Russia releases proof Ukraine shot down MH17

[Mednogorsk]

How many neckbeard experts are at shock right now?

"US: No Link to Russian Gov't in Plane Downing.
The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile."


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...crash-24664577

[muscleserge]

musclesarge, lets make a bet since you are so confident in the honesty your Russian masters ...

The UN has called and unanimously voted on an international investigation.

I am willing to stand by a permaban bet against you if you are man enough to take it. I claim the investigation will show that this Russian-provided Buk did it. Do you want to claim that the investigation will show that Ukraine did it and take the bet against me?

What do you say? Are you man enough to stand up to your accusations that it was Ukraine with that bet? I am willing ...

Hell yeah, so long as it gets rid of your bs backed up by your feelings on the subject.

BTW, Putin has called for an independent investigation from the get go and didn't/doesn't point fingers until the results, unlike some other party to the argument.

I like how all you do is go around the subject and yet again fail to present anything to back your claims up, read through your own posts, notice how even when you quote, you rarely address anything quoted, and jump subjects in the blink of an eye. Sleezy to say the least. Go watch some Fox or whatever you shills do.

[muscleserge]

Lol, proof? nobody has provided proof of ****.

I'm just not going to believe the russian/RT propoganda machine. Did you not watch or read any of the RT reports? Just LOL. "Ukarine was personally targeting putins plane" lol.

OKAY.GIF

RT? I don't watch RT, srs. I am going off of the evidence presented by the Russians, since its the only evidence being presented and they aren't pointing fingers until the results of the investigation.

Putin's plane? What are you on about. I am pointing out the fact that US is baselessly blaming one side, while that side presents evidence and asks the other to do the same. You expect me to believe which version? One with ******** as evidence or the one with radar data? I'd rather stick to the side that puts their money where their mouth is.

[LukeLissen]

Hell yeah, so long as it gets rid of your bs backed up by your feelings on the subject.

BTW, Putin has called for an independent investigation from the get go and didn't/doesn't point fingers until the results, unlike some other party to the argument.

AWESOME! So do we agree:

If the conclusion of the investigation is that this Russian-supplied Buk did it, then muscleserge gets permabanned.
If the conclusion is that Ukraine did it, then Lukelissen gets permabanned.

[or the same goes if Russia or Ukraine just admits to it before the investigation is complete]

Anything 'inconclusive' will just be left at that, but it wont be.

Agreed?

[LukeLissen]

BTW, the investigation could take a while - a very long while like up to a year or even more, but hopefully its done much quicker than that.

[muscleserge]

How many neckbeard experts are at shock right now?

"US: No Link to Russian Gov't in Plane Downing.
The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile."


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...crash-24664577

LukyLuke, lets see your comment on this. Now that even your very favorite western propaganda machine admits that there is no evidence, will you finally man up and admit that you're wrong?

I guess Americans finally analyzed their intel and came up with nothing, so they change their tune, not a good sign for you Luky, dat permaban is looking like a bad idea now is it?

" The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.

But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.

Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range."

"Asked about evidence, one of the senior U.S. intelligence officials said it was conceivable that Russian paramilitary troops are operating in eastern Ukraine, but that there was no direct link from them to the missile launch."

Am I the only one LoLing hard at how the US gov't considers its own people retards to follow this BS?

So one side even admits that it uses unverified evidence.

The last part is a lie, Ukrainian news was all over their BUKs being in the area, so we have one side with unverified ******** evidence, and a liar , and the other has sat images, analysis, radar data, etc.

I can't believe some people are still arguing, unbelievable how truly biased some people are.

[muscleserge]

AWESOME! So do we agree:

If the conclusion of the investigation is that this Russian-supplied Buk did it, then muscleserge gets permabanned.
If the conclusion is that Ukraine did it, then Lukelissen gets permabanned.

[or the same goes if Russia or Ukraine just admits to it before the investigation is complete]

Anything 'inconclusive' will just be left at that, but it wont be.

Agreed?

Sure. Except that the Ukrainian BUKs are also Russian supplied, so remove that loophole and its a deal.

[LukeLissen]

Sure. Except that the Ukrainian BUKs are also Russian supplied, so remove that loophole and its a deal.

Of course, thats true, so lets clarify: I am referring to a Buk SAM TELAR which was sent into Ukraine from Russia via flatbed truck and then used to shoot down MH17 under the control of Russian military and/or operatives(regardless of Ukrainian vs Russian citizenry) ie - the forces fighting against the Ukrainian government.

and then your claim would simply be any Ukrainian SAM or air-to-air missile fired by pro-Kyiv forces.

[muscleserge]

Of course, thats true, so lets clarify: I am referring to a Buk SAM TELAR which was sent into Ukraine from Russia via flatbed truck and then used to shoot down MH17 under the control of Russian military and/or operatives(regardless of Ukrainian vs Russian citizenry) ie - the forces fighting against the Ukrainian government.

and then your claim would simply be any Ukrainian SAM or air-to-air missile fired by pro-Kyiv forces.

My claim is that it wasn't Russians or the separatists, my best guess is on Ukr, but I never claim fact.

BTW, so that you know before you get ahead, that truck vid is fake, the billboard address is for a city that's been under Ukr control since May.

If it was the separatists or the Russians, permaban for me, if it wasn't either, permaban for you.

[LukeLissen]

If it was the separatists or the Russians, permaban for me, if it wasn't either, permaban for you.

Ok so the bet is official.


Now for something that might bother you just a little bit.... Remember how many times I have tried to warn you about taking your info from Russian sources? You continue to make that same mistake:

BTW, so that you know before you get ahead, that truck vid is fake, the billboard address is for a city that's been under Ukr control since May.

That is, again as so many times before with you, incorrect.

The Russian lie that you fell for and pushed is that it was in Krasnoarmiisk, a town in Ukrainian controlled territory.

You were so wrong and so adamant yet so ignorant, I was withholding this info to prove a point to you.

The location of the video stated by the Ukrainian government has been verified. It is in Lugansk, headed away from the area of the crash and towards the Russian border. It is the same truck and trailer that was seen earlier in various places in Torez-Snizhne and was released very shortly after the crash. BTW, that auto company on the billboard is headquartered in has its headquarters in Krasnoarmiisk but it also a showroom in Lugansk.

Lugansk is the most heavily rebel controlled area, and this is the part of the border still controlled by Russian forces with no Ukrainian presence. In addition there are numerous anti-Kiev checkpoints all throughout the area.


so....


here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0




screenshot :





here is the location on google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=48...p=0&sz=17&z=17

here is the location on Yandex:
http://maps.yandex.ua/?text=lugansk&...49689756946235







camera and truck location drawn










It's not easy to see exactly how the video fits with the map, but Yandex streetview helps:










The whole layout, the poles from, the lights, the road, grass etcetera, all can be seen here. But the two houses are not visible from here.
From this position we can see the houses though:













and very importantly, some items geolocated:



(full-size image of that: http://i.imgur.com/vqZ5rqr.jpg )







likely route the truck was taking from Torez-Snizhne back to Russia:








BTW, this is the same truck and SAM that was seen coming into Ukraine that morning:




There are more pictures of it that day as well which have been geolocated.


source of all this: http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014...shot-down.html

























Not feeling too well about your bet now are you? You should not have so naively believed those Russian lies. The Russian lies have to stop.

There is of course much much more evidence than this. This is only a small part of it.

[LukeLissen]

and the same truck/SAM driving in Torez, only a few miles from the shootdown site, almost directly under it:



[BTW, that location has also been geolocated perfectly]


There is also much much more evidence, including a photo of the missile launch smoke trail that has been geolocated to a field just south of Snizhne - just southeast of Torez.

[metroins]

Pepper ur angus, Luke Lissen going in raw, hard and deep.

[LukeLissen]

Pepper ur angus, Luke Lissen going in raw, hard and deep.

reps

can I get a wat wat

[Powers]

In after LukeLissen smackdown.

The U.S. certainly needs to put forth more definitive evidence but unless it was all a planned false flag from Russia it most likely was pro-Russian separatists. They have shot down 12 planes so far from that area.

[Zedbimmer]

so it had 3 missiles before I can see that, is there a picture of it having less than 3 after? did it start off with 4?

Being at the scene has little to do with whether you did it or not or it will be back to the 80 and 90s again where people where imprisoned without real evidence.

[LukeLissen]

In after LukeLissen smackdown.

The U.S. certainly needs to put forth more definitive evidence but unless it was all a planned false flag from Russia it most likely was pro-Russian separatists. They have shot down 12 planes so far from that area.

The world's most advanced early warning satellite, a US hi-res infrared missile launch detector, was in range of the area during the shootdown.

The US and Ukraine are giving the Kremlin and their trolls all the rope they want. They are without a doubt withholding certain more specific information for that reason. So there is no rush, but actually good reason to withhold information for now.

There will be one big problem to confront though - the Russians have spent days at the crash site very deliberately tampering with the evidence. OSCE (and some journalists also) has thoroughly documented as much as they can, but even they werent at the crash scene most of the time, but only parts of the day. In particular, we have evidence of very major tampering with the cockpit section, including cutting and removing pieces of it with saws - not related to body removal. In addition, the flight recorders were in Russian government hands for four days before being turned over. However, the international investigation team will be fully aware of this.

[NumeroOnce]

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/2...6pLid%3D505510

US government comes out and says there is no Russian link to the plane crash, LukeLissen argues it was Russia anyways just because he predetermined his stance before all the facts came out.

[LukeLissen]

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/22/us-no-link-to-russian-government-in-flight-mh17-downing/20935367/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cnetscape%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D505510[/url]

US government comes out and says there is no Russian link to the plane crash, LukeLissen argues it was Russia anyways just because he predetermined his stance before all the facts came out.

Calling you out right now, Hoss:

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Are you man enough to take the same permaban bet as musclesarge?

Im not going to put up with this Russian shilling BS any longer. Either put up or shut up.

How confident are you numeroonce? Are you confident enough to take my bet?

[nutsy54]

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/2...6pLid%3D505510

US government comes out and says there is no Russian link to the plane crash....

Why did you completely distort and misrepresent what that article (and it's anonymous sources) actually said...?

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

[MediaDeit]

Oh RT, a news agency which is having many of their reporters quitting saying the kremlin is forcing them to report lies about this exact incident.

Fantastic source

[LukeLissen]

The fact that Russian state media sources are lying about the location of the video detailed above (among many many other things) should be a strong sign in which direction the investigation will be going.

[NumeroOnce]

Why did you completely distort and misrepresent what that article (and it's anonymous sources) actually said...?

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

The title of the article is "US: No link to Russian government in Flight MH17 downing" but somehow when I say...

US government comes out and says there is no Russian link to the plane crash...

I'm misrepresenting something? Why do you hate me so much, Nutsy?

Calling you out right now, Hoss:

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Are you man enough to take the same permaban bet as musclesarge?

Im not going to put up with this Russian shilling BS any longer. Either you ****ers put up or shut up.

How confident are you numeroonce? Are you confident enough to take my bet?

Lol (specifically at Hoss)... what bet?

Last year I was an Islamist according to you, now I'm a Russian shill. Perhaps next week I'll be a North Korean internet infiltrator? Keep up the amusing posts (srs)

Can you or the nut I quoted above you give me a reason that Russia would down the plane?

[mrmister1]

which is having many of their reporters quitting

I've only seen females looking for publicity

[LukeLissen]

BTW, its not just the Russian state media that is lying about the video of the Buk. I had overlooked that it was also in the government briefing that was given yesterday:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Eyxi3Kw#t=1496



starts at 25:00

Of course that has now been verifiably disproven.

Too many lies for the Russians to keep up with now.




Where are our arrogant-yet-wrong resident pro-Russian trash-talkers now? Where are you now?

Your Russian government has been caught in lies that will only multiply in exposure from here forth. Are you going to continue to go down in flames with them?

Its only going to get worse for you buds. Its only going to get worse - that I can promise. The Russian government developed a powerful propaganda lie program, but the people like myself have had enough and are now rising up against it. We will win.

[Mednogorsk]

Where are our arrogant-yet-wrong resident pro-Russian trash-talkers now? Where are you now?

Your Russian government has been caught in lies that will only multiply in exposure from here forth. Are you going to continue to go down in flames with them?

Its only going to get worse for you buds. Its only going to get worse - that I can promise. The Russian government developed a powerful propaganda lie program, but the people like myself have had enough and are now rising up against it. We will win.

In case you didn't know how the info war works, it never stops, for every picture you post "debunking" yesterday's pics, tomorrow there will be a new series of "internet investigations" this time debunking your pretty pictures, this is the real war of 21 century with millions of hamsters doing their homework in front of the monitors, feeling euphoric.

[Mednogorsk]

[nutsy54]

The title of the article is "US: No link to Russian government in Flight MH17 downing" but somehow when I say...

I'm misrepresenting something? Why do you hate me so much, Nutsy?

Anyone who bothered to read the content of the article would know the title didn't match.... So either you didn't bother to read the article, or you intentionally posted what you knew was twisted & exaggerated.

I "hate" you because your posts are constantly based on lies, exaggerations, and false claims. Why can't your position be supported with straightforward, factual information...?

The US government made no official statement, only the words of anonymous sources. There was no claim of "no Russian link", only a confirmation that they didn't know how extensive the Russian involvement was.

[Powers]

2 Ukrainian fighter jets shot down with missiles today by Pro-Russian separatists.

[Vugluskr]

We will win.

I really wish you'd answer. What is your stake in all this? You spend hours on here every day posting the same biased crap. It's very odd and even a little creepy.

Are you actually from Russia or one of former Soviet states? Have family there? I'm not trying to troll or start crap, just genuinely curious.

[muscleserge]

Sigh, LukyLuke, You keep saying Russian lies this, Russian lies that, but you fail to see with your bias just how extensive the lies of the US and Ukr are.

Answer me this, why would Ukr move their BUKs east when the rebels don't have air power? Why did their air traffic control advise the plane to deviate off course, lower altitude, and fly over the war zone? Ukrainians already did the same thing in 2001, and to this day fail to apologise or pay up to the families. Ukrainians gov't are the sleaziest of them all, you would know that if A) you lived in Ukr or near it, B) if you actually research their recent independent history. They have a long standing tradition of military incompetence and fcuk ups, but your bias makes you blind to opposing facts.

Half my family is from Ukraine, I still have relatives there, why do you think I am this adamant, I am not Russian btw. This has Ukr MO all over it, you'll see.

If you would have paid as much attention as me to the conflict you wouldn't be talking like this, the biggest liars are the Ukr media, not even Faux comes close. If you would take some time and watch their news broadcasts, some are in Russian even, if you don't know the language. The Ukrs are still denying shelling civilians, when even the western media are admitting to it. They are hiding their true casualty numbers, did you know that the Right sector mercs have been killing the army soldiers for retreating? Do you know how rampant desertion is? Do you know how the Kiev loyal fighters are treated? All that maidan "revolution" crap, what has it gotten them? More oligarchs in power, open your eyes. I am not indifferent towards Ukr, thats why I am posting all this, I don't know what your purpose is in all of this, but you are clearly biased, and it makes you blind.

-What happened ion Odessa will never be forgotten
-To this day Kiev is not investigating maidan snipers, and maidan leaders were caught, on camaera, trying to get rig of sniper rifles
- Do you find it odd that all these nationalists are being sent poorly trained and equipped east to get slaughtered, they are getting rid of them, they are trying to kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak.
- Ukr forces have been shooting ambulances, busses with soldier mothers on them, in that bus a Russian cameraman was shot and killed
- Ukr forces have been torturing innocent people.
- Did you know that Ukr is planning to set up concentration camps for eastern Ukrainians to "filter" out non-Kiev loyal people, guess who decides whos loyal and who isn't?
- Ukr still denies hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing to Russia,even after the UN confirmed it, and their media lies constantly to the people.


I can go on and on, why don't you watch some Ukr media and get back to me. People like you distract the world from the truth and actually harm Ukraine. Will you admit at least that there is compelling evidence of Ukr involvement in the incident, cause you really have to be stupid not to admit that.