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  1. #1
    3D Water Chestnuts NO HYPE's Avatar
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    Pre-workout arginine (in a fasted state), significantly blunts gh

    Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2008 Jan;11(1):50-4.

    Growth hormone, arginine and exercise.

    PURPOSE OF REVIEW: To describe the effect of an acute bout of exercise on growth hormone responses and to discuss the effect of L-arginine supplementation on growth hormone responses. RECENT FINDINGS: Recent studies have shown that resting growth hormone responses increase with oral ingestion of L-arginine and the dose range is 5-9 g of arginine. Within this range there is a dose-dependent increase and higher doses are not well tolerated. Most studies using oral arginine have shown that arginine alone increases the resting growth hormone levels at least 100%, while exercise can increase growth hormone levels by 300-500%. The combination of oral arginine plus exercise attenuates the growth hormone response, however, and only increases growth hormone levels by around 200% compared to resting levels. SUMMARY: Exercise is a very potent stimulator of growth hormone release and there is considerable research documenting the dramatic growth hormone rise. At rest oral L-arginine ingestion will enhance the growth hormone response and the combination of arginine plus exercise increases growth hormone, but this increase may be less than seen with exercise alone. This diminished response is seen in both in both younger and older individuals.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
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  2. #2
    Nimbus Nutrition Rep leonidas300's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post. I have been thinking that Arginine may be more beneficial when taken postworkout rather than preworkout. Now all these preworkout supps I have are a waste
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  3. #3
    3D Water Chestnuts NO HYPE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Thanks for the post. I have been thinking that Arginine may be more beneficial when taken postworkout rather than preworkout. Now all these preworkout supps I have are a waste
    Additionaly, many of the pre-workout NO products are loaded with antioxidants (which aquire the capability to minimize optimal gains).
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    Hero. Psycho. Insomniac. Skigazzi's Avatar
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    Another study from a few years back that I posted, well, a few years back:

    Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise
    S. R. Collier, E. Collins, and J. A. Kanaley

    Department of Exercise Science, Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York

    Submitted 7 March 2006 ; accepted in final form 23 May 2006

    This study investigated the combined effect of resistance exercise and arginine ingestion on spontaneous growth hormone (GH) release. Eight healthy male subjects were studied randomly on four separate occasions [placebo, arginine (Arg), placebo + exercise (Ex), arginine + exercise (Arg+Ex)]. Subjects had blood sampled every 10 min for 3.5 h. After baseline sampling (30 min), subjects ingested a 7-g dose of arginine or placebo (blinded, randomly assigned). On the exercise days, the subject performed 3 sets of 9 exercises, 10 repetitions at 80% one repetition maximum. Resting GH concentrations were similar on each study day. Integrated GH area under the curve was significantly higher on the Ex day (508.7 ? 169.6 min?ng/ml; P < 0.05) than on any of the other study days. Arg+Ex (260.5 ? 76.8 min?ng/ml) resulted in a greater response than the placebo day but not significantly greater than the Arg day. The GH half-life and half duration were not influenced by the stimulus administered. The GH secretory burst mass was larger, but not significantly, on the Arg, Ex, and Arg+Ex day than the placebo day. Endogenous GH production rate (Ex > Arg+Ex > Arg > placebo) was greater on the Ex and Arg+Ex day than on the placebo day (P < 0.05) but there were no differences between the Ex and Arg+Ex day. Oral arginine alone (7 g) stimulated GH release, but a greater GH response was seen with exercise alone. The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates the GH response. Autonegative feedback possibly causes a refractory period such that when the two stimuli are presented there will be suppression of the somatotrope.

    endocrine; somatotrope; resistance exercise
    Last edited by Skigazzi; 02-03-2008 at 08:56 AM.
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    Registered User Rodzilla's Avatar
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    I have been doin Blast (no arginine) + a bunch of CM and BA, pumps are still solid.
    Realize that anyone with an affiliation to a supplement company in their signature has ulterior motives when making recommendations. They're primarily concerned with pushing their products. Not your safety or what's best for you.
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    Originally Posted by Skigazzi View Post
    Another study from a few years back that I posted, well, a few years back:

    Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise
    S. R. Collier, E. Collins, and J. A. Kanaley

    Department of Exercise Science, Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York

    Submitted 7 March 2006 ; accepted in final form 23 May 2006

    This study investigated the combined effect of resistance exercise and arginine ingestion on spontaneous growth hormone (GH) release. Eight healthy male subjects were studied randomly on four separate occasions [placebo, arginine (Arg), placebo + exercise (Ex), arginine + exercise (Arg+Ex)]. Subjects had blood sampled every 10 min for 3.5 h. After baseline sampling (30 min), subjects ingested a 7-g dose of arginine or placebo (blinded, randomly assigned). On the exercise days, the subject performed 3 sets of 9 exercises, 10 repetitions at 80% one repetition maximum. Resting GH concentrations were similar on each study day. Integrated GH area under the curve was significantly higher on the Ex day (508.7 ? 169.6 min?ng/ml; P < 0.05) than on any of the other study days. Arg+Ex (260.5 ? 76.8 min?ng/ml) resulted in a greater response than the placebo day but not significantly greater than the Arg day. The GH half-life and half duration were not influenced by the stimulus administered. The GH secretory burst mass was larger, but not significantly, on the Arg, Ex, and Arg+Ex day than the placebo day. Endogenous GH production rate (Ex > Arg+Ex > Arg > placebo) was greater on the Ex and Arg+Ex day than on the placebo day (P < 0.05) but there were no differences between the Ex and Arg+Ex day. Oral arginine alone (7 g) stimulated GH release, but a greater GH response was seen with exercise alone. The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates the GH response. Autonegative feedback possibly causes a refractory period such that when the two stimuli are presented there will be suppression of the somatotrope.

    endocrine; somatotrope; resistance exercise

    You beat me to it.


    Here is the full version of the 2006 study (i.e. Oral Arginine Attenuates the Growth Hormone Response to Resistance Exercise), that agrees with the current findings.... http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/00285.2006v1.pdf
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Three strikes...

    Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults.
    BACKGROUND: Growth hormone (GH) helps maintain body composition and metabolism in adults. However, basal and peak GH decline with age. Exercise produces a physiologic GH response that is subnormal in elderly people. Arginine (Arg) infusion can augment GH secretion, but the efficacy of oral Arg to improve GH response to exercise has not been explored. We investigated whether oral Arg increases GH secretion in young and old people at rest and during exercise. METHODS: Twenty young (Y: 22.1 +/- 0.9 y; SEM) and 8 old (O: 68.5 +/- 2.1 y) male and female subjects underwent three different trials following determination of their one-repetition maximum strength (1-RM); exercise only (EO; 3 sets, 8-10 reps at 85% of 1-RM; on 12 separate resistive lifts), Arg only (5.0 g), or Arg + exercise. Blood samples were collected between successive lifts, and GH (ng x ml(-1)) was determined via RIA. RESULTS: In Y vs O: Basal GH secreted (area under the curve) was 543.6 +/- 84.0 vs 211.5 +/- 63.0. During EO, values were 986.6 +/- 156.6 and 517.8 +/- 85.5. Both were significantly lower in the older individuals (p < .05). Oral Arg alone did not result in any increase in GH secretion at rest (310.8 +/- 73.2 vs 262.9 +/- 141.2). When Arg was coadministered during exercise, GH release was not affected in either the young or old and appeared to be blunted in the young compared to the exercise only trial in the young. CONCLUSION: Based upon these findings, we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise.
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    3D Water Chestnuts NO HYPE's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by Rodzilla View Post
    I have been doin Blast (no arginine) + a bunch of CM and BA, pumps are still solid.
    Nice.
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  9. #9
    3D Water Chestnuts NO HYPE's Avatar
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    Would Citrulline Malate and Ornithine be just as counter productive??If not than I guess it's time to leave out the Arginine pre-workout and use them + things like Icarin and Cnidium for pumps.
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    Originally Posted by WordzWorf View Post
    Would Citrulline Malate and Ornithine be just as counter productive??
    Taking a guess here, but CM is essentially arginine, so I can only assume that the results would be similar.
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    3D Water Chestnuts NO HYPE's Avatar
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    Thumbs down I'm all set with the pump... that comes naturally anyway.

    Take a look at the study that Skigazzi and I mentioned previously (scroll to the very bottom) http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/00285.2006v1.pdf.

    Now look at the differences in GH concentrations in response to exercise. The arginine/exercise group experienced significant decriments in GH (i.e. their levels were around half than that of the exercise only group). I would much rather sacrifice the pump.
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    wat dat means, kuwait? Hardnutcheck's Avatar
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    Cliff notes?
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Hardnutcheck View Post
    Cliff notes?
    You get a customized answer

    MRI Black Powder = Say hello to my little friend the exercise induced GH attenuator.
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    Originally Posted by Hardnutcheck View Post
    Cliff notes?

    1. "their levels were around half than that of the exercise only group."

    2. "I'm all set with the pump... that comes naturally anyway.."
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    Are GH levels over a short period of time, particularly during a workout, even of any relevance? The workout is not the anabolic phase...the rest and recovery is. High GH levels the day around would matter more than GH levels for a few hours during workout.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    (which aquire the capability to minimize optimal gains).
    I still disagree about this
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    What about creatine? I ask this becuase L-arg is precursor of creatine???
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    Originally Posted by Fit4OneLife View Post
    What about creatine? I ask this becuase L-arg is precursor of creatine???
    I don't believe L-Arginine is a precursor to Creatine. Keep using your creatine as you have before.
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    Originally Posted by Androgen-X View Post
    Are GH levels over a short period of time, particularly during a workout, even of any relevance? The workout is not the anabolic phase...the rest and recovery is. High GH levels the day around would matter more than GH levels for a few hours during workout.
    How did I miss this post, lol. Good point. I don't know, hopefully someone else can chime in.
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Diego Sanchez View Post
    I don't believe L-Arginine is a precursor to Creatine. Keep using your creatine as you have before.
    Creatine is Glycine + Methionine + Arginine. Just sayin'.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    Registered User aoba's Avatar
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    old topic.

    That is all.

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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    Creatine is Glycine + Methionine + Arginine. Just sayin'.
    Thanx.
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Androgen-X View Post
    Are GH levels over a short period of time, particularly during a workout, even of any relevance? The workout is not the anabolic phase...the rest and recovery is. High GH levels the day around would matter more than GH levels for a few hours during workout.
    Yes, they are. For example, GH amplitude has direct and indirect actions on lipolysis. Acute increases in GH during exercise lead to increases in post-exercise fat utilization. Not only that, but GH is synergistic with catecholamines.

    Another example... the use of AA supplementation before exercise ...
    Restoration of hormonal action and muscle protein.

    Effects of a multi-nutrient supplement on exercise performance and hormonal responses to resistance exercise.

    Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation.

    ... from this there are indications that there is an improved anabolic effect when elevated GH is in the presence of the AA's ...
    Last edited by in10city; 02-03-2008 at 01:08 PM.
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    3D Water Chestnuts NO HYPE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Androgen-X View Post
    Are GH levels over a short period of time, particularly during a workout, even of any relevance?
    Well considering the fact that resistance exercise is such a strong stimuli for GH release.... I'd say so, absolutely.



    Originally Posted by Androgen-X View Post
    The workout is not the anabolic phase...the rest and recovery is.
    1. The attenuated GH expression likely results in lower overall circulating levels of GH (in the anabolic hours).

    2. L-arginine produces peak plasma levels approximately one to two hours after oral administration
    ~

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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    loaded with antioxidants (which aquire the capability to minimize optimal gains).
    Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I still disagree about this
    Here is one example....


    Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Jan;87(1):142-9.

    Oral administration of vitamin C decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and hampers training-induced adaptations in endurance performance.

    BACKGROUND: Exercise practitioners often take vitamin C supplements because intense muscular contractile activity can result in oxidative stress, as indicated by altered muscle and blood glutathione concentrations and increases in protein, DNA, and lipid peroxidation. There is, however, considerable debate regarding the beneficial health effects of vitamin C supplementation. OBJECTIVE: This study was designed to study the effect of vitamin C on training efficiency in rats and in humans. DESIGN: The human study was double-blind and randomized. Fourteen men (27-36 y old) were trained for 8 wk. Five of the men were supplemented daily with an oral dose of 1 g vitamin C. In the animal study, 24 male Wistar rats were exercised under 2 different protocols for 3 and 6 wk. Twelve of the rats were treated with a daily dose of vitamin C (0.24 mg/cm(2) body surface area).

    RESULTS: The administration of vitamin C significantly (P = 0.014) hampered endurance capacity. The adverse effects of vitamin C may result from its capacity to reduce the exercise-induced expression of key transcription factors involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. These factors are peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor co-activator 1, nuclear respiratory factor 1, and mitochondrial transcription factor A. Vitamin C also prevented the exercise-induced expression of cytochrome C (a marker of mitochondrial content) and of the antioxidant enzymes superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase. CONCLUSION: Vitamin C supplementation decreases training efficiency because it prevents some cellular adaptations to exercise.
    ~

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    wat dat means, kuwait? Hardnutcheck's Avatar
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    Since I'm new to all this SUPP scene, I'm a bit lost. Would blackpowder be bad or good? NVM I'm extremely confused.
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    Originally Posted by Hardnutcheck View Post
    Since I'm new to all this SUPP scene, I'm a bit lost. Would blackpowder be bad or good? NVM I'm extremely confused.
    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    You get a customized answer

    MRI Black Powder = Say hello to my little friend the exercise induced GH attenuator.
    The choice is ultimately yours and is tied to your goals.
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    B.S. Kinesiology CSCS Vipersg123's Avatar
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    how close to exercise you think it would matter? 2 hours prior still fine? And what about post exercise arginine? Just curious
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Taking a guess here, but CM is essentially arginine, so I can only assume that the results would be similar.
    for realz? damn.
    Realize that anyone with an affiliation to a supplement company in their signature has ulterior motives when making recommendations. They're primarily concerned with pushing their products. Not your safety or what's best for you.
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