Why did God choose to create all the humans he knew would end up in hell suffering eternally? Was he incapable of doing anything to change this? Or was he unwilling to change this?
If I were God I would only actualize those individuals who I knew were going to heaven. There are even ways to make those who would have ended up in hell go to heaven without violating their free will. Just by actualizing for them the situations and events in which they freely choose the good instead of the evil. And I'm a mere mortal. Surely, God with his infinite wisdom and knowledge would know how to bring it about so that all beings he creates end up in heaven. If this is not what will happen I think that either God doesn't care or he's unwilling to do something.
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02-03-2015, 09:19 AM #1
Why does God create humans knowing they will end up suffering eternally in hell?
Pro MMA record: 0-0-0
“How could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?” - Plato
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire
“Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.” - Prophet Mohammed
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02-03-2015, 09:29 AM #2
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02-03-2015, 09:37 AM #3
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02-03-2015, 10:11 AM #4
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02-03-2015, 10:27 AM #5
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02-03-2015, 10:28 AM #6
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02-03-2015, 10:32 AM #7
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02-03-2015, 10:36 AM #8
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02-03-2015, 10:38 AM #9
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02-03-2015, 10:38 AM #10
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02-03-2015, 10:41 AM #11
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02-03-2015, 10:43 AM #12
Yeah why doesn't god just say "Hi" to the world? If he broke radio silence after 2000 years and gave everyone a state of the union address in person (none of that burning bush crap). Everyone would be in a church on Sunday. It would unite the planet and end the confusion over what to believe. No more murder or violence caused by all the competing faiths, no more wars either because everyone would want to go to heaven.
It would literally fix everything.
And yet he can't be bothered.Last edited by Hugh2; 02-03-2015 at 11:06 AM.
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02-03-2015, 10:44 AM #13
He doesn't.
Humans create elaborate fantasies to feel self-righteous. Does anyone ever believe they are going to hell? Very rarely. They always believe other humans will go to hell, to feel better about their own lives.When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.
- CS Lewis
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02-03-2015, 10:44 AM #14
in a multiverse, every action that can possibly committed happens. so an infinite amount of versions of you coexist in hell and heaven simultaneously, thus making belief in a god irrelevant along with free will
in a non multiverse, you have free will and can choose to believe in god. however, with an omnipotent/omniscient being he already knows whether or not you believe in god, thus making the choice irrelevant. if you have free will and choose to believe in god, the only way that it would matter is that he was not omniscient
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02-03-2015, 10:45 AM #15
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02-03-2015, 10:52 AM #16
Well you see it's all about faith. God doesn't want to confirm his existence because then your belief in him is meaningless (for some reason), even though lots of people claim to have had religious experiences which confirm their belief in his existence. But you don't get to have such an experience because then you'd know, and not believe he's real. And that's important, see. For some reason. He wants people to believe in him, badly, and act as if you know he's real by praying to him and glorifying him, but it's gotta be done on you thinking he's real, not knowing. Apart from religious leaders and everyday people who claim to know him, remember. Also he's very secretive some of the time despite apparently having a place where the people who don't believe him in are going to dwell and/or suffer for eternity.
"Like I said...You have the facts and you have no faith, you got a problem believing...wait a minute. You have the faith, and you have no facts, you got a problem with knowing. You have the facts...you have the faith and you don't have the facts, the faith, it is easier to build. So if you have the faith and you don't have the facts, it is easier to build the faith. You have the facts and you don't have the faith, you got a problem building the faith..."
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02-03-2015, 10:56 AM #17
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02-03-2015, 10:58 AM #18
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02-03-2015, 11:05 AM #19
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02-03-2015, 11:19 AM #20
Thanks for pointing out exactly which premise is false and why it is so.
BTW, the first paragraph and the title are questions not arguments, and even the second paragraph is a question with a hypothetical question too. And I'm sure you know very well that questions are not arguments...Pro MMA record: 0-0-0
“How could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?” - Plato
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire
“Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.” - Prophet Mohammed
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02-03-2015, 11:26 AM #21
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02-03-2015, 11:38 AM #22
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02-03-2015, 11:42 AM #23
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02-03-2015, 11:44 AM #24
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02-03-2015, 11:47 AM #25
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02-03-2015, 12:15 PM #26
This is why I wana go with the clockwork universe.. but idk, maybe God was playin pre-existence Sims.. having fun making the best and it got boring. Maybe not create hell and those ultimately destined for it, for entertainment, but give them free-will to sort it out.. fun way to see it, no?
Maybe it's all 'Life of Pi'. Choose the tiger even if you know who it really accords with.We need systems approach to government, no longer partisan patchwork
adios guys, ill lurk 2/15
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02-03-2015, 12:16 PM #27
What if someone is not an uncivilised savage but an atheist?
You haven't answered the question I asked which is: if God knows that some people will be uncivilized savage heathens that will go to hell, why create them? He wants them to go to hell, he doesn't care, he can't do anything?Pro MMA record: 0-0-0
“How could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?” - Plato
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire
“Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.” - Prophet Mohammed
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02-03-2015, 12:33 PM #28
Romans 9:18-24 So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?” But who indeed are you – a mere human being – to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory – even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Theodicy.Max Squat 1R - 285
5x5 Max Squat - 245
We easily forget our faults when they are known only by ourselves.
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02-03-2015, 12:51 PM #29
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02-03-2015, 12:55 PM #30
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