All Pro's: Butchered Edition

[CROxMAG]

Firstly OP, thanks for this thread, I've read the whole thing and it's great that you're providing support on the programmes. I'm going to switch over from SBR to butchered 1 having concerns about progression speed. I just want to verify the excercises as I'm unsure whether I need curls as I'm doing dips. The plan:

2x8 squat
2x8 bench
2x8 row
2x8 ohp
2x8 sldl
2x8 calf raise

2x8 chins (assisted, lowering assist each successful AMRAP, through standard to weighted)
2x8 dips (assist as above)
2x8 biceps (likely seated DB curls)

I intend to do all of these, every workout day but unsure if I've created an imbalance with the 'extras' - what do you think?

Thanks again!

[rdferguson]

Firstly OP, thanks for this thread, I've read the whole thing and it's great that you're providing support on the programmes. I'm going to switch over from SBR to butchered 1 having concerns about progression speed. I just want to verify the excercises as I'm unsure whether I need curls as I'm doing dips. The plan:

2x8 squat
2x8 bench
2x8 row
2x8 ohp
2x8 sldl
2x8 calf raise

2x8 chins (assisted, lowering assist each successful AMRAP, through standard to weighted)
2x8 dips (assist as above)
2x8 biceps (likely seated DB curls)

I intend to do all of these, every workout day but unsure if I've created an imbalance with the 'extras' - what do you think?

Thanks again!

Thanks for the comment!

Bench, OHP and dips are all pushing exercise, that use (to varying degrees) the pecs, anterior deltoids and triceps. Chins, rows, SLDLs and curls are all pulling exercises, that use (to varying degrees) the traps/lats/rhomboids, posterior deltoids and biceps. Since SLDLs and curls are basically half a pulling exercise each (one only pulls with the back, the other only pulls with the arms), you would want all of the above exercises to keep the program balanced. Which is a long-winded way of saying it looks like your plan is pretty good, and I approve.

[CROxMAG]

Thanks for the comment!

Bench, OHP and dips are all pushing exercise, that use (to varying degrees) the pecs, anterior deltoids and triceps. Chins, rows, SLDLs and curls are all pulling exercises, that use (to varying degrees) the traps/lats/rhomboids, posterior deltoids and biceps. Since SLDLs and curls are basically half a pulling exercise each (one only pulls with the back, the other only pulls with the arms), you would want all of the above exercises to keep the program balanced. Which is a long-winded way of saying it looks like your plan is pretty good, and I approve.

Awesome. I'll report back in a few weeks, can't wait to get started on this.

[CROxMAG]

Hey rderfguson (or anybody)... I have a question regarding SLDLs - it turns out that i've been doing RDLs. Do you have any advice or tips for performing the SLDL? Every article or video I read seems to contradict. I've been starting from a hanging position, keeping my back at a slight arch, and pushing my hips back as I descend, as my hamstrings are pretty tight - essentially a perfect RDL. Do you have any issue with RDLs in place of the SLDL? If not, can you recommend a definitive method of performing these? I'm unsure whether the lower back should round, or what the starting position is - or locked knees, unlocked but straight, slightly bent...etc. etc...Thanks.

[rdferguson]

I'm perfectly happy for you to keep doing RDLs. SLDL seems to be more a category of exercises, rather than a specific exercise, based on the total lack of consistency you've picked up on (and I noticed it a long time ago, too). And if we accept SLDL as a category of exercises, then RDLs fit neatly in there.

[Gihsutnihc]

Hey rdferguson, I am still very new to bodybuilding and I'm still getting the gist of the basics. I wanted to start with a good program and was researching about all pro's beginner program before I stumbled on your "butchered" (improved IMO) program. This is my first week with the program, I just had a few questions about my diet and the warm ups sets while on this program. I would say I'm a "skinnyfat" guy, around 5'10 176 pounds. I was just wondering if you would recommend bulking or cutting with this program, right now I'm eating about 3000 calories since my maintenance calorie is about 2800. So I guess I've been on a slight bulk. My other questions is about warm up sets, it says 2x8 for example, should I do a warm up set before the 2 sets? And if so should it be 1/4 of the weight the first set and the second 1/2 of the weight like all pro says to do. So should I do 4 sets in total? Thanks in advance and sorry if these are stupid questions.

[rdferguson]

Hey rdferguson, I am still very new to bodybuilding and I'm still getting the gist of the basics. I wanted to start with a good program and was researching about all pro's beginner program before I stumbled on your "butchered" (improved IMO) program. This is my first week with the program, I just had a few questions about my diet and the warm ups sets while on this program. I would say I'm a "skinnyfat" guy, around 5'10 176 pounds. I was just wondering if you would recommend bulking or cutting with this program, right now I'm eating about 3000 calories since my maintenance calorie is about 2800. So I guess I've been on a slight bulk. My other questions is about warm up sets, it says 2x8 for example, should I do a warm up set before the 2 sets? And if so should it be 1/4 of the weight the first set and the second 1/2 of the weight like all pro says to do. So should I do 4 sets in total? Thanks in advance and sorry if these are stupid questions.

Hey man, thanks for the questions.

On diet:

With this program you can either cut or bulk. Both are fine. People get their panties in a knot worrying about what programs are good for cutting and bulking; in reality, any good bodybuilding program will have its place for either goal. You can handle a bit more work when bulking than cutting, but the workload on this program is pretty low, so most people will have no issues cutting on it.

If maintenance is 2,800, then 3,000 is a good target for bulking. At that rate, you'll gain about 1lb every two weeks, which is pretty much ideal. If you find yourself getting fatter more than you become muscular, I'd consider doing an anti-cheat day. So, whereas people who are cutting often have a "cheat day" (terrible name, btw) where they consume more calories than the rest of the week, have one day per week where you're in a moderate deficit. That should mitigate any fat gains without impeding on your muscle gains.

Warm Ups:

I don't like the warm up protocol that All Pro recommended in the original. As you get closer to the working weight, the jumps in weight should be the same or smaller, not larger. Using the 1x1/4, 1x1/2, 2x work sets protocol, between the final warm up set and the first work set is a much larger jump in weight than between the two warm up sets.

I've always played warm up sets by ear, not thinking too much about percentages, but using each set to progressively acclimatise myself to heavier weights so that I won't freak out when I've got the working weight loaded up. But if you want a specific protocol, I'd take what All Pro has written, and then put 1-2 sets of 1-5 reps after the second warm up set, with weights scaled accordingly. I'll give 2 examples.

Example 1:
Warm up set 1: 10x25%
Warm up set 2: 10x50%
Warm up set 3: 5x70%
Warm up set 4: 2x85%

Example 2:
Warm up set 1: 10x25%
Warm up set 2: 10x50%
Warm up set 3: 5x75%

After the first 2-3 exercises, you won't need to put as much time into warming up. Listen to your body. Will you do your work sets better if you practice the movement a little with lighter weights before diving in? If so, do 1-4 warm up sets. If not, do 0-1 warm up sets.

[DrBirkin62]

I didn't get a chance to post my last AMRAP cycle. I'd like to say I was busy (new job) but really that's an excuse for laziness lol.

I'll post my new AMRAP cycle tomorrow.

Current weights for this cycle:

Squats - 160
Bench Press - 100
BOR - 100
OHP - 65
Deadlift/Sumo - 145
Wide/Close Lat - 100
Chin pulldown lat -120
Tricep - 30
Low Row - 80
Calf - 145
Incline Chest Dumbbell - 37ish

*Starting tomorrow: bicep curl @ 45-50 lbs, maybe more

Some notes:

-Squats are finally getting difficult, especially once I hit 10+ reps.
-Bench was lowered to 95 last cycle, because I was failing 100 badly.
-I lowered tricep rope cable dramatically. I think I've been trying to do them incorrectly due to too high of a weight. My triceps are weak so I lowered the weight and I feel the muscle being worked more
-Bench is slowly going up...yay
-OHP is slow like bench. Often, my first set is fine, the second set tends to fail. Shoulders are a big weak spot for me. Kept @ 65
-Might replace the chin pulldown for the bicep curls for a little bit. I just tried to bicep curl with the 7 ft bar outside and it felt SO GOOD. I did 45x2x8. Could definitely do 50 I think.

[rdferguson]

Mmm, the triceps raise an important point: weight isn't everything. It's not uncommon to have an exercise (or multiple exercises, for that matter) in your program where doing half the weight results in twice the muscular activation and overload.

[UKlifter18]

I am about to start this today, I have been doing stronglifts 5x5 for about a month and a half. I will be in a caloric deficit as well.

[UKlifter18]

I am about to start this today, I have been doing stronglifts 5x5 for about a month and a half. I will be in a caloric deficit as well.

workout went well today. Im curious how i will handle it in a deficit.... my main goal currently is to burn fat, I lifted from the age of 14-19 everyday almost, and quit in college for about 2 years...

[rdferguson]

Odds are you'll be fine in a deficit. But time will tell, ultimately.

[PBisLife]

I started the V1 version last Saturday with my 10rep maxes. They're really low to be honest so I felt that I'd classify myself as a beginner and would easily progress through the program. Currently lifting 90lbs squats. On the 2nd day (a while ago), I only got to 8 reps on the 2nd set and had to bail the last one. Does this mean I don't progress fast enough and shouldn't use this aggressive progression or was it just a bad day? Also is it normal that my other lifts are really low. I'm only rowing around 35 pounds cause when I get to 40 I cant arch my back properly. I'm 130lbs 5'6 but even for these stats, I think my lifts are so weak.

[DoIevenEat75]

I really liked butchered edition 1.But i would like to do 3 worksets per exercise instead of 2(atleast for compounds).Will that much volume work on this progression scheme?

[rdferguson]

Hey guys, sorry for the delayed replies. Been moving house and returning to uni, so I'm not around much.

PBisLife, nothing abnormal about low starting numbers. You're no worse off than I was as a beginner. It's probably just a fluke that you got to 8 reps and failed. Maybe you needed more rest. If you have continued pushing with the program, you'll probably be able to answer that one for yourself. It is possible that the progression is too aggressive for you, but it's more likely just a matter of rest, energy levels or some other acute variable.

DoIEvenEat, only one way to find out. Give it a shot and see. So long as you can recover, more is better, so your ability to recover will be the final arbiter of whether you're better off doing 2 sets of 3.

[gimx]

Hello,

I'm 42 years old. I play tennis a lot when I was "younger". Since 1 year, I'm an user of bodyweight exercises but they have limitations, especially with legs. So I've decided to go in a gym and I found Original All Pro and this variation. This program make sense for me because I love big exercises and I think it's better to put pullup instead of curl.

But I have one problem... I can't do heavy squat and deadlift due to health issue and my physiotherapist don't recommend me this exercises (others exercises are fine)... For squat, the coach in my gym recommends me Leg Press or Smith Squat. And for DL, he recommends me leg curl and another exercise for glutes (sorry, I don't know the name of this exercise in english).

What do you think ? Good alternatives ?

And for a man like me, which version should I choose ?

Thank you

[rdferguson]

Hello,

I'm 42 years old. I play tennis a lot when I was "younger". Since 1 year, I'm an user of bodyweight exercises but they have limitations, especially with legs. So I've decided to go in a gym and I found Original All Pro and this variation. This program make sense for me because I love big exercises and I think it's better to put pullup instead of curl.

But I have one problem... I can't do heavy squat and deadlift due to health issue and my physiotherapist don't recommend me this exercises (others exercises are fine)... For squat, the coach in my gym recommends me Leg Press or Smith Squat. And for DL, he recommends me leg curl and another exercise for glutes (sorry, I don't know the name of this exercise in english).

What do you think ? Good alternatives ?

And for a man like me, which version should I choose ?

Thank you

Hi

Leg press is a definite maybe; Smith squats put similar forces through the same bodily structures as barbell squats, so if you can do one you can probably do the other (and if you can't do one, you probably can't do the other). Leg curls, and I'm guessing glute bridges or hip thrusts, are good ways to strengthen the glutes and hamstrings. So, provided you can do it all safely, leg press, leg curls and bridges might be a good alternative to squats and deadlifts, given your back health. Time will tell.

It's entirely up to you which version of the program you choose. So far, version 1 is more popular than version 2 (at least from the feedback I've received), but ultimately your preferences and your back will let you know what you need to do to keep things painfree and enjoyable.

[gimx]

Yes thanks, leg curl and hip thrust

I hesitate between your variation of AllPro and Fierce5... AllPro make more sense for me because I train full body 3 times a week with BW exercises but Fierce5 seems more strength oriented and it's good too... Hmmm hard to choose

[rdferguson]

Fierce 5 uses heavier weights, which may be a problem for your back. Or it may not. Depends.

[gimx]

Ok you're right, I have to be conservative + I prefer full-body, so I begin weightlifting with AP Butchered. Thanks

Just one more question : what's happened if I fail during the 2 weeks cycle ? For example, I begin with 8 reps, the next workout 9 reps, the next 10 reps but I fail and I can only do 9 reps. The next workout, should I start again to 8 reps or I try again 10 reps ?

[rdferguson]

Ok you're right, I have to be conservative + I prefer full-body, so I begin weightlifting with AP Butchered. Thanks

Just one more question : what's happened if I fail during the 2 weeks cycle ? For example, I begin with 8 reps, the next workout 9 reps, the next 10 reps but I fail and I can only do 9 reps. The next workout, should I start again to 8 reps or I try again 10 reps ?

Just keep going. In that example, keep trying to get 10+ reps; on the final workout, do the AMRAP test as normal and let that decide the weight you set for the next week.

[gimx]

Just keep going. In that example, keep trying to get 10+ reps; on the final workout, do the AMRAP test as normal and let that decide the weight you set for the next week.

Thank you

[nightknight23]

Op do you have an excel spreadsheet for this allpros version? Thanks for this btw!

[gimx]

Hello Ryan,

Another question please...

The only modification we'll make here is that instead of curls, we're going to use lat pull downs, or a pull up/chin up variation that you can realistically progress in an 8-12 rep range

I use lat pull down exercise (no assisted pullup machine in my gym) and I work with 50kgs. The plates weigh 5kgs, it's 10% of my current weight. I can't add 5%

What can I do ?

Thank you

[rdferguson]

Op do you have an excel spreadsheet for this allpros version? Thanks for this btw!

I do not.

Hello Ryan,

Another question please...



I use lat pull down exercise (no assisted pullup machine in my gym) and I work with 50kgs. The plates weigh 5kgs, it's 10% of my current weight. I can't add 5%

What can I do ?

Thank you

Add the 5kg and see how you go.

[gimx]

Ok , thank you :-)

[Tpx1]

Hi, I'm kinda new to proper lifting, not to working out though. Completed p90x in the past, then got seriously fat - M 30yo, 170cm, 94 kg, about 33-34%bf, high blood pressure, all that unhealthy jazz from letting myself go.
Now, couple of years older, begun p90x again, however I got access to some more weights, an incline bench and a curl bar now. I tried this workout with the limited equipment I have, and found squats basically impossible - I'm figuring out how to make a cheap squat+bench rack, but until then, db bench press should do, since fat loss is my main prio anyway.
What I wonder most about are squats; there's just no way I can do them without a rack, I'm not strong enough and too clumsy to power clean to a front squat, so I'm substituting with a sumo squat with a heavy db held at chest height, and weighted back\front lunges. I'm pretty sure I'm not hitting all the posterior muscles as a proper squat does, so are my subs at least decent enough, or should I do something else? I find the dumbbells pretty hard to grip on already and my wrists started complaing.
My lifting numbers are laughable still anyway, bp at 35kg@2x8, dl 45kg, sumo squat 40kg (mostly since I can't grip more).. so the time will come for more, but for now, am I on the right track? I will in time invest in a power rack or build it myself, and a barbell with heavy plates (I hate public gyms and am time constricted due to my job), I just wanna know if what I'm doing is right.
Hopefully this post isn't too weird, I feel kinda embarrassed

[rdferguson]

Hi, I'm kinda new to proper lifting, not to working out though. Completed p90x in the past, then got seriously fat - M 30yo, 170cm, 94 kg, about 33-34%bf, high blood pressure, all that unhealthy jazz from letting myself go.
Now, couple of years older, begun p90x again, however I got access to some more weights, an incline bench and a curl bar now. I tried this workout with the limited equipment I have, and found squats basically impossible - I'm figuring out how to make a cheap squat+bench rack, but until then, db bench press should do, since fat loss is my main prio anyway.
What I wonder most about are squats; there's just no way I can do them without a rack, I'm not strong enough and too clumsy to power clean to a front squat, so I'm substituting with a sumo squat with a heavy db held at chest height, and weighted back\front lunges. I'm pretty sure I'm not hitting all the posterior muscles as a proper squat does, so are my subs at least decent enough, or should I do something else? I find the dumbbells pretty hard to grip on already and my wrists started complaing.
My lifting numbers are laughable still anyway, bp at 35kg@2x8, dl 45kg, sumo squat 40kg (mostly since I can't grip more).. so the time will come for more, but for now, am I on the right track? I will in time invest in a power rack or build it myself, and a barbell with heavy plates (I hate public gyms and am time constricted due to my job), I just wanna know if what I'm doing is right.
Hopefully this post isn't too weird, I feel kinda embarrassed

You're doing alright with what you have available. Don't worry about posterior muscles missing out on the squat -- the SLDL does those muscles better than squats do anyway. And don't worry about the low weights -- when I first started bench pressing through a full ROM, I was using the empty barbell as my working weight (and it really was work).

[OllieN96]

I'm about to begin my first lean bulk, and while the original All Pro routine is proven effective at building size and strength, it doesn't seem to utilise the body enough (in accessory work and with this a variety of rep ranges).

As a beginner (having been lifting but not on a program for over 2 years), being young and lean bulking (most prime for gains) would Butchered Edition 2 offer better results in hypertrophy and strength than the original?

[OllieN96]

Anyone?