Question for the anti-Islam, anti-Muslims posters ... to what end?

[surf junkie]

If an airbus A-380 is coming to your country with 300 people on board ...

And 3% (9 people) have highly infectious disease that will result in the death of hundreds.

Do you let the plane land and the people disperse, because 291 of the passengers are well-meaning moderates who aren't infectious?

[indosthetic]

Well-said. Indo's remark was the standard cookie-cutter line that we see thrown around all too often. What is significant is not what religion one was born into, but that they deliberately folllow.

"deliberately" following a religion ones ancestors converted to under duress that was introduced by invaders is no coincidence.

Similar to that of Christianity and Judaism. Zoroastrians are also considered "the people of the book."

Does that explain why Zoroastrians were mercilessly persecuted by Islamic rulers in Iran and had to flee to India?
Im pretty sure there are more Zoroastrians in India than in Iran.

Maybe, as the actual history shows, they welcomed Islam and advanced with it.

This is true and not true.

The Iranian rulers converted first, mostly to gain favor of the Arabs who obviously were in-control and running the show.
The population then started to convert for two reasons:

1. Persecution of Zoroastrians from Iranian-Islamic kings
2. To escape the hard-rule of Zoroastrian Priests who imposed a Hindu-like caste-system and gain favor of the Islamic kings.

The reason "Iranians genuinely saw truth in Islam" is wayyyyyy far down the list. Its all a matter of circumstance.

[mntbikedude]

Do Muslims associate with people outside their religion? It seems not too many people interact with Muslims IRL in the U.S. and if they do they don't know they are Muslim.

One of the things that has most impacted my opinion of Muslims is by actually meeting Trance IRL. When my sons and I cycled through his city in Canada he took a day of work and graciously showed us the sights. Along that way he answered many questions about his faith. I personally was blown away by his graciousness and the deep sense of spirituality that he radiates. At the end of the day my 15 year old said something like, "you know dad Muslims are really nice people". When our family came through again He and his fiance again took time to get together with my family again.

Knowing an IRL Muslim has had a major effect on how I view the religion. And yes there are many times I get angry and fire off a response about some terrorist act, in which my response tents to lump all Muslims together. But most of the time I go back and delete it because I know it's not right to lash out at an entire religion. I don't want to embarrass Trance but I do want to say that he is everything that you see here. He is just this composed and kind and is an excellent example of seeing Islam as it should be lived. And yes he does lift.

[TranceNRG]

One of the things that has most impacted my opinion of Muslims is by actually meeting Trance IRL. When my sons and I cycled through his city in Canada he took a day of work and graciously showed us the sights. Along that way he answered many questions about his faith. I personally was blown away by his graciousness and the deep sense of spirituality that he gives off. At the end of the day my 15 year old said something like, "you know dad Muslims are really nice people". When our family came through again He and his fiance again took time to get together with my family again.

Knowing an IRL Muslim has had a major effect on how I view the religion. And yes there are many times I get angry and fire off a response about some terrorist act, in which my response tents to lump all Muslims together. But most of the time I go back and delete it because I know it's not right to lash out at an entire religion. I don't want to embarrass Trance but I do want to say that he is everything that you see here. He is just this composed and kind and is an excellent example of seeing Islam as it should be lived. And yes he does lift.

Thanks a lot man.
Similarly, whenever the topics of Mormonism and Mormons come up (which rarely happens), I let my friends and acquaintances know that Mormons are some of the nicest people I've met, and this opinion is purely based on my interaction with you and your family.

[sawoobley]

One of the things that has most impacted my opinion of Muslims is by actually meeting Trance IRL. When my sons and I cycled through his city in Canada he took a day of work and graciously showed us the sights. Along that way he answered many questions about his faith. I personally was blown away by his graciousness and the deep sense of spirituality that he radiates. At the end of the day my 15 year old said something like, "you know dad Muslims are really nice people". When our family came through again He and his fiance again took time to get together with my family again.

Knowing an IRL Muslim has had a major effect on how I view the religion. And yes there are many times I get angry and fire off a response about some terrorist act, in which my response tents to lump all Muslims together. But most of the time I go back and delete it because I know it's not right to lash out at an entire religion. I don't want to embarrass Trance but I do want to say that he is everything that you see here. He is just this composed and kind and is an excellent example of seeing Islam as it should be lived. And yes he does lift.

Fair enough and I would probably be much more comfortable with Muslims in the U.S. than other countries that seem to have a lot of problems. Is there the same uniformity of beliefs in the Muslim world as there are among Mormons? This seems like an important question to answer because most people understand there are good Muslims who, like the rest of us, just want to live a good and peaceful life but there are others who do not. How do you distinguish between the two unless there is some kind of central authority or governing body excommunicating those who break their most sacred laws? I think when people rail on Muslims they are railing on what they perceive to be a weakness of the religion to allow and even breed misinterpretation of scripture which can lead to violence and dangerous ideas.

It becomes a risk assessment. What do I gain by embracing Islam as a religion of peace and goodness and what do I risk? Many have come to the conclusion that the risk is too great and by railing on them people will remain alerted to the threat that exists within Islam. Of course, many rail because that's what they do and who they are.

[GermanBB]

If an airbus A-380 is coming to your country with 300 people on board ...

And 3% (9 people) have highly infectious disease that will result in the death of hundreds.

Do you let the plane land and the people disperse, because 291 of the passengers are well-meaning moderates who aren't infectious?

First, obviously.. if realized shortly after take-off.. and say this was super infectious bug.... obviously they don't allow people to disperse. They land and begin checking temperatures of everyone on the flight like they're doin with ebola... except put on suits and board the plane instead of them coming off. It's a great analogy to compare infectious disease to statistical realizations about extremists... neither individual can seem to exhibit much control of their actions (one being infected with a physical bug, the other infected with an ideology so out of context to the world that the world can't readily fix their minds).

tangent: Despite free expression, the US should NEVER allow the a foreigner to use our culture of freedom against us. To spout off a hateful message in anger is one thing.. but to use free expression as a chronic means of eliciting hate onto others (and YES, ESPECIALLY against host nation natives&long-term-naturalized) is deeply wrong. To this end.. the US must always embrace freedom of it's people, while considering THAT IS WHAT CONSTITUTES "AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM", and to this, they must never act like foreigners or visa-visitors are granted those same AMERICAN BENEFITS by standing on the ground. Being a citizen is a loyalty matter, not a physical location matter.

[mntbikedude]

Fair enough and I would probably be much more comfortable with Muslims in the U.S. than other countries that seem to have a lot of problems. Is there the same uniformity of beliefs in the Muslim world as there are among Mormons? This seems like an important question to answer because most people understand there are good Muslims who, like the rest of us, just want to live a good and peaceful life but there are others who do not. How do you distinguish between the two unless there is some kind of central authority or governing body excommunicating those who break their most sacred laws? I think when people rail on Muslims they are railing on what they perceive to be a weakness of the religion to allow and even breed misinterpretation of scripture which can lead to violence and dangerous ideas.

It becomes a risk assessment. What do I gain by embracing Islam as a religion of peace and goodness and what do I risk? Many have come to the conclusion that the risk is too great and by railing on them people will remain alerted to the threat that exists within Islam. Of course, many rail because that's what they do and who they are.

There are many variations on Islam just as there is Christianity or even within those that fall under the umbrella of Mormonism as you know there are some extreme break-offs such as the FLDS that are as foreign to you and I as some of these extreme sects of Islam. The biggest difference is there are much larger numbers of Muslims. The reality is if there were larger numbers of FLDS they could be just about as destructive as Isis. I have known Trance for over 10 years. I watched him as a young man here on the forum having been in the beginning a fairly recent immigrant from Iran, with all these new found freedoms, and embracing some negative aspects of western society. And then watching him re-embrace his faith and watching the positive impact that that has had on his life.

This just re-enforces my belief that God can and does use many religions to bring people to Him. I think many times we forget how many common beliefs we have with Muslims. I mean they believe in all the same stories from the Old Testament, and although they interpret the New Testament differently they still have the same stories.

Trance feel free to correct any of what I just wrote. I hope I didn't get to personal regarding your story although I do think it is important for people to know how you came to the point you are at today.

[homicidal_misc]

There are many variations on Islam just as there is Christianity or even within those that fall under the umbrella of Mormonism as you know there are some extreme break-offs such as the FLDS that are as foreign to you and I as some of these extreme sects of Islam. The biggest difference is there are much larger numbers Islams. The reality is if there were larger numbers of FLDS they could be just about as destructive as Isis. I have known Trance for over 10 years. I watched him as a young man here in the forum having in the beginning a fairly recent immigrant from Iran and all these new found freedoms, embracing some negative aspects of western society. And then watching him re-embrace his faith and watching the positive impact that that has had on his life.

This just re-enforces my belief that God can and does use many religions to bring people to Him. I think many times we forget how much common beliefs we have with Muslims. I mean they believe in all the same stories from the Old Testament, and although they interpret the New Testament differently they still have the same stories.

Trance feel free to correct any of what I just wrote. I hope I didn't get to personal regarding your story although I do think it is important for people to know how you came to the point you are at today.

They think the Bible is corrupted, so no they don't believe the same stories as they contradict the quran.

Oh, and idk if you were alluding to this or not, but they also do not believe in the same God. Both Muslims and Christians actually being able to be kind and also believing in God does not mean they believe in the same things. It's not a matter of creating separation and disturbing the kumbaya utopia you seem to fantasize about. it's a matter of being honest.

[mntbikedude]

They think the Bible is corrupted, so no they don't believe the same stories as they contradict the quran.

I don't know about that Trance could clarify. When Syrian Kid was around he got me to read part of the Quran and I was surprised at how familiar the stories were to me. The writing style is really beautiful as well. I think a Christian could sit down with a Muslim and talk about the OT stories like Noah's Ark, Danial in the Lions Den etc and you would feel like you were on the same page.

[TranceNRG]

There are many variations on Islam just as there is Christianity or even within those that fall under the umbrella of Mormonism as you know there are some extreme break-offs such as the FLDS that are as foreign to you and I as some of these extreme sects of Islam. The biggest difference is there are much larger numbers Islams. The reality is if there were larger numbers of FLDS they could be just about as destructive as Isis. I have known Trance for over 10 years. I watched him as a young man here in the forum having in the beginning a fairly recent immigrant from Iran and all these new found freedoms, embracing some negative aspects of western society. And then watching him re-embrace his faith and watching the positive impact that that has had on his life.

This just re-enforces my belief that God can and does use many religions to bring people to Him. I think many times we forget how much common beliefs we have with Muslims. I mean they believe in all the same stories from the Old Testament, and although they interpret the New Testament differently they still have the same stories.

Trance feel free to correct any of what I just wrote. I hope I didn't get to personal regarding your story although I do think it is important for people to know how you came to the point you are at today.

Nothing to correct. It was a great post.
Many people make too many generalizations. They don't realize that life is a journey, and each individual's environment greatly influences his/her cognition and rationality.

[TranceNRG]

They think the Bible is corrupted, so no they don't believe the same stories as they contradict the quran.

There are some stories that they agree with and some that they don't.
For example, it's a pillar of Islam that prophets and messengers of God are infallible.
As a result, whenever a biblical story portrays a prophet in a negative light, Muslims reject the authenticity and correctness of the part of that story that does so.

[homicidal_misc]

I don't know about that Trance could clarify. When Syrian Kid was around he got me to read part of the Quran and I was surprised at how familiar the stories were to me. The writing style is really beautiful as well. I think a Christian could sit down with a Muslim and talk about the OT stories like Noah's Ark, Danial in the Lions Den etc and you would feel like you were on the same page.

having similar stories does not mean each story is the same. they have drastically different theological implications. They make vastly different truth claims. It's ok to acknowledge differences or *gasp* think someone is wrong without being militant and violent. Forgive me for believing in truth and rejecting falsehoods.

[homicidal_misc]

There are some stories that they agree with and some that they don't.
For example, it's a pillar of Islam that prophets and messengers of God are infallible.
As a result, whenever a biblical story portrays a prophet in a negative light, Muslims reject the authenticity and correctness of the part of that story that does so.

right, they only accept what agrees with Islam and reject what doesn't while the worst of creatures believe in a corrupt book (muslims say this not the quran which actually says the opposite) that existed for hundreds of years before Muhammed.

[TranceNRG]

right, they only accept what agrees with Islam and reject what doesn't while the worst of creatures believe in a corrupt book (muslims say this not the quran which actually says the opposite) that existed for hundreds of years before Muhammed.

I don't understand the underlined part.
Can you re-phrase or explain?

[GreatOldOne]

This just re-enforces my belief that God can and does use many religions to bring people to Him.

Why isn't it easier to see that the more simple and fitting explanation is that it would be something God can and does use to wreak havoc and chaos?

...edit: Actually if God is basically havoc and chaos I suppose this also brings people to Him.

Nevermind.

[homicidal_misc]

I don't understand the underlined part.
Can you re-phrase or explain?

Muslims say the bible, which existed for hundreds of years before Muhammed, is corrupted and christianity is false. This isn't actually stated in the quran and the opposite is actually insinuated.

[sawoobley]

There are many variations on Islam just as there is Christianity or even within those that fall under the umbrella of Mormonism as you know there are some extreme break-offs such as the FLDS that are as foreign to you and I as some of these extreme sects of Islam. The biggest difference is there are much larger numbers Islams. The reality is if there were larger numbers of FLDS they could be just about as destructive as Isis.

Then it is unfortunate that there are not ways to distinguish corrupt Islam with an interpretation that he adheres too. All the break-offs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) all have different names so it is easy to distinguish them from the main church. Plus they are all really small and have differing beliefs and organizational structure.

[TranceNRG]

Muslims say the bible, which existed for hundreds of years before Muhammed, is corrupted and christianity is false. This isn't actually stated in the quran and the opposite is actually insinuated.

From the Islamic perspective, Islam replaced Christianity, as Christianity replaced Judaism, as Judaism replaced Abraham's system, and as Abraham replaced Noah's system

So, in the same way that a Christian believes that Christianity is the only complete and correct religion of God, a Muslim believes that Islam is the only complete and correct religion of God.

[HumptyBrah]

I'm very religiously tolerant. I also know that Muslims as a whole can't be judged by the actions of the extreme. I've met plenty of Muslims irl, and none of them have blown anything up or killed anyone.

However, it absolutely dumbfounds me that Muslims are always acting so shocked that Westerners would dislike them.

[TranceNRG]

I'm very religiously tolerant. I also know that Muslims as a whole can't be judged by the actions of the extreme. I've met plenty of Muslims irl, and none of them have blown anything up or killed anyone.

However, it absolutely dumbfounds me that Muslims are always acting so shocked that Westerners would dislike them.

Firstly, not all Muslims are shocked.
Secondly, maybe, they expected more from a culture that prides itself on inclusivity, understanding, and tolerance.

[HumptyBrah]

Firstly, not all Muslims are shocked.
Secondly, maybe, they expected more from a culture that prides itself on inclusivity, understanding, and tolerance.

I agree in part, but you have to understand that the majority of Americans didn't grow up in heavily diverse areas. For most Americans, literally the only experience they have with Muslims is news reports of another hijacking or car bombing.

I grew up in the Bay Area and one of my best friends as a child was Muslim, so my first experience with Islam was positive. For your average American in Kansas or Iowa (who likely make up the bulk of BB.com users), that's not the case.

[sawoobley]

Firstly, not all Muslims are shocked.
Secondly, maybe, they expected more from a culture that prides itself on inclusivity, understanding, and tolerance.

To be fair only liberals pride themselves on this. The rest think they put those values above other more important ones like common sense, accuracy, safety, reason, other values, etc.

[GreatOldOne]

Firstly, not all Muslims are shocked.
Secondly, maybe, they expected more from a culture that prides itself on inclusivity, understanding, and tolerance.

Expected more what?

We hate each other.

We normally try not to kill each other as much these days but that's about it.

[homicidal_misc]

From the Islamic perspective, Islam replaced Christianity, as Christianity replaced Judaism, as Judaism replaced Abraham's system, and as Abraham replaced Noah's system

except islam's views on each of those are inaccurate and I am pretty sure the quran says to BOTH Jews and Christians to continue adhere to their books in the present tense, suggesting that nothing was being replaced, but continued. The view that Christianity and Judaism are/were true until they could be replaced is incoherent unless whoever holds this view also holds a view of the two religions that is completely contradictory to their nature and what they claim.

So, in the same way that a Christian believes that Christianity is the only complete and correct religion of God, a Muslim believes that Islam is the only complete and correct religion of God.

right, so you agree this "well, everyone is right lets hold hands!" view is nonsense.

[TranceNRG]

I agree in part, but you have to understand that the majority of Americans didn't grow up in heavily diverse areas. For most Americans, literally the only experience they have with Muslims is news reports of another hijacking or car bombing.

I grew up in the Bay Area and one of my best friends as a child was Muslim, so my first experience with Islam was positive. For your average American in Kansas or Iowa (who likely make up the bulk of BB.com users), that's not the case.

I totally understand.
Lack of personal experience and encounter with "the others" often results in misguided judgments.

[TranceNRG]

except islam's views on each of those are inaccurate and I am pretty sure the quran says to BOTH Jews and Christians to continue adhere to their books in the present tense, suggesting that nothing was being replaced, but continued. The view that Christianity and Judaism are/were true until they could be replaced is incoherent unless whoever holds this view also holds a view of the two religions that is completely contradictory to their nature and what they claim.

There's a distinction between religious plurality and societal plurality.

right, so you agree this "well, everyone is right lets hold hands!" view is nonsense.

Yes. I agree.

But I also believe it's not up to us to judge other people's place in the hereafter, since we really don't know what's in everyone's heart, and we have no clue what they have gone through and what experiences they have had.

[TranceNRG]

Expected more what?

We hate each other.

We normally try not to kill each other as much these days but that's about it.

I don't believe we inherently hate each other.
However, we are being conditioned to hate each other more and more.

[mntbikedude]

Then it is unfortunate that there are not ways to distinguish corrupt Islam with an interpretation that he adheres too. All the break-offs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) all have different names so it is easy to distinguish them from the main church. Plus they are all really small and have differing beliefs and organizational structure.

Muslim is a general term such as Christian and just like within Christianity you have different sects such Mormons and just like Christianity there are Muslims who have think that some aren't really Muslims but are apostates just like some Christians don't really think that Mormons are really a part of Christianity. The only difference between the number of radical Mormon break offs and radical Muslim break offs is the shear number of members. 15 million Mormons vs 1 billion plus Muslims you just have more by relationship to the size.

Here is a story most of us in Utah wish we could forget. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven I knew this family well, I've been to their home. Sure that was a small horrific act but it still can trace it roots to a group of mainstream Mormons who became radicalized and ended up committed brutal acts of murder. Point being that they really have nothing in common with you and I or our faith but they share the same scriptures that you and I use. Just like those in Islam can have radical interpretation of what is meant in the Quran.

[invrlose123]

I wish for this religion as well as any other to cease to exist.
I wish for MEN to stop pretending they are speaking for god.
I wish for Muslims to stop complaining about their adoptive countries and let schools celebrate muther****ing Christmas.

This is a big one. I don't even give a fuk about christmas, it's the fact that they immigrated to my country and tried to change our established customs that have been going on for a long time. I know a few immigrants (mostly from pakistan) who say people who want sharia law, or want to change things like removing christmas need to go back to their own country.

[mntbikedude]

To be fair only liberals pride themselves on this. The rest think they put those values above other more important ones like common sense, accuracy, safety, reason, other values, etc.

Your own faith believes in being inclusive, understanding and tolerant of others beliefs read D&C 134.