #6003
    Powerlifting Mod isaku900's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Daemonium View Post
    This is news to me as well. Don't really follow him that much.
    tbh, hasn't really been relevant in powerlifting since 2009/2010...
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  4. #6004
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    Hit all my openers last week 617/342/633 and BW is at 216.8 as of this morning. should be an easy deload week as I get ready for next weeks meet.

  5. #6005
    Powerlifting Mod isaku900's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    Now, part of the problem is that many, many "transgender men" still identify as being attracted to women--Matt Kroc and Bruce Jenner are two prime examples. My wife certainly won't feel comfortable changing in locker room at a gym where transgender men are allowed to walk it whenever they like and take a gander at the women there.
    As a discussion question: Would she feel comfortable with an XX-chromosomed, but very very lesbian woman at the locker next to her?

    (also nomenclature, transgender man = FtM, trans woman is MtF)

    edit: also I do believe we've established our cred as powerlifting hipsters...not sure if wanted
    Last edited by isaku900; 07-27-2015 at 11:31 AM.
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  6. #6006
    Personal Record Holder Rags85's Avatar
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    I thought transgenders and homosexuals were not a mental disorder because of how common they are. For lack of a better word, I thought they were just a different order than the majority of the population. Like autism is a mental disorder, but since transgender and homosexuals are far more common its not a disorder.

    I'm also generally very accepting and claim being ignorant on the topic because I basically don't care what others views are, so I may not know what I'm talking about.

  7. #6007
    Registered User Jisoku's Avatar
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    It is by medical definition a mental disorder.

    11% of children have ADD, and to still a mental disorder. It doesn't matter how many people des with it.

  8. #6008
    Registered User breathinglife's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    As a discussion question: Would she feel comfortable with an XX-chromosomed, but very very lesbian woman at the locker next to her?

    (also nomenclature, transgender man = FtM, trans woman is MtF)

    edit: also I do believe we've established our cred as powerlifting hipsters...not sure if wanted
    Yeah, I was being obtuse purposefully using the wrong terminology to make a point. Remember, I just finished a Ph.D. in the humanities so I've spent my years reading Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick, Judith Butler, Michele Foucault, etc.

    I anticipated this question, and I don't think she would mind in the same way. She probably would feel somewhat uncomfortable, but there really aren't that many gay people out there, so it's not so often a concern. Americans severely overestimate the percentage of the population that is gay: it is only 3.8% according to Gallup. The idea that any straight man could put on women's clothes and enter a locker room is quite a different story. I think part of this is because the percentage of male on female rape/abuse is so staggeringly high compared to female on female rape/abuse.

    I also think the segregation of locker rooms is both about sex and partly about sexuality if that makes sense.
    Last edited by breathinglife; 07-27-2015 at 11:53 AM.
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  9. #6009
    Registered User breathinglife's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rags85 View Post
    I thought transgenders and homosexuals were not a mental disorder because of how common they are. For lack of a better word, I thought they were just a different order than the majority of the population. Like autism is a mental disorder, but since transgender and homosexuals are far more common its not a disorder.

    I'm also generally very accepting and claim being ignorant on the topic because I basically don't care what others views are, so I may not know what I'm talking about.
    U.S. population is 3.8% homosexual, 0.3% transgender. [Gates, Gary J. (April 2011). "How many people are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender?". Williams Institute, University of California School of Law.]

    So, autism is more common than transgender, not as common as being homosexual. Mental disorder isn't really determined by rarity, though, so that info isn't altogether relevant.
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  10. #6010
    Registered User breathinglife's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jisoku View Post
    It is by medical definition a mental disorder.

    11% of children have ADD, and to still a mental disorder. It doesn't matter how many people des with it.
    Well, I anticipate it will not be classified a mental disorder much longer. The DSM is an arbitrary set of guidelines that is quickly pushed by political/social consensus.

    EDIT: DSM eliminated gender-identity disorder in 2012, replacing it with gender dysphoria which is or isn't the same thing depending on who you ask. Semantics.
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  11. #6011
    BAMCIS!!! darren.dugan's Avatar
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    Huh, I never knew about this Kroc transgender thing. Freaking weirdo. And I agree with what most of you guys are saying about the stuff. Your biology is what makes you male or female, not what you want people to identify you as. Otherwise, I would identify as a house cat and lay around the house all day doing nothing and call people bigots when they refused to call me by my cat name: Furrball.

    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    tbh, hasn't really been relevant in powerlifting since 2009/2010...
    True

    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    edit: also I do believe we've established our cred as powerlifting hipsters...not sure if wanted
    Hasn't it been like this the entire time?
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  12. #6012
    Powerlifting Mod isaku900's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rags85 View Post
    I thought transgenders and homosexuals were not a mental disorder because of how common they are. For lack of a better word, I thought they were just a different order than the majority of the population. Like autism is a mental disorder, but since transgender and homosexuals are far more common its not a disorder.

    I'm also generally very accepting and claim being ignorant on the topic because I basically don't care what others views are, so I may not know what I'm talking about.
    it (gender dysphoria) is a disorder per DSM-5, because its a disorder it can be diagnosed and covered by health insurance, one of the treatments is gender reassignment and full legal/social transitiions.

    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    Yeah, I was being obtuse purposefully using the wrong terminology to make a point. Remember, I just finished a Ph.D. in the humanities so I've spent my years reading Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick, Judith Butler, Michele Foucault, etc.
    figured as much. also boo.

    I anticipated this question, and I don't think she would mind in the same way. She probably would feel somewhat uncomfortable, but there really aren't that many gay people out there, so it's not so often a concern. Americans severely overestimate the percentage of the population that is gay: it is only 3.8% according to Gallup. The idea that any straight man could put on women's clothes and enter a locker room is quite a different story. I think part of this is because the percentage of male on female rape/abuse is so staggeringly high compared to female on female rape/abuse.

    I also think the segregation of locker rooms is both about sex and partly about sexuality if that makes sense.
    like many things depends on location. I'm pretty exposed to LGBTetc issues because of my proximity to San Francisco and the number of LGBTetc friends I have, including some people very close to me. Much more prevalent that you'll be in a locker room next to someone who is attracted to your sex around here, like many things you acclimatize to it.

    also you're being obtuse (on purpose again?) transitions are much much more than just putting on women's clothes. after all Matt Kroc experimented as Melissa in cross dressing before coming to grips with the need to transition fully and become Janae. Any straight man who is interested in raping a woman in a locker room....would just go in, no?
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  13. #6013
    BAMCIS!!! darren.dugan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    U.S. population is 3.8% homosexual, 0.3% transgender. [Gates, Gary J. (April 2011). "How many people are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender?". Williams Institute, University of California School of Law.]
    You would think it's more like 50% LBGT with the way the media glorifies it. Gotta be the most vocal minority out there right now. Then again, I think it's also a tool the media is using to distract the population from legitimately important issues going on in the world. You wouldn't even know we're still at war all around the world if you only watched the mainstream news.
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  14. #6014
    Registered User breathinglife's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    also you're being obtuse (on purpose again?) transitions are much much more than just putting on women's clothes. after all Matt Kroc experimented as Melissa in cross dressing before coming to grips with the need to transition fully and become Janae. Any straight man who is interested in raping a woman in a locker room....would just go in, no?
    Not quite; this is part of the problem. The whole transition construct is a binary one in which an individual transitions and then becomes another gender. This fails to account for much of the transgender spectrum. The fact is that many individuals transition back and forth constantly, some because of hesitance, others just because they want to. They may present as a woman sometimes, a man at others. The transgender movement seems to insist that people eventually be one or the other, which is strange, and quite behind-the-times when you look at recent gender theory. Really, gender theorists were beyond that even in the 80s, but the socio-political movement wants to establish credibility, thereby modeling themselves after the binary male/female model that is already in place.

    I think you misread my comment about straight men. Matt Kroc, for example, is still attracted to women. I don't think most women would be comfortable with the idea of him/her coming into the same locker room, precisely because a mtf transgender isn't the same thing as a woman, which seems to be what we are called upon to accept, hook, line, and sinker.

    Again, this binary transition paradigm that the movement is using is just too reductive and doesn't clearly represent the movement; it's just there to establish credibility.

    I don't have anything against gays and transgenders. In fact, like you I have several such friends and many acquaintances--several faculty at my university fit those descriptions. I'm just saying that the idea that we should regarding a MtF transgender as precisely the same as a cisgender woman is a ridiculous conflation, and even glosses over the complexities of the transgender community.

    Enjoying the discussion, btw--wasn't sure if it'd fly here.

    EDIT: I went back and edited for egregious typos and errors in terminology.
    Last edited by breathinglife; 07-27-2015 at 12:06 PM.
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  15. #6015
    Powerlifting Mod isaku900's Avatar
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    I was asked to take my shirt off, called a bruiser/brute/big boy/powertop, and felt up a couple times yesterday.

    my gf got a bit defensive.
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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    Not quite; this is part of the problem. A transition is a binary construct where one transitions and becomes another gender. This fails to account for much of the transgender spectrum. The fact is that many individuals transition back and forth constantly, some because of hesitance, others just because they want to. They may present as a woman sometimes, a man at others. The transgender movement seems to insist that people be one or the other, which is strange, and quite behind-the-times when you look at recent gender theory. Really, gender theorists were beyond that even in the 80s, but the socio-political movement wants to establish credibility, thereby modeling themselves after the binary male/female model that is already in place.

    I think you misread my comment about straight men. Matt Kroc, for example, is still attracted to women. I don't think most women would be comfortable with the idea of him/her coming into the same locker room, precisely because a mtf transgender isn't the same thing as a women.

    Again, this binary transition paradigm that the movement is using is just too reductive and doesn't clearly represent the movement; it's just there to establish credibility.

    I don't have anything against gays and transgenders. In fact, like you I have several such friends and many acquaintances--several faculty at my university fit those descriptions. I'm just saying that the idea that we should regarding a MtF transgender as precisely the same as a cisgender woman is a ridiculous conflation, and even glosses over the complexities of the transgender community.

    Enjoying the discussion, btw--wasn't sure if it'd fly here.
    i agree especially on genderfluidity, and I believe kroc would agree as well, Janae describes herself as genderfluid, no? Simplifying things for a political message is unfortunately a necessity in this country. If its too complex people simply won't be able to understand at all. So transwoman = woman, transman = man is a reductive political messaging statement, which will yes hold back parts of the trans/genderfluid movement as it pushes others forward.

    It becomes a matter of to what degree do we establish norms then. would a transgender locker room suffice? would it be a necessary accomodation under the ADA (I could easily see that argued) to what degree should gyms/fitness facilities have to accomodate it? In San Francisco there's no issue, trans people use the gender locker room they're presenting as, and no one really gives a hoot. Outside the bay area or even in areas of the south, north and east bays there may be an issue with trans people using what gender they're presenting as, but would also attract untoward (possibly hostile) attention using a trans-locker room.

    Does 0.3% of the population dictate the need for the expense of setting up a third locker room? Wouldn't it be...less complex for transpeople to use the locker room their presenting as, and sorry to cis-women/cis men a bit of uncomfortability?
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  17. #6017
    Registered User breathinglife's Avatar
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    Haha. Yeah, I've had a bit of that at my gym in the olden days.

    Just to state my views more concisely:

    My main hang up is this: it seems the transgender movement wants a lot of recognition, a lot of understanding of what MtF and FtM transitions are, the reasoning behind them, the psychology behind them. They want to have their story told, known, and understood.

    Once I do that, however, and see the complexity of the MtF transgender, then the transgender community seems to demand that I regard MtF transgenders exactly the same as I would female cisgenders, i.e., normal women. The implication is that for me to do anything else would be disrespectful. I simply can't give credence to such a specious claim.

    A MtF transgender is someone who was born male, and then attempted to transition into a female gender afterward. The transition is often lengthy, painful, etc. Even many transitioned MtF transgenders retain much of their male characteristics: they may still have a penis, speak with a male voice, appear "manly", etc.

    A cisgender female is a woman who was born a female and remained a female.

    Those two classes of people and their experience is not the same socially or psychologically by any stretch of the imagination. So the entire conflation of the two in political discussions really seems to confuse things, and I'm not sure what the solution would be.
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    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    i agree especially on genderfluidity, and I believe kroc would agree as well, Janae describes herself as genderfluid, no? Simplifying things for a political message is unfortunately a necessity in this country. If its too complex people simply won't be able to understand at all. So transwoman = woman, transman = man is a reductive political messaging statement, which will yes hold back parts of the trans/genderfluid movement as it pushes others forward.

    It becomes a matter of to what degree do we establish norms then. would a transgender locker room suffice? would it be a necessary accomodation under the ADA (I could easily see that argued) to what degree should gyms/fitness facilities have to accomodate it? In San Francisco there's no issue, trans people use the gender locker room they're presenting as, and no one really gives a hoot. Outside the bay area or even in areas of the south, north and east bays there may be an issue with trans people using what gender they're presenting as, but would also attract untoward (possibly hostile) attention using a trans-locker room.

    Does 0.3% of the population dictate the need for the expense of setting up a third locker room? Wouldn't it be...less complex for transpeople to use the locker room their presenting as, and sorry to cis-women/cis men a bit of uncomfortability?
    Good questions, and I won't pretend to have answers at all. Personally, I'm not a shy person, and I'm not bothered by whoever being in a locker room or doing my weigh in at a PL meet.

    That said, I guess I just think we should be sympathetic to women who may feel threatened or self-conscious in what is normally a safe place, if we're going to feel sympathy for MtF transgenders who would feel conspicuous in a male locker room, knamsaying?
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    If the PL Fam thread is going to get all hot topics for second, I suppose I should seize the moment and post this:

    Fast forward to 5:15 for jimmies rustled all around. Shapiro asks transgender Zoey/Bob Tur, "What are your genetics, sir?" after which Tur tells him he is going to send him home in an ambulance.


    Perfect fodder for the Effective Research Writing class I'm teaching right now. (It's my university's "write-papers-on-controversial-current-events-topics" class.)

    If you haven't noticed, I enjoy these topics. #jimmiesunrustleablecrew
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    Originally Posted by Jisoku View Post
    It is by medical definition a mental disorder.

    11% of children have ADD, and to still a mental disorder. It doesn't matter how many people des with it.
    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    U.S. population is 3.8% homosexual, 0.3% transgender. [Gates, Gary J. (April 2011). "How many people are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender?". Williams Institute, University of California School of Law.]

    So, autism is more common than transgender, not as common as being homosexual. Mental disorder isn't really determined by rarity, though, so that info isn't altogether relevant.

    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    it (gender dysphoria) is a disorder per DSM-5, because its a disorder it can be diagnosed and covered by health insurance, one of the treatments is gender reassignment and full legal/social transitiions.
    Gotcha. Makes sense, although I thought the percentages where higher.

    Originally Posted by darren.dugan View Post
    You would think it's more like 50% LBGT with the way the media glorifies it. Gotta be the most vocal minority out there right now. Then again, I think it's also a tool the media is using to distract the population from legitimately important issues going on in the world. You wouldn't even know we're still at war all around the world if you only watched the mainstream news.
    Hey Furrball, shouldn't you leave this discussions to the humans.

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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    Haha. Yeah, I've had a bit of that at my gym in the olden days.
    wasn't at the gym lol, but yeah commercial gyms in SF have that from time to time.

    Just to state my views more concisely:

    My main hang up is this: it seems the transgender movement wants a lot of recognition, a lot of understanding of what MtF and FtM transitions are, the reasoning behind them, the psychology behind them. They want to have their story told, known, and understood.

    Once I do that, however, and see the complexity of the MtF transgender, then the transgender community seems to demand that I regard MtF transgenders exactly the same as I would female cisgenders, i.e., normal women. The implication is that for me to do anything else would be disrespectful. I simply can't give credence to such a specious claim.

    A MtF transgender is someone who was born male, and then attempted to transition into a female gender afterward. The transition is often lengthy, painful, etc. Even many transitioned MtF transgenders retain much of their male characteristics: they may still have a penis, speak with a male voice, appear "manly", etc.

    A cisgender female is a woman who was born a female and remained a female.

    Those two classes of people and their experience is not the same socially or psychologically by any stretch of the imagination.
    I can agree with your conclusion that cis and trans females are not the same 100% across the board, generally very different socialization and very different experiences and different but present dangers.

    I don't believe I can treat cis and trans females differently based on what they present, I'm not going to treat cis and trans females the absolute 100% same (wouldn't hit on a trans female, the same as I wouldn't hit on a lesbian assuming they were both presenting and recognizable as such) but I wouldn't necessarily characterize the trans movement as wanting 100% exact same treatment, right now my understanding is that the trans movement wants to not be actively attacked, disrespected and marginalized/dismissed. My understanding is that trans people want to not be told they're not "real".

    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    Good questions, and I won't pretend to have answers at all. Personally, I'm not a shy person, and I'm not bothered by whoever being in a locker room or doing my weigh in at a PL meet.

    That said, I guess I just think we should be sympathetic to women who may feel threatened or self-conscious in what is normally a safe place, if we're going to feel sympathy for MtF transgenders who would feel conspicuous in a male locker room, knamsaying?
    agreed that no one should feel threatened or self conscious in a safe place...but since when is a locker room a safe place you went to Jr. High same as the rest of us 'muricans.

    locker room was dangerous as ****...until I joined the football team and gained 90lbs
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    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    I was asked to take my shirt off, called a bruiser/brute/big boy/powertop, and felt up a couple times yesterday.

    my gf got a bit defensive.
    Maybe she was worried you might switch teams...

    lol
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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    If the PL Fam thread is going to get all hot topics for second, I suppose I should seize the moment and post this:

    Fast forward to 5:15 for jimmies rustled all around. Shapiro asks transgender Zoey/Bob Tur, "What are your genetics, sir?" after which Tur tells him he is going to send him home in an ambulance.
    [you tube]ZLcsZe0vRZ8[/youtube]

    Perfect fodder for the Effective Research Writing class I'm teaching right now. (It's my university's "write-papers-on-controversial-current-events-topics" class.)

    If you haven't noticed, I enjoy these topics. #jimmiesunrustleablecrew
    I saw ben shapiro tweet that the other day. He is the GOAT debater. so damn quick and smart.
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    genetics questions open up a world of genetic disorders and ****.

    remember that female olympian runner who was a "androgenic nonresponder XY" ?

    XY chromosomes but didn't respond to the testosterone release in the whatever week of gestation, so the Y-chromosome never expressed.

    and broken tail XX chromosomes who express as a Y-chromosome? and XXY and XXX who express oddly?

    I mean we're dealing with micro percentages already with trans people, how are their chromosomes any more relevant than slightly more rare genetic disorders and/or "issues" during gestation. Either way they're born a certain way....

    Originally Posted by Daemonium View Post
    Maybe she was worried you might switch teams...

    lol
    think she was more worried about the dudes asking being completely naked and grabbing me. she felt like she had to start kissing me and/or yelling "mine!"
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    You guys aren't alone: Americans have generally overestimated the gay population. Polls have shown that your average American estimates gay population at ~25% over the past few years. It's an interesting statistic for many reasons.

    Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post
    I don't believe I can treat cis and trans females differently based on what they present, I'm not going to treat cis and trans females the absolute 100% same (wouldn't hit on a trans female, the same as I wouldn't hit on a lesbian assuming they were both presenting and recognizable as such) but I wouldn't necessarily characterize the trans movement as wanting 100% exact same treatment, right now my understanding is that the trans movement wants to not be actively attacked, disrespected and marginalized/dismissed. My understanding is that trans people want to not be told they're not "real".
    Sure, and I understand that, and in practice I treat such individuals with respect. What I'd say in conversation with a trans person is quite different than what I'll say here on a somewhat anonymous forum, or in a more theoretical discussion of the issue. It's not that my views change depending on location, but rather that I'm a bit more prudent about what I say depending on who I'm around--which is a basic aspect of being a nice human person.

    It's a little easier for me since I've been in academia so long, as it is for you living in SF area. Even though I'm in a more conservative part of the country, my circles are quite liberal, so being around people with opposing views is easy for me. Also, most of my academic friends are so liberal that though they support the LGBT movement, they also roll their eyes at it a bit because of its oversimplification of such issues. So they don't mind me critiquing it when we discuss such things.
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    Originally Posted by simpson54 View Post
    I saw ben shapiro tweet that the other day. He is the GOAT debater. so damn quick and smart.
    If you agree with him, he comes off as awesome. If not, he seems like a twerp. I agree with him most of the time, though he can be very needling to his opponents.

    He must be on beta blockers to keep an even voice after Tur gets in his face like that.
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    Originally Posted by breathinglife View Post
    If you agree with him, he comes off as awesome. If not, he seems like a twerp. I agree with him most of the time, though he can be very needling to his opponents.

    He must be on beta blockers to keep an even voice after Tur gets in his face like that.
    Thats very true hahaha I really like the interview he did with piers about gun control though
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    They can "identify" as whatever they want, but a guy who cuts his dick off is a mutilated man, not a woman.

    And in regards to whether or not it's a disorder, they take drugs and have surgery to "fix" it. That's a disorder.

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    Originally Posted by simpson54 View Post
    Thats very true hahaha I really like the interview he did with piers about gun control though
    I'll have to watch it. It will be interesting as I have quite mixed feelings about gun control.
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