phosphatidic acid

[allanhouston90]

I don't think I've gotten increased focus on PA. Have to wonder if there could be anything else that could have caused the quick scale increase (food, hydration, etc) because that seems very fast.

I started on 750mg and noticed increased vascularity and pump after about a week. After maybe 5 weeks at 750mg, I bumped up to ~1300mg to see if I noticed a difference. Maybe it has to do with saturation or something, but I did get increased endurance after maybe 3 days...didn't take that long to get a perceivable difference off the increased dose. Might bump it again after a while to see if there's further difference at even higher doses or if I've reached a point of diminishing returns.

It has to do with the other stuff in SL meaning better sense of well being and focus is not something you will get from a strict pa product. And it would probably be increased glycogen retention but definitely wasn't saying 3 lbs of new muscle.

[Ninjathoskinny]

Hassle of having to mix and down the SL vs just popping some pills. Not to mention you know the exact dosage in our product. Not all products can say this.

^This is why the rest of the world hates us. Should I invest in a monkey trained to wipe and wash my ass for me too since wiping my own ass is such a hassle? I mean, not everyone can boast owning an ass-wiping monkey.

[TheFugitive]

That's a very generous offer. As I'm sure you know by now, I'm a huge PA fan; it's one of my favorite supplements, and I want to take at least 750mg PA daily regularly, and, with the price of soy lecithin being as low as it is, I plan on running >750mg. Since many users, including myself, have doubts that each serving of King contains 750mg PA, I would not want to spend ~8 weeks potentially taking less than 750mg PA. With that said, I would be willing to do an 8 week log of King V2 where I assume that it has 750mg PA, and take 750mg PA less (from granules) daily from the dose I'm taking once I begin the log (it'll be after a log on at least 1.5g PA from lecithin), and replace it with King V2. This should still be a quite beneficial log, as it should be able to compare (X g PA) to (X g PA - 750 mg PA + King V2), as well as test the potential benefits of Niagen.
If I do this log, it wold not be for some free product (the price of PA from granules is low enough that this isn't really an issue for me), but to help others to see how King V2 stacks up to, and with, some other PA sources, which can potentially help other people make a decision on which PA source to go with.

Does this sound good?

Sounds good. Are you meeting with Chris sometime soon?

[TheFugitive]

I don't get all these "let's mix this PA specific supplement with a few tablespoons of soy lecithin granules!" How do you know what's doing what? Why waste money on the PA specific supplement if you're going to be using tablespoons of soy lecithin granules? Pick one and use that.

I've been telling people this for sometime now. I wouldn't go over 1000mg

[MuscleUpCrohns]

Sounds good. Are you meeting with Chris sometime soon?

I plan on it. I'll hit him up later today and see when works best. I can't wait.

What you are experiencing is probably placebo at this point. I could be wrong though. I know the pills take about 10 days to kick in.

I don't know. Any focus aspects could easily be from the PC and other non-PA components of the lecithin granules, and I noticed better pumps/fullness after only a day or two the first time I took PA (750 mg/day), and I do notice better acute pumps during workouts with 1.5g PA than 750mg PA (although the increased dose came after weeks of consistent use of 750 mg/day).

^This is why the rest of the world hates us. Should I invest in a monkey trained to wipe and wash my ass for me too since wiping my own ass is such a hassle? I mean, not everyone can boast owning an ass-wiping monkey.

Haha. I was thinking something similar. I'm willing to spend hours at a time busting my ass in the gym day in and day out and cook and eat tons of the same foods in the name of progress/gains, but I'm not willing to scoop out a few tablespoons of granules and just down them, even if they don't taste amazing if they're going to help me progress faster, as well as save me money that I can put towards other things?

[kissdadookie]

I don't think I've gotten increased focus on PA. Have to wonder if there could be anything else that could have caused the quick scale increase (food, hydration, etc) because that seems very fast.

I started on 750mg and noticed increased vascularity and pump after about a week. After maybe 5 weeks at 750mg, I bumped up to ~1300mg to see if I noticed a difference. Maybe it has to do with saturation or something, but I did get increased endurance after maybe 3 days...didn't take that long to get a perceivable difference off the increased dose. Might bump it again after a while to see if there's further difference at even higher doses or if I've reached a point of diminishing returns.

Phospha Muscle right? The endurance could be due to you increasing the tart cherry extract when you dosed the product higher

[KillerB84]

I've been telling people this for sometime now. I wouldn't go over 1000mg

What are you basing this recommendation on? A standard daily dose of Soy Lecithin will give you more than a gram of PA per day.

Are you saying that there is some consequence to taking the recommended dosage of Soy Lecithin?

[DGarcia519]

What are you basing this recommendation on? A standard daily dose of Soy Lecithin will give you more than a gram of PA per day.

Are you saying that there is some consequence to taking the recommended dosage of Soy Lecithin?

Probably because the studies were done using 750mg and therefore you "should have no reason to take more". It's interesting that the people always touting this also happen to be reps for companies that produce a PA product .

[BlueRev]

Probably because the studies were done using 750mg and therefore you "should have no reason to take more". It's interesting that the people always touting this also happen to be reps for companies that produce a PA product .

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't dose it higher, I'm saying there is no research proving its safe or effective.

BY the way, i think it's worth a mention that concentrated PA is not cheap, i understand phosha is considered expensive, But when you actually know how much was spent etc, it's actually priced very well.
I always find it weird when a company can take an expensive ingredient and price it half the price of all the othes on the market but throw it into a blend.
Makes me scratch my head a little.

[KillerB84]

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't dose it higher, I'm saying there is no research proving its safe or effective.

BY the way, i think it's worth a mention that concentrated PA is not cheap, i understand phosha is considered expensive, But when you actually know how much was spent etc, it's actually priced very well.
I always find it weird when a company can take an expensive ingredient and price it half the price of all the othes on the market but throw it into a blend.
Makes me scratch my head a little.

There is research proving it to be safe. None yet on effectiveness (at least as an ergogenic aid).

I understand why Phospha Muscle is the price that it is. I'm sure buying the rights to use Mediator was not cheap.

[MuscleUpCrohns]

I've been telling people this for sometime now. I wouldn't go over 1000mg

I assume you're getting this number from the PS/PA complex study that used up to 1000mg PA daily for 3 weeks that focused on mental stress, considering that 1000mg is the highest amount of PA I've seen used in a human study consisting of more than 1 dose (one study measured PA and LPA absorption after oral supplementation of 1.5g PA).

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't dose it higher, I'm saying there is no research proving its safe or effective.

BY the way, i think it's worth a mention that concentrated PA is not cheap, i understand phosha is considered expensive, But when you actually know how much was spent etc, it's actually priced very well.
I always find it weird when a company can take an expensive ingredient and price it half the price of all the othes on the market but throw it into a blend.
Makes me scratch my head a little.

Well, 2 tbsp lecithin granules is a very safe dose that people have been taking daily for years/decades. Even if the lecithin granules you have are only 5% PA (low end of the range), 2 tbsp (15g) will give you 750mg PA, so it is possible to take lecithin granules as a source of PA and not mega-dose the PA. However, I wouldn't go below 2 tbsp, because if you calculate using 7-8% PA, and dose 750mg according to that, you may not be getting quite 750mg PA, because the range can go as low as 5% PA.

I'm not arguing that it isn't expensive to use Mediator in a product; I have no doubt that they charge a lot of money for a company to use their product, I'd assume that's a reason why Cutler stopped using Mediator in King. What I'm saying, and what most people are saying, is that, at the end of the day, they're concerned with getting PA, and getting a lot of it for cheap, and the lecithin granules provide this option. Of course there isn't the licensing and R&D involved in the soy lecithin granules like there is with Mediator, but that doesn't mean it's less effective because of this.

[TheFugitive]

I assume you're getting this number from the PS/PA complex study that used up to 1000mg PA daily for 3 weeks that focused on mental stress, considering that 1000mg is the highest amount of PA I've seen used in a human study consisting of more than 1 dose (one study measured PA and LPA absorption after oral supplementation of 1.5g PA).


Well, 2 tbsp lecithin granules is a very safe dose that people have been taking daily for years/decades. Even if the lecithin granules you have are only 5% PA (low end of the range), 2 tbsp (15g) will give you 750mg PA, so it is possible to take lecithin granules as a source of PA and not mega-dose the PA. However, I wouldn't go below 2 tbsp, because if you calculate using 7-8% PA, and dose 750mg according to that, you may not be getting quite 750mg PA, because the range can go as low as 5% PA.

I'm not arguing that it isn't expensive to use Mediator in a product; I have no doubt that they charge a lot of money for a company to use their product, I'd assume that's a reason why Cutler stopped using Mediator in King. What I'm saying, and what most people are saying, is that, at the end of the day, they're concerned with getting PA, and getting a lot of it for cheap, and the lecithin granules provide this option. Of course there isn't the licensing and R&D involved in the soy lecithin granules like there is with Mediator, but that doesn't mean it's less effective because of this.

I just feel going over 1000mg is waste of money. I really didn't notice an increase at higher doses. Keep me posted and please when using King pay attention to your endurance levels. I think this is where King really shines due to the Niagen. On training days you can consume both capsules and on non training days I split the dose up, AM & PM with food

[MuscleUpCrohns]

I just feel going over 1000mg is waste of money. I really didn't notice an increase at higher doses. Keep me posted and please when using King pay attention to your endurance levels. I think this is where King really shines due to the Niagen. On training days you can consume both capsules and on non training days I split the dose up, AM & PM with food

No problem. It's going to be a few weeks before I start taking King, because I want to have an idea of how just the lecithin granules treat me. I'll definitely keep an eye on endurance levels. Since I like to do relatively high-rep sets (8-12+) with relatively little rest (60-90 seconds) with a good bit of volume and frequency, that'll be important for me. One of the ways I've tracked progress lately is number of reps at 225lbs on bench press (from 225x6 to 225x15 in the past ~9 months, and I'm between 5-10lbs heavier bodyweight, with most of these gains coming in the ~4 months that I've been consistently taking PA).

[AvengeMe]

Its been a while since I've run King or SL and am currently cutting. Would the addition of PA cause any sort of weight gain? Assuming macros stay the same if adding in SL. Just don't want to throw myself off when trying to calculate cutting progress.

[acecombact1]

I wouldn't go over 1000mg either. PA increases mTOR activity. its fine and dandy for muscle building, however there is a direct link between tumor growth and mTOR activity.

[kissdadookie]

I wouldn't go over 1000mg either. PA increases mTOR activity. its fine and dandy for muscle building, however there is a direct link between tumor growth and mTOR activity.

You have to be predisposed to that tumor first and foremost that, increased mTOR is only exacerbating an already present underlying issue. Kind of like taking folate.

[kbayne]

Its been a while since I've run King or SL and am currently cutting. Would the addition of PA cause any sort of weight gain? Assuming macros stay the same if adding in SL. Just don't want to throw myself off when trying to calculate cutting progress.

It can cause weight gain by increases in muscle glycogen.

[llahhsoj]

Would the addition of PA cause any sort of weight gain? Assuming macros stay the same if adding in SL. Just don't want to throw myself off when trying to calculate cutting progress.

It may cause a couple of pound gain as well as increased hunger.

[MuscleUpCrohns]

You have to be predisposed to that tumor first and foremost that, increased mTOR is only exacerbating an already present underlying issue. Kind of like taking folate.

There is basically always going to be some risk vs reward with supplementation. With that said, I'd say that taking a few tablespoons of lecithin granules daily is a pretty safe bet, and the rewards (more muscle, faster progress) far outweigh the risks. In all honesty, people have been taking a few tablespoons of lecithin granules daily for years/decades and it seems to be very well tolerated. There really aren't many bodybuilding supplements that have a history of being used daily for years/decades.

[AvengeMe]

It can cause weight gain by increases in muscle glycogen.

It may cause a couple of pound gain as well as increased hunger.

Ahh ok. Burn 24 does something similar and kinda complicates things a bit. Think I'll just hold out until after my cut.

[acecombact1]

You have to be predisposed to that tumor first and foremost that, increased mTOR is only exacerbating an already present underlying issue. Kind of like taking folate.

!!! Every one is predisposed to cancer formations. In all eukaryotes, the target of rapamycin (TOR) signalling pathway couples energy and nutrient abundance to the execution of cell growth and division.........our understanding of the regulation and functions of mTOR has revealed the crucial involvement of this signalling pathway in the onset and progression of diabetes, cancer and ageing.


mTOR=too much cell actvity. Speeding up cell division can cause more damage to the DNA during replication. Increasing mTOR activity=increasing your risk period.

P.S i love how you like to give your 2 cents about every subject here

[MuscleUpCrohns]

!!! Every one is predisposed to cancer formations. In all eukaryotes, the target of rapamycin (TOR) signalling pathway couples energy and nutrient abundance to the execution of cell growth and division.........our understanding of the regulation and functions of mTOR has revealed the crucial involvement of this signalling pathway in the onset and progression of diabetes, cancer and ageing.


mTOR=too much cell actvity. Speeding up cell division can cause more damage to the DNA during replication. Increasing mTOR activity=increasing your risk period.

P.S i love how you like to give your 2 cents about every subject here

Like I said, it all comes down to risk vs reward. Remember, there are a great deal of elderly people (who have higher risks of cancer than younger people) who have taken/are taking a few tablespoons of lecithin granules every day for years/decades.

The primary and novel finding from our study is that the resistance exercise induced increase in muscle protein synthesis and mTOR signaling is independent of sex

[llahhsoj]

Ahh ok. Burn 24 does something similar and kinda complicates things a bit. Think I'll just hold out until after my cut.

PA in pill form would be suitable on a cut IMO.

[VO2Maxima]

PA in pill form would be suitable on a cut IMO.

This. I used PhosphaMuscle on a cut and it was fine. I was hungry all the time, and PA does increase your appetite, but I probably would have been hungry anyway. Really SL granules are okay too if your macros aren't that low yet, but once you get to poverty macros, IMO you're better off using a concentrated supplement and using the ~50 calories elsewhere.

[DamonX]

Going to get my thoughts together on how PA is going this week. Been dosing 2 tbsp of fearn's preworkout.

Does it matter how long before ur workout u dose? I ate like 4 serves of cereal with almond milk + soy lecithin and worked out legs 3 hrs later today

[hamdysayed]

Ok yall we need to shut down this silly debate over the safety of soy lecithin granules!!! Like few of yall said ppl have been using the sh!t out of it for years, and cancer !!!!!! If I can list the things surrounding us that can cause cancer oh boy that will be a long list.

[NewAgeMayan]

Going to get my thoughts together on how PA is going this week. Been dosing 2 tbsp of fearn's preworkout.

Does it matter how long before ur workout u dose? I ate like 4 serves of cereal with almond milk + soy lecithin and worked out legs 3 hrs later today

That should be ok, wouldnt go too much longer though.

[kissdadookie]

!!! Every one is predisposed to cancer formations. In all eukaryotes, the target of rapamycin (TOR) signalling pathway couples energy and nutrient abundance to the execution of cell growth and division.........our understanding of the regulation and functions of mTOR has revealed the crucial involvement of this signalling pathway in the onset and progression of diabetes, cancer and ageing.


mTOR=too much cell actvity. Speeding up cell division can cause more damage to the DNA during replication. Increasing mTOR activity=increasing your risk period.

P.S i love how you like to give your 2 cents about every subject here

The question is if the degree of the cancer you are predisposed to is going to be lethal or not. For the majority of people, this is not going to be an issue.

Let's also not forget the degree of mTOR stimulation here.

Maybe you missed my comment to folate? Mentioned it for a reason, sure you're able to pick up on that.

[MuscleUpCrohns]

Ok yall we need to shut down this silly debate over the safety of soy lecithin granules!!! Like few of yall said ppl have been using the sh!t out of it for years, and cancer !!!!!! If I can list the things surrounding us that can cause cancer oh boy that will be a long list.

I agree. Are we really going to derail this thread arguing if taking a few tablespoons of lecithin granules is going to cause cancer? Resistance exercise also stimulates mTOR. Soy PS stimulates mTOR, but it's also commonly used by and recommended for elderly people.

[CharlieKelly1]

write short phosphatidic acid for dummies please...