"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[Ohal96]

Hi Davis,

I've been doing your Upper/Lower split for about 3-4 months now (deadlifts subbed in). My previous program was Starting Strength, where I rested "as long as I needed to" between sets. Say 3-6 minutes depending on the lift?

Right now, doing your U/L split, I still rest 3-6 minutes on the squat/bench/deadlift, and only a 2-3 min break (like mentioned in the OP) for the other compounds like rows, and 1 min for the isolations. It might be more of a mental thing, but I just don't feel very ready to go after only 2-3 mins for the squat/bench/deadlift.

Do you think it's detrimental if I were to carry on like this? I guess the answer would be "if you're making gains, go ahead". The tricky part is I'm always cutting and will be for awhile more, and weight increments take a long time to squeeze out, so my progress is always kind of foggy to me.

Thank you!

Edit: Toally forgot this question, is it also a bad thing to swap in front squats instead of lunges to combo with the deadlift?

Lunges feel so akward to me, I've tried stationary, walking, BB/DB, etc. I can get the form right, but during my last couple of reps I need to take a long pause to make sure I don't topple over.

[JJsevens]

I'm sure it's been asked but coudn't find anything, but for deadlift and good morning, would those be considered upper or lower...?? and depending on that should i be increading weight by 5 or 10lbs?

[bob2589]

I'm sure it's been asked but coudn't find anything, but for deadlift and good morning, would those be considered upper or lower...?? and depending on that should i be increading weight by 5 or 10lbs?

Lower for both I believe. So increase by 10 when the weight goes up.

[davisj3537]

Just checking in to give a firm "kudos" on the reset protocol. Back on Friday 1/13/17 and Tuesday 1/24/17 (short deload in between) I attempted 3x9 on 195LB RDLs and failed both times, due to grip failure, but also the hams were having trouble keeping up.

After resetting back to 175LBS, working my way back up, I hit 3x9 on 3/10, and today hit 3x8 with 205LBS. So definite progress there. Grip strength seemed solid, no hint that it was about to give out, and hams were fine, so I'm expecting to get my 3x9 next week and then up it to 215LBS week after that.

Glad to hear it brother. You'll be at 225 before you know it.

Hi Davis,

I've been doing your Upper/Lower split for about 3-4 months now (deadlifts subbed in). My previous program was Starting Strength, where I rested "as long as I needed to" between sets. Say 3-6 minutes depending on the lift?

Right now, doing your U/L split, I still rest 3-6 minutes on the squat/bench/deadlift, and only a 2-3 min break (like mentioned in the OP) for the other compounds like rows, and 1 min for the isolations. It might be more of a mental thing, but I just don't feel very ready to go after only 2-3 mins for the squat/bench/deadlift.

Do you think it's detrimental if I were to carry on like this? I guess the answer would be "if you're making gains, go ahead". The tricky part is I'm always cutting and will be for awhile more, and weight increments take a long time to squeeze out, so my progress is always kind of foggy to me.

Thank you!

Edit: Toally forgot this question, is it also a bad thing to swap in front squats instead of lunges to combo with the deadlift?

Lunges feel so akward to me, I've tried stationary, walking, BB/DB, etc. I can get the form right, but during my last couple of reps I need to take a long pause to make sure I don't topple over.

Nothing wrong with resting longer. If you feel 4-5 minutes or whatever is better for you then do that instead. It was just a guideline.

I'd rather see something with more hams paired with the DL. back squats would be better than fronts for sure. Low bar is great. maybe hip thrusts...fukking awesome exercise that works the entire lower body and abs.

[kemaldero]

Hi i have started your program and liked it.Should I add side raises to U/L program cuz I think side delts could be lacking.And what is the best substitution for pendlay rows and bent over row(I love chest supported t bar row if I could add it instead of one of them that would be great)Thanks man.

[davisj3537]

Hi i have started your program and liked it.Should I add side raises to U/L program cuz I think side delts could be lacking.And what is the best substitution for pendlay rows and bent over row(I love chest supported t bar row if I could add it instead of one of them that would be great)Thanks man.

T bar is an awesome sub for pendlay. Any row to the stomach is a sub for BOR.

I wouldn't add side raises, but you do what you feel you need to.

[kemaldero]

T bar is an awesome sub for pendlay. Any row to the stomach is a sub for BOR.

I wouldn't add side raises, but you do what you feel you need to.

but I am doing chest supported t bars and doing eccentric properly which is not in pendlay is it okay? And I would be very happy if you give specific subs for BOR thx.

[davisj3537]

but I am doing chest supported t bars and doing eccentric properly which is not in pendlay is it okay?

I already answered that

And I would be very happy if you give specific subs for BOR thx.

I didn't give you any specific subs because I assumed you'd already read the the substitutions on the first page before asking me questions...as a matter of fact all 3 questions you asked were answered on the first page (before I edited it just a few minutes ago.)

[Millz12323]

Hey guys.

Been on fierce 5 upper lower for a few weeks which calls for pendlay rows.

Looking for some feedback on my form. Am I parallel enough? How is the bar path? Am I using my lats too much? Do I have the correct elbow angle? Am I using too much English? Any feedback is appreciated.


https://youtu.be/-AJDGoi9FbI

That's 135. Which is basically the weight I have to use because the gym I regularly go to doesn't have bumper plates.

I typically would bring the bar down faster but it's my friends basement and I was concerned about his floors.

[dency45]

wow full HD vid at 60fps. anyway, the elbow and wrist should be in a straight line. imagine doing bench press while in that form.

[Millz12323]

wow full HD vid at 60fps. anyway, the elbow and wrist should be in a straight line. imagine doing bench press while in that form.

Cell phone cameras are great these days

If I understand correctly... My forearm angle is to make a 90 degree angle with the ground? Is that how I would bring my wrist and elbow in line or??..

[davisj3537]

Cell phone cameras are great these days

If I understand correctly... My forearm angle is to make a 90 degree angle with the ground? Is that how I would bring my wrist and elbow in line or??..

It looks pretty good man. Your elbows are at roughly at 45 degree angle from the torso and your back is straight because you're using your hips correctly. That's all the hard stuff and you're doing it right.

The only part you're messing up in the bar path and that is why your forearms aren't straight up and down at the top of the lift. If the bar was touching lower on your torso (without changing your elbow 45 degree flare) then your forearm would be straight. This will take a little practice to lower the touch point and not hit your knees with the bar, but you'll figure it.

[Millz12323]

It looks pretty good man. Your elbows are at roughly at 45 degree angle from the torso and your back is straight because you're using your hips correctly. That's all the hard stuff and you're doing it right.

The only part you're messing up in the bar path and that is why your forearms aren't straight up and down at the top of the lift. If the bar was touching lower on your torso (without changing your elbow 45 degree flare) then your forearm would be straight. This will take a little practice to lower the touch point and not hit your knees with the bar, but you'll figure it.

Thanks for the feedback Davis. I think what I'm trying to do is to get the bar to touch higher and have closer to a 90 degree torso elbow angle (is this wrong?) but my upper back doesn't have enough strength so my lats take over and I end up with a 45 degree elbow to torso angle.

What you're suggesting though is the 45 degree angle is fine. I think if I kinda like sat back more into my hips then my knees wouldn't be in the way and I could touch a little lower and have the straight forearms but is this what I'm really after or should I work on getting closer to 90 degree torso/elbow angle to recruit the upper back more?

[davisj3537]

Thanks for the feedback Davis. I think what I'm trying to do is to get the bar to touch higher and have closer to a 90 degree torso elbow angle (is this wrong?) but my upper back doesn't have enough strength so my lats take over and I end up with a 45 degree elbow to torso angle.

What you're suggesting though is the 45 degree angle is fine. I think if I kinda like sat back more into my hips then my knees wouldn't be in the way and I could touch a little lower and have the straight forearms but is this what I'm really after or should I work on getting closer to 90 degree torso/elbow angle to recruit the upper back more?

If you kept the elbows flared all the way out to 90 then you'd be impinging the shoulder on every rep. I wish this wasn't the case, but you really don't want to do that. FWIW I have to think about pushing my elbows out during the lift so that they stay straight. You don't actually want to push them out, but that's the mental cue that I use.

[maxxycoone]

hi davis, i have been following the upper lower intermediate for 5 months now. i have made some progress, but as of lately all my lifts are becoming heavy and in return i am not using proper form. i reduced the weights and worked my way back up, but the same thing has happening. i have actually reduced the weights twice to a weight i can use perfect strict form, and worked my way back up, but every time it always gets too heavy and my form slacks out. what is happening now, i have no clue? im not a beginner but i just recently started consistently going to gym again. all isolation exercises are fine, just exercises like squats, rows, pulldowns, bench.
thanks man, i hope u reply. dont know wtf is going on

[Dani163]

I'm currently on a slow bulk, and I'm really interested into lifting heavier weights especially on the compound exercises like squats, deadlift, OH, rows. However, I'm wondering how effective this program is if you don't have that many exercises for each muscle group?

[JJsevens]

I'm just over a month in and am knees are starting to get sore the day after, I think it maybe because of leg extensions. What else could i do instead of leg extensions?

[davisj3537]

hi davis, i have been following the upper lower intermediate for 5 months now. i have made some progress, but as of lately all my lifts are becoming heavy and in return i am not using proper form. i reduced the weights and worked my way back up, but the same thing has happening. i have actually reduced the weights twice to a weight i can use perfect strict form, and worked my way back up, but every time it always gets too heavy and my form slacks out. what is happening now, i have no clue? im not a beginner but i just recently started consistently going to gym again. all isolation exercises are fine, just exercises like squats, rows, pulldowns, bench.
thanks man, i hope u reply. dont know wtf is going on

Well I would suggest doing what you've already done. It's normal that form begins to degrade when the weights gets really heavy, but after some time practicing correct form this should be greatly improved and should not be affecting your workouts. The other thing I would suggest is using a program with higher reps for the exercises you're struggling with, but since you're struggling with exercises in the 8-10 rep range (rows, pulldowns..etc.) it tells me that is unlikely to fix the problem as well.

I hate to say it, but I think this comes down to your mental/physical toughness to maintain form integrity. Look at the elite powerlifters and you'll see that some of them maintain almost perfect form when lifting at or above their 1 rep max. If they can accomplish that, then you can accomplish good form for sets of 5. It's just going to take more work and possibly some targeted accessory lifts.

I'd suggest posting form videos of the lifts you're struggling with and we'll try to get you some better cues to use to keep good form.

I'm just over a month in and am knees are starting to get sore the day after, I think it maybe because of leg extensions. What else could i do instead of leg extensions?

If they don't feel right then drop them. They don't agree with some people. I assume you were already doing them with light weight nice and slow. The first thing I'd do is simply remove the extensions for a few weeks and see if the soreness in your knees goes away. If it does then we'll try to replace it, but we need to isolate the problem first.

If that does in fact make things better then I'd try subbing in step ups, walking lunges, sissy squats and see if any of them pass the same test. Start light.

[davisj3537]

I'm currently on a slow bulk, and I'm really interested into lifting heavier weights especially on the compound exercises like squats, deadlift, OH, rows. However, I'm wondering how effective this program is if you don't have that many exercises for each muscle group?

I benched a national record at my last meet and at the time I was doing 6 chest exercises a week. The UL PPL has you doing 5 chest exercises a week. Quality is a sh*tload more important than quantity brother.

If you want to do a bunch of fluffy BS per muscle group and spend 2+ hours in the gym then this program isn't for you mate. This is for people who are willing to put 100% into 6 lifts a day and forget all the pump and isolation BS.

[Naeya1mj]

Hey Davis. Starting your Upper Lower Intermediate routine today. I ran through a practice run last week and I liked it. I have been fairly consistent in the gym for the last 4-5 years with a bro split and looking forward to trying something new. My max ranges are Bench 175 lbs, OHP 85lbs, Squat 215 lbs, Dead lift 245 lbs, and bent over rows 175 lbs. I am going to start at 80%-85% of these numbers to start.

My main goal is to better proportion my body (mainly leg and shoulder size) , increase strength and to drop 8-10 lbs of midsection weight over the course of the next 2-3 months. My current weight is 192 lbs at 5'11". So i will be going on a slight calorie deficiency with the idea of losing 1lb a week of body fat.

Do you see these goals as being realistic on this program in terms of cutting? I was thinking of adding HIIT cardio 2-3 days a week, one being on rest day mid week.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[davisj3537]

Hey Davis. Starting your Upper Lower Intermediate routine today. I ran through a practice run last week and I liked it. I have been fairly consistent in the gym for the last 4-5 years with a bro split and looking forward to trying something new. My max ranges are Bench 175 lbs, OHP 85lbs, Squat 215 lbs, Dead lift 245 lbs, and bent over rows 175 lbs. I am going to start at 80%-85% of these numbers to start.

My main goal is to better proportion my body (mainly leg and shoulder size) , increase strength and to drop 8-10 lbs of midsection weight over the course of the next 2-3 months. My current weight is 192 lbs at 5'11". So i will be going on a slight calorie deficiency with the idea of losing 1lb a week of body fat.

Do you see these goals as being realistic on this program in terms of cutting? I was thinking of adding HIIT cardio 2-3 days a week, one being on rest day mid week.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

The rate of weight loss seems very reasonable, but I wouldn't count on increasing leg or shoulder size while losing weight. You may increase strength a little, but don't count on a lot of that either. Building muscle and strength happens the fastest when you're gaining weight, not losing it.

After you've lost the weight then stay on the program for another 3 months or so and see how the bulking goes for you.

[Naeya1mj]

Thanks for the reply man. I'm definitely excited to try this routine on a bulk after I drop the weight. I wish I would have found this earlier.

With the routine on a cut, what should I be expecting in weight increase per exercise. I know typically it would increase by 5 lbs for upper or 10 lbs for lower. I have added super sets of exercises but making sure to do the bigger compound in the beginning.

[Dani163]

I benched a national record at my last meet and at the time I was doing 6 chest exercises a week. The UL PPL has you doing 5 chest exercises a week. Quality is a sh*tload more important than quantity brother.

If you want to do a bunch of fluffy BS per muscle group and spend 2+ hours in the gym then this program isn't for you mate. This is for people who are willing to put 100% into 6 lifts a day and forget all the pump and isolation BS.

You are right I don't want to spend too much time in the gym when I'm there, but will this novice workout routine give me size on my muscles?

I have some other questions as well, I started with the novice workout routine today and I assumed I was a novice according to the exrx strength chart. Will 3 workouts a week be enough? Is it possible to add a separate day during the weekend (sat/sun) to train only abs, traps, arms? Since it doesnt get so much focus on this workout routine, e.g shrugs/hammer curls/close grip bench?

Also, if I were to do workout B on Wednesday but I get sick, and next day I'm healthy, do I train on Thursday/sunday/tuesday? How do you compensate a missed workout day?

Lastly I would also like to point out that crossed arms front squat is hurting my shoulder pretty badly, today I tried to do the crossed arms front squat with 60kgs but my delts didn't like that exercise. So I switched it out to the Barbell high bar squat exercise, and I continued with the RDL as usual. Is this good? And will I be able to recover until Wednesday? Where ill be doing 3x5 squats.

Thanks

[Farley1324]

You are right I don't want to spend too much time in the gym when I'm there, but will this novice workout routine give me size on my muscles?

I have some other questions as well, I started with the novice workout routine today and I assumed I was a novice according to the exrx strength chart. Will 3 workouts a week be enough? Is it possible to add a separate day during the weekend (sat/sun) to train only abs, traps, arms? Since it doesnt get so much focus on this workout routine, e.g shrugs/hammer curls/close grip bench?

Also, if I were to do workout B on Wednesday but I get sick, and next day I'm healthy, do I train on Thursday/sunday/tuesday? How do you compensate a missed workout day?

Lastly I would also like to point out that crossed arms front squat is hurting my shoulder pretty badly, today I tried to do the crossed arms front squat with 60kgs but my delts didn't like that exercise. So I switched it out to the Barbell high bar squat exercise, and I continued with the RDL as usual. Is this good? And will I be able to recover until Wednesday? Where ill be doing 3x5 squats.

Thanks

Follow the routine as it is.

3 full body days is usually optimal for a novice.

Why not a clean grip front squat, the way the lift is really intended?

[davisj3537]

Thanks for the reply man. I'm definitely excited to try this routine on a bulk after I drop the weight. I wish I would have found this earlier.

With the routine on a cut, what should I be expecting in weight increase per exercise. I know typically it would increase by 5 lbs for upper or 10 lbs for lower. I have added super sets of exercises but making sure to do the bigger compound in the beginning.

Just follow the program and see what happens. Reduce weight when failing.

You are right I don't want to spend too much time in the gym when I'm there, but will this novice workout routine give me size on my muscles?

I have some other questions as well, I started with the novice workout routine today and I assumed I was a novice according to the exrx strength chart. Will 3 workouts a week be enough? Is it possible to add a separate day during the weekend (sat/sun) to train only abs, traps, arms? Since it doesnt get so much focus on this workout routine, e.g shrugs/hammer curls/close grip bench?

Also, if I were to do workout B on Wednesday but I get sick, and next day I'm healthy, do I train on Thursday/sunday/tuesday? How do you compensate a missed workout day?

Lastly I would also like to point out that crossed arms front squat is hurting my shoulder pretty badly, today I tried to do the crossed arms front squat with 60kgs but my delts didn't like that exercise. So I switched it out to the Barbell high bar squat exercise, and I continued with the RDL as usual. Is this good? And will I be able to recover until Wednesday? Where ill be doing 3x5 squats.

Thanks

1. Read this thread. The whole thing. Just tons of great advice. https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1487226721

2. Read the FAQ please. All your questions are answered there in some form or fashion.

3. Don't add anything. If you want to add a fourth day then go ahead and make friends with a shoulder surgeon now and please don't tell anyone that you're doing Fierce 5 because you're not. Literally any changes you make are reducing the effectiveness of the program. Let that sink in.

4. Bro if if wasn't good then it wouldn't be a sticky on the largest bodybuilding forum in the world.

[MattJ45]

Hi, quick question ref the weight. I'm just starting the novice routine, should I pick a weight that relatively comfortably allows me to hit the require reps, or should I be failing most sets?

For e.g., squats are set at 3 sets x 5 reps. If I pick a weight that will allow me to hit 5 reps in all 3 sets, then realistically in set 1, at that weight I could probably do a couple more than 5 reps if I wanted to. Or should I pick a weight that in set 1 is tough to get to 5, so probably by set 3 I fail?

I know someone will probably say I'm overthinking it, just lift! But I'm interested what others think/do.

[TnTNZ]

Pick a weight you think you can get all 3 sets... then use 85% of that. The weight gets plenty heavy plenty quick. You should not be struggling on this for about 3-4 weeks, and you most certainly should not be failing sets. That time you should be using to get form and movement patterns locked in.

[Mertcann85]

I have a question about which I have serious doubts, since it will either sound super chaotic and stupid; or a practical way for some changes about my body that I have been observing from the day of Fierce 5 Novice(~1 years ago) till today.

Ok, so there are millions of threads about hypertrophy vs strength regime. And davis emphasized that this program is based on strength since we all know thanks to him that for getting bigger, we need to be stronger. Another input is that, we need to gain weight for numbers to be kept increasing hence gains coming along.

And the final input is that, during bulking phase; what you eat(meanwhile lifting) will result how you seem.


This was an amateur, dummy level summary from my perspective, for the progress we dream about our bodies.

Now my question is,

If I started to observe that, whenever I bulk I start having love handles that can be observed easily around %x bf; and if any diet must be adjusted to our daily lives since we all have jobs and things to do; may alternating between two workout routines be beneficial to prevent this "love-handle" issue instead of trying to solve it with nutrition? It is written million times that not gaining fat is almost impossible during bulking phase, however having THIS spesific regional fats around belly seems and sounds weird to me since it is like every single fat molecule is stored at my love-handles.


I mean another trick for showing my love handles smaller can be increasing my shoulder size or lats If I am not wrong; so if I keep observing the same thing during every single gaining weight phase after a certain bf or bw number and cannot be more military disciplined about my diet because of daily life conditions; is this a relevant alternative to have transitions between two workout routines? To say, 1 to 2 months Fierce Upper/Lower, next month a pure hypertrophy program that main focus is shoulders and/or lats and then again back to Fierce 5 Uppler/Lower -like a hybrid-, (The timing is just an example, please ignore the "month")

Because what we know is, this Fierce 5 Upper/Lower can be applied for the rest of our lives as it is written.And it is super sensitive in terms of muscular imbalances. Hence, quite probably; this idea would lead muscular imbalances too.

However, a straight logic including my own bit of ignorance indicates that; if I am not able to manage to have a more disiplined diet(which at least for now seems impossible), I will be having the same observations and issues, as a deadlock. (More detailed example: I have to eat whatever there is during lunch time at the company, or being at home around 23:30 and just eating whatever I find)Neverending loop for bulking/cutting without a single improvement, or tiny improvements that I presume would not be a solution for the love handles during gaining weight.

So probably, this will sound like a "lazy excuse" for not having a solid diet and which is at the end of the chart, is my very own fault.

But I guess after jumping around different threads and topics on the forums, I guess I am kinda confused and this may be absolutely crap. However, curiosity...

So just wanted to ask this.

Thank you.

P.S: (At the end of the road, Klokov's body style is the main target)

[MattJ45]

Pick a weight you think you can get all 3 sets... then use 85% of that. The weight gets plenty heavy plenty quick. You should not be struggling on this for about 3-4 weeks, and you most certainly should not be failing sets. That time you should be using to get form and movement patterns locked in.

OK thank you. Ref the movement patterns etc, I think (or at least I'm hoping!) I'm fairly solid on those - I've been doing these exercises for the past year or so, just not been structured enough in workouts/progressing with the weight which is what had led me to Fierce 5

[TnTNZ]

So probably, this will sound like a "lazy excuse" for not having a solid diet and which is at the end of the chart, is my very own fault.

But I guess after jumping around different threads and topics on the forums, I guess I am kinda confused and this may be absolutely crap. However, curiosity...

You're not confused. You know the answer. You're just looking for an easy fix. There isn't one. If you want to lose belly fat, you need to be tighter on your diet. It's a simple answer. It's just not an easy one. You can throw some steady state cardio in to assist, but it's easier to not put the calories in, rather than burn them off.

OK thank you. Ref the movement patterns etc, I think (or at least I'm hoping!) I'm fairly solid on those - I've been doing these exercises for the past year or so, just not been structured enough in workouts/progressing with the weight which is what had led me to Fierce 5

Cool, well still stick to that start point. Follow the progression scheme, and use the reset protocol when needed. Everything will work.