Do you think macronutrients matter?

[TAPenrod]

I want to make better nutrition recommendations for my clients beyond "choose lean meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds." I have a client that wants to gain weight so I calculated his BMR using the Harris Benedict Formula and then added 500 calories putting him at a total of 3,000 per day. Now, he also wants to put on muscle so I knew I wanted him to have plenty of protein. At first, I tried to calculate 1.8g protein per kg of BW but my numbers for the other nutrients didn't seem right. So, after trying a few other calculations I decided to split the macros 30/30/40. This puts him at 225g protein, 300g carbs, 100g fat.

This seems like a lot of carbs but that might be due to my paleo background. Fat seems a little high too but he weighs 147lbs and I know some trainers recommend 1/2 BW in fat which would put him at 73.5g fat.

What do you guys think? Do you make dietary recommendations based on macro splits or do you focus more on caloric intake?

Thank you for the help.

[health4life24]

Focus on meeting protein and fat requirements first, and then fill the remainder of the calories from whichever combination of macronutrients the client prefers. For example, some people prefer higher fat over high carb, whereas for others the opposite is true. Things to consider here is what helps keep them satisfied longer, and also what helps them perform at their best. Some clients might expect you to just give them numbers to follow, but I like to take the approach of asking the client his or her opinion and how they feel.

Also, I'm not sure recommending lean meats is the best choice, especially for someone trying to gain weight. If you have a client who has to eat a decent amount of calories (say 3,000 or more) then fatty cuts of meat can help them reach their calorie goal because they're higher in calories than a lean piece of meat. Also too, if they're following a higher fat diet then it can help them meet their fat intake.

[jonmd123]

I want to make better nutrition recommendations for my clients beyond "choose lean meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds." I have a client that wants to gain weight so I calculated his BMR using the Harris Benedict Formula and then added 500 calories putting him at a total of 3,000 per day. Now, he also wants to put on muscle so I knew I wanted him to have plenty of protein. At first, I tried to calculate 1.8g protein per kg of BW but my numbers for the other nutrients didn't seem right. So, after trying a few other calculations I decided to split the macros 30/30/40. This puts him at 225g protein, 300g carbs, 100g fat.

This seems like a lot of carbs but that might be due to my paleo background. Fat seems a little high too but he weighs 147lbs and I know some trainers recommend 1/2 BW in fat which would put him at 73.5g fat.

What do you guys think? Do you make dietary recommendations based on macro splits or do you focus more on caloric intake?

Thank you for the help.

Calories first, macros second.

On a side note, a 150 pound person needs nowhere near 225g of protein a day. On a caloric surplus, they need even less - 100 grams/day would be plenty.

[iceNsteel]

1. Yes, they matter quite a lot. Especially when you have a client that wants to add lean body mass. That said:

2. If you aren't a registered dietitian you should not be giving dietary advice beyond choose lean meats, veggies, and consult your doctor or a registered dietitian. Anything else is opening you up to a world of liability if some harm were to result from nutritional advice you gave.

[rhadam]

Outside of what's already been posted, why are you using BMR as a base lol? You take his TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) and then add 10-20% to create his surplus. BMR + 500 calories may still be under his TDEE, and in that case you will not be seeing weight/muscle gain.

I'll echo this concept: don't give nutritional advice when you haven't been trained/taught to do so.

[RamsdenF]

Calories first, macros second.

This

On a side note, a 150 pound person needs nowhere near 225g of protein a day. On a caloric surplus, they need even less - 100 grams/day would be plenty.

But not this.

When you say "client wants to gain weight", I assume you mean muscle and not just fat right? A high protein diet of at least 1.5g per pound of bodyweight is optimal. Your 225g figure is good.

[jonmd123]

This

But not this.

When you say "client wants to gain weight", I assume you mean muscle and not just fat right? A high protein diet of at least 1.5g per pound of bodyweight is optimal. Your 225g figure is good.

Do you have any research other than a bodybuilding.com article supporting your argument? Virtually every doctor, dietician, sports nutritionist, etc. would disagree with your figures. The body needs less protein, not more when gaining weight (percentage of total calories at least).

[Glaiz]

Do you have any research other than a bodybuilding.com article supporting your argument? Virtually every doctor, dietician, sports nutritionist, etc. would disagree with your figures. The body needs less protein, not more when gaining weight (percentage of total calories at least).

Agree 100 percent with this guy

[SwolenBro]

Yes macro's does matter but not to an obsessed extent... as long as you're getting a balanced diet, you will be fine, but if you're diet is 90% protein, 90% carbs, 90% fat etc. then you're obviously gonna run into problems.

Calories are number one, then I would personally shoot for 1g protein per lb of bodyweight, not that this is a magic number but this will ensure you're getting enough protein to build/maintain muscle (why workout 10 hours a week and not make sure you're gonna maintain muscle?)

I also personally shoot for at least 60g of fat per day, but there have been studies showing minimum fat intake is only crucial if you are sub 10% bodyfat and as long as you're getting essential fatty acids in you will be fine.

Other than that fill up with as much carbs as you can get away with! it's the cheapest food and it's your body's main energy source... really high fat diets are silly because any extra fat you don't need will be stored as fat, rather than any extra protein will be converted to glycogen (carbs)

[health4life24]

Other than that fill up with as much carbs as you can get away with! it's the cheapest food and it's your body's main energy source... really high fat diets are silly because any extra fat you don't need will be stored as fat, rather than any extra protein will be converted to glycogen (carbs)

No. Consuming excess calories will result in fat gain. Many people on these forums alone follow high fat diets and have great success with them.

[SwolenBro]

No. Consuming excess calories will result in fat gain. Many people on these forums alone follow high fat diets and have great success with them.

Why when you hit your fat minimums would you choose to fill the extra calories with fat when nothing positive comes from it? filling extra calories with carbs is a much better idea as the body can use it for energy a lot more effectiently.

[WolfBeast]

That's quite a bit of protein, I would up the carbs more and cut back on the protein.

[WoofieNugget]

This

But not this.

When you say "client wants to gain weight", I assume you mean muscle and not just fat right? A high protein diet of at least 1.5g per pound of bodyweight is optimal. Your 225g figure is good.

Surprised to see you post something this idiotic.

[health4life24]

Why when you hit your fat minimums would you choose to fill the extra calories with fat when nothing positive comes from it? filling extra calories with carbs is a much better idea as the body can use it for energy a lot more effectiently.

It's all personal preference. There is no set standard when it comes to nutrition that eating a certain way is the right way. Not everyone responds well to higher carb diets, just as the same holds true for higher fat diets.

It's not just about hitting your calories. You have to also consider satiety, performance, and what the person enjoys.

[Ronin4help]

I want to make better nutrition recommendations for my clients beyond "choose lean meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds." I have a client that wants to gain weight so I calculated his BMR using the Harris Benedict Formula and then added 500 calories putting him at a total of 3,000 per day. Now, he also wants to put on muscle so I knew I wanted him to have plenty of protein. At first, I tried to calculate 1.8g protein per kg of BW but my numbers for the other nutrients didn't seem right. So, after trying a few other calculations I decided to split the macros 30/30/40. This puts him at 225g protein, 300g carbs, 100g fat.

This seems like a lot of carbs but that might be due to my paleo background. Fat seems a little high too but he weighs 147lbs and I know some trainers recommend 1/2 BW in fat which would put him at 73.5g fat.

What do you guys think? Do you make dietary recommendations based on macro splits or do you focus more on caloric intake?

Thank you for the help.

Both. Macros matter in terms of muscle development and/or energy expenditure. In terms of fat loss, they are also very relevant. It's a matter of understanding the functions of the pancreas and associated hormones; the functions of the glands and associated hormones; ATP; KREBs and about a dozen other physiological and anatomical components.

[TAPenrod]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think you are right that I may be stepping outside of my scope of practice. I wanted to help him see progress and he seems to really be struggling with the nutrition aspect. I'll at least see if he is getting enough calories and I'll calculate his TDEE and compare that to what I got from Harris Benedict.

I could attempt to refer him to a dietician but I doubt he'd go for it but that's my assumption. I have him on a program and he's making excellent strength gains but he thinks he's still small and he's not putting on weight fast enough.

[94beastmode]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think you are right that I may be stepping outside of my scope of practice. I wanted to help him see progress and he seems to really be struggling with the nutrition aspect. I'll at least see if he is getting enough calories and I'll calculate his TDEE and compare that to what I got from Harris Benedict.

I could attempt to refer him to a dietician but I doubt he'd go for it but that's my assumption. I have him on a program and he's making excellent strength gains but he thinks he's still small and he's not putting on weight fast enough.

Is this real life? You are a trainer it does not take a genius to calculate TDEE and set macronutrients . You don't need a nutritionist for it. A general guideline is 0.5 fat and 1.0 gram of protien per lean BW and the rest from carbs. You can play with the carbs and fat depending on the client

[Endevorforever]

This is ridiculous. Just get the optimal calorie intake, and adjust carbs and protein based on the clients needs. If the client will be engaging in myofibrillar hypertrophy, then yes they will need to exceed the common standard of .8-1.0g of protein per body weight. But that means they also have to pay attention to the quality of the protein, and how the protein will influence their nitrogen balance. Most of the dietary information about protein is for non training individuals. If he is gaining and training, he needs more protein than what is recommended for sedentary individuals. Also, the same people who tell you not to eat more protein are the same people who will tell you not to eat fat or sugar. Don't listen to that garbage because they have no idea what fat and sugar are used for, and are in as much darkness about those macronutrients as they are about protein.

[TAPenrod]

Is this real life? You are a trainer it does not take a genius to calculate TDEE and set macronutrients . You don't need a nutritionist for it. A general guideline is 0.5 fat and 1.0 gram of protien per lean BW and the rest from carbs. You can play with the carbs and fat depending on the client

I agree with that. I've already done his calculations and given him examples of how much and from what source but he seems to want a laid out meal plan. My understanding is that it would be beyond my scope of practice to actually to lay out a meal plan.

This seems more confusing than it has to be. I also think my client is being ridiculously impatient. We're 3 weeks into a strength program after finishing 4 weeks of general prep and he wants to look like Arnold.

[SerpentHearted]

I agree with that. I've already done his calculations and given him examples of how much and from what source but he seems to want a laid out meal plan. My understanding is that it would be beyond my scope of practice to actually to lay out a meal plan.

That is my opinion as well.
Entirely within our scope to recommend appropriate total calorie and macro targets, but not to do meal plans.

[RamsdenF]

Do you have any research other than a bodybuilding.com article supporting your argument? Virtually every doctor, dietician, sports nutritionist, etc. would disagree with your figures. The body needs less protein, not more when gaining weight (percentage of total calories at least).

Importance for High Intensity Training
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20798660

Compilation of 17 studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518828/

Importance when cutting
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23739654

One on Athletes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

How many you want? This is nothing newly ground breaking.

In addition, here's some quotes from Aragon:
"Nearly 2 decades ago, Dutch researchers found that while a protein-rich meal did boost GFR, it didn’t have an adverse effect on overall kidney function. In fact, there’s zero published research showing that downing hefty amounts of protein—specifically, up to 1.27 grams per pound of body weight a day—damages healthy kidneys."

"As a rule of thumb, shoot to eat your target body weight in grams of protein daily. For example, if you’re a chubby 200 pounds and want to be a lean 180, then have 180 grams of protein a day. Likewise if you’re a skinny 150 pounds but want to be a muscular 180."

Doctors, Dieticians, etc have their role....but they essentially just follow government guidelines. I'm don't claim to be an expert, but I research everything on my own in addition to reading literature from people at the top of our field. Google a random dietician...then google Aragon or Stoppani. Who would you rather look like? Who do you think is more qualified to give advice on muscle building?

[Ronin4help]

Importance for High Intensity Training
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20798660

Compilation of 17 studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518828/

Importance when cutting
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23739654

One on Athletes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

How many you want? This is nothing newly ground breaking.

In addition, here's some quotes from Aragon:
"Nearly 2 decades ago, Dutch researchers found that while a protein-rich meal did boost GFR, it didn’t have an adverse effect on overall kidney function. In fact, there’s zero published research showing that downing hefty amounts of protein—specifically, up to 1.27 grams per pound of body weight a day—damages healthy kidneys."

"As a rule of thumb, shoot to eat your target body weight in grams of protein daily. For example, if you’re a chubby 200 pounds and want to be a lean 180, then have 180 grams of protein a day. Likewise if you’re a skinny 150 pounds but want to be a muscular 180."

Doctors, Dieticians, etc have their role....but they essentially just follow government guidelines. I'm don't claim to be an expert, but I research everything on my own in addition to reading literature from people at the top of our field. Google a random dietician...then google Aragon or Stoppani. Who would you rather look like? Who do you think is more qualified to give advice on muscle building?

The 1.5 grams of protein is a shared opinion of many qualified professionals. It is also true that many agree that excess protein does not damage the kidneys. It is a fact that unused protein is urinated out. So, it could be a waste of money for some but for others it's worth going the max to ensure sufficient protein is being provided for optimal protein synthesis.

[Ronin4help]

Surprised to see you post something this idiotic.

It is not idiotic.

I have a Masters in Exercise Science. So please do not throw that ridiculous 'bro-science' term in my direction.

[RamsdenF]

Suprised to see you post something this idiotic

It is not idiotic.

I have a Masters in Exercise Science. So please do not throw that ridiculous 'bro-science' term in my direction.

What's idiotic about it? I like Ronin also have a degree in Ex. Science (BS). Not that this means Im an expert....but we learned to read research studies and learned a lot of great information about the body, nutrition, etc. Your one of the most consistent good posters that I have noticed Woofie, so I am surprised to see you in disagreement on this.

[KyleAaron]

I want to make better nutrition recommendations for my clients beyond "choose lean meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds."

How many are following this simple advice?

How many, then, do you imagine will follow more complex advice?

[jonmd123]

A BS or MS in exercise science or kinesiology covers very little on nutrition.

0.6-1 grams/pound of quality protein is more than enough for anyone's clients (I am assuming he is not working with an Olympic level athlete that trains 6 hours a day). When gaining weight, stay on the low end. When cutting, stay on the high end.

More protein is not harmful, it just makes for expensive urine.

[Ronin4help]

A BS or MS in exercise science or kinesiology covers very little on nutrition.

0.6-1 grams/pound of quality protein is more than enough for anyone's clients (I am assuming he is not working with an Olympic level athlete that trains 6 hours a day). When gaining weight, stay on the low end. When cutting, stay on the high end.

More protein is not harmful, it just makes for expensive urine.

If your ex sci education covered very little on nutrition you should get a partial refund. Like certification companies, not all schools are created equal.

[WoofieNugget]

The 1.5 grams of protein is a shared opinion of many qualified professionals. It is also true that many agree that excess protein does not damage the kidneys. It is a fact that unused protein is urinated out. So, it could be a waste of money for some but for others it's worth going the max to ensure sufficient protein is being provided for optimal protein synthesis.

That's 1.5 grams per KILOGRAM - not pound. Basic math tells you that there is a huge difference. Even in the studies that Ramsden cited they say the high end is 1.8-2 grams per kilo. That's well under 1 gram per pound unless I failed math somewhere. ACSM states 1.3-1.8 grams per kilo is quite adequate and I tend to agree with them. That means for a healthy 180 pound male you're looking at about 120 grams, not the 225 stated.

And the first study is about cycling recovery - it has nothing to do with LBM gain.

[RamsdenF]

If your ex sci education covered very little on nutrition you should get a partial refund. Like certification companies, not all schools are created equal.

This^

Jon clearly didn't get a college degree in Ex. Science or Kiniesology. Part of my curriculum was basic nutrition, special pops nutrition, and sports nutrition.

That's 1.5 grams per KILOGRAM - not pound. Basic math tells you that there is a huge difference.

No...I said exactly what I meant. 1g-1.5g per POUND of Bodyweight. I can't speak for Ronin though.

And the first study is about cycling recovery - it has nothing to do with LBM gain.

I linked that to show benefits of a high protein diet. They extend far past simply building muscle mass.

Nothing is going to convince Jon or Woofie. You guys are free to keep recommending a measly 90g of protein to 150lb men looking to build muscle mass lol. Better not have two protein shakes!!! That will only leave you with 40g for the rest of the day.

[WoofieNugget]

This^

Nothing is going to convince Jon or Woofie. You guys are free to keep recommending a measly 90g of protein to 150lb men looking to build muscle mass lol. Better not have two protein shakes!!! That will only leave you with 40g for the rest of the day.

Meanwhile what you're advocating is that a 120 pound female should have 180 grams of protein, or 4 protein shakes a day plus another 3 servings of 5-6 ounces of meat or other protein source. Good luck getting anyone to adhere to that except for elite athletes who can make eating part of their job. If your adherence is zero, what kind of positive result are you getting?