"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[francicampione]

Can the novice program be run every other day if progression still happens and the body is responding well?

It would still allow for 48 hours at least for the muscles to recover but slightly more volume and possibly faster progressions on the medium-term.

[Spanishdream]

Can the novice program be run every other day if progression still happens and the body is responding well?

It would still allow for 48 hours at least for the muscles to recover but slightly more volume and possibly faster progressions on the medium-term.

No reason to add additional volume. If you start light and work up as the program suggests, you won't find the volume low. I somewhat felt the routine was lacking but trust me when I say when you start to max out with 5 reps, you won't even want to spell the word volume. The routine's progression is very fast.

[TAWS6]

Just follow the progression. 4-6 months on the 3 day novice, 2-3 years on the intermediate upper lower, after that switch to the ULPPL. That’s basically what I did. After that specialize or retire.

[67Vert]

IMO, this thread should have been stickied instead of just the Novice Routine

[MyEgoProblem]

Can the novice program be run every other day if progression still happens and the body is responding well?

It would still allow for 48 hours at least for the muscles to recover but slightly more volume and possibly faster progressions on the medium-term.

Yes.
Its fine to run it 1on1off eod

Davis was fine with this too.

Some people actually NEED the extra volume.
L

[TAWS6]

It probably doesn’t matter (at all) lol …but from what I remember he wasn’t really a fan of full body after like 4 months. Found this in the programming balance thread.

IF full body isn't providing results anymore and you feel volume is the issue then you should really be moving to an upper/lower. I don't remember what your lifts are, but I hope they are at or very close to 315/225/405 to warrant this change..

[Vyprath]

Been running the full body for almost 4 months now. Lifts are below, starting to really dislike the full body routine wanting to move to the upper lower hoping i will also make more muscle gains with the bit more volume and accessory work

Squats - 95kg
Bench - 80kg
OHP - 50kg

[Camarija]

Been running the full body for almost 4 months now. Lifts are below, starting to really dislike the full body routine wanting to move to the upper lower hoping i will also make more muscle gains with the bit more volume and accessory work

Squats - 95kg
Bench - 80kg
OHP - 50kg

Sounds fair enough if you weigh less than 80 kilos.

If you're at a point where you don't have defined abs, I'd recommend staying on the novice program while you cut weight until you do. For you that will probably be somewhere around 73 kilos.

At that point it would be a good time to switch to the Upper Lower and try gaining weight slowly.

Good luck!

[naser224u]

Substitutions, Warmups and Stretching

Acceptable Substitutions/Interchangeable Exercises
Reverse Flies-Face pulls

Hi @davisj3537, thank you for the detailed post. I will be starting with your novice routine. Just a quick question on the substitutions mentioned for reverse flies/face-pulls, can I use pec deck reverse fly machine instead of traditional reverse flies?

Apologies if this was already answered but the thread history and engagement is quite huge.

[Camarija]

Hi @davisj3537, thank you for the detailed post. I will be starting with your novice routine. Just a quick question on the substitutions mentioned for reverse flies/face-pulls, can I use pec deck reverse fly machine instead of traditional reverse flies?

Apologies if this was already answered but the thread history and engagement is quite huge.

You'll miss out on shoulder health benefits of external rotation if you don't do face pulls, but reverse pec dec is a fine substituion if you want to gocus on growing rear delts efficiently

[naser224u]

You'll miss out on shoulder health benefits of external rotation if you don't do face pulls, but reverse pec dec is a fine substituion if you want to gocus on growing rear delts efficiently

Thank you @Camarija, I will put efforts to learn face pulls but glad that I could sub it with pec dec flies in the mean time as I have been doing that quite well.

[Voyager92]

Is there any benefit in doing Flies instead of bench press on the Upper B day? Honestly, I don't like Flies (I'm doing cable crossovers.) As the weight increases I feel myself pulled back. I have to lean forward to compensate ... I can't imagine that this is a good thing. I'd be glad for insights on why they might feel awkward.

I'd like to swap it for Bench unless there is a balance issue or something else is messed up. I remember Davis having said that the Flies are there to give the shoulder a little bit less of a beating. So, is it all right to do a second Bench on Upper B instead of Flies?

I haven't posted here for a while, what's with all the famous Indian astrologer spam?

[TAWS6]

It’s fine. Fly exercises can be useful when you’re trying to shorten the workouts since the load will be much less than a press. Also for people who have poor tricep capacity after pressing. I like an incline press, decline press but that’s just me. I wouldn’t pair OHP with incline since the angle is so close.

[Voyager92]

Thanks, I'll do flat bench then, as on Upper A, followed by a Landmine Press. I've also swapped out Front Squats for Squats because of mobility problems and my Squat has gone up since. I hope the same for bench.

[IntelExchange]

foken love these programs, in the beginning I was running the bro split and wasnt really growing, didnt track progress or anything. I only had a few growth spurs when the holidays came and I was able to rest / eat.
After like 5 years break for gym I started again and I wanted to have a more methodical approach, a miscer recommended this and for the past 7 months I have been doing the The Intermediate Upper/Lower
I have reached the lifts that I remember having before and now I am actively increasing in each lift.
I have however added a few minor modifications to suit my needs to say so, I also practice armwrestling

Chest - back
incline dbpress x3sets + "superset" light band external extension
dips x3sets
close grip pulldown x3sets (with something similar to fat gripz) + superset LU raises ( basically shoulder fly but all the way to the top, I found that this helps a lot my OHP, and I also want to work on my side delts as much as possible )
bb rows x3
reverse db fly x3 + superset triceps extensions

legs
bb squat x3
weighted back extensions x3
leg press x3
leg curls x3
seated calf raises x3 + superset cable crunch

armwrestling specific exercises - pronation, wrist abduction, wrist flextion, heavy hammer curls...stufff like that

shoulders + back
OHP x3 + "superset" light band external extension
heavy one hand db lateral raise x3
weighted chin up x3
pendlay row x3
cable face pull x3 + superset JM press ( close grip 10 reps, medium grip 10 reps, wide grip 10 reps, this transfers so well to all push lifts, triceps never give out now )

legs
front squat x3
romanian deadlift x3
leg extension x3
standing calf raise x3 + superset ab cable crossover


I would highly recommend everyone to incorporate JM press in their workouts.


Although this is great, like the rest periods between muscle groups and everything is great, I feel like I am hitting legs a little bit too much, is there any way to transfer some of that volume to the shoulders or chest ?

[ratsncatsftw]

Why are the bicep/Tricep and the core/calves only 2 sets instead of 3?

[TAWS6]

Why are the bicep/Tricep and the core/calves only 2 sets instead of 3?

Because the novice routine utilizes the least amount of volume that allows you to grow. That way you can later expand at the intermediate level and beyond.

[MyEgoProblem]

Why are the bicep/Tricep and the core/calves only 2 sets instead of 3?

Wh do you think it should be 3 working sets and not 2?
When That stuff is already hit hard with every thing else.

Davis only really put arms in appease the people who will do a load of it regardless, so he put a bit in to keep them happy.

Won't matter if you do 3 tho. Will likely not matter as you will prob just warm up less.

[Voyager92]

I'm going for a deload and taking a week off. Should I reset any of the lifts or just pick up where I left off?

[radrd]

I'm going for a deload and taking a week off. Should I reset any of the lifts or just pick up where I left off?

You should be able to pick up any program right where you left off if you only take a week off.

[ratsncatsftw]

Are reverse hyperextentions an acceptable sub for leg curls?

[marcosruben833]

Hi Davis!
I started gym 1 year ago and from the first time I was following an Upper-lower, I put on some muscle but my numbers are very low:

Bench: 50 kg
OHP: 48 kg
Squat: 50 kg
Rdl: 55 kg

Male /80 kg/ 39 yo

I don't care about the weight at all
Do you think I will mantain the muscle I gained if I follow these programs. I really wanted to 1 year ago, but the word "strength" and the numbers everywhere said me this was not the way, because on YT I'm watching a lot of people who claim that hypertrophy training must become independent again from strength training and that makes people confuse.

I'll follow the one for novices and Maybe I will add 1 set to arm exercises and lateral raises (I don't want to lose the look that "I lift") greetings from Argentina, and till next!!

[Camarija]

Are reverse hyperextentions an acceptable sub for leg curls?

Not really.

Reverse Hyperextensions would be a hip hinge movement, so you could load them up heavy to replace romanian deadlifts.

Leg curls are knee flexion, which is an important movement because part of the hamstrings only connect at the knee joint, not the hip joint. So you're going to want to do some sort of knee flexion.

Any type of leg curl would work. Alternatively, you could do something like glute ham raises. Look up nordic glute ham raises if you're very limited on equipment.

[ratsncatsftw]

Not really.

Reverse Hyperextensions would be a hip hinge movement, so you could load them up heavy to replace romanian deadlifts.

Leg curls are knee flexion, which is an important movement because part of the hamstrings only connect at the knee joint, not the hip joint. So you're going to want to do some sort of knee flexion.

Any type of leg curl would work. Alternatively, you could do something like glute ham raises. Look up nordic glute ham raises if you're very limited on equipment.

Thanks! Also, do I have to do barbell squats or can I sub them for Bulgarian split squats? I understand the progression would be different but my back just doesn’t seem to agree with back squats and front squats are painful on my delts.

[Camarija]

Thanks! Also, do I have to do barbell squats or can I sub them for Bulgarian split squats? I understand the progression would be different but my back just doesn’t seem to agree with back squats and front squats are painful on my delts.

You're free to do whatever you want, but Bulgarian Split Squats are not the same as a Squat.

I highly recommend you stick with it until you hit 1.5x body weight for reps of at least 5

It's an important fundamental movement you need to learn to engage your entire body

Chances are your form needs work

However, here are alternatives if you just don't want to learn the critically important building blocks.

If you can find a Hack Squat machine, that would be ideal and it would probably be better than squats for quad development anyway.


Alternatively a pendulum squat would be even better, but they're rare to find a gym. If your gym has this, use this.


Or front squatting on a power squat machine.


Or a belt squat would be ok as well, it's a bit more hip dominant though, so would recommend putting some plates under your heels to make it a bit more quad dominant.

[ratsncatsftw]

[QUOTE=Camarija;1680416083]You're free to do whatever you want, but Bulgarian Split Squats are not the same as a Squat.

I highly recommend you stick with it until you hit 1.5x body weight for reps of at least 5

It's an important fundamental movement you need to learn to engage your entire body

Chances are your form needs work

However, here are alternatives if you just don't want to learn the critically important building blocks.

If you can find a Hack Squat machine, that would be ideal and it would probably be better than squats for quad development anyway.

Alternatively a pendulum squat would be even better, but they're rare to find a gym. If your gym has this, use this.


Or front squatting on a power squat machine.

Or a belt squat would be ok as well, it's a bit more hip dominant though, so would recommend putting some plates under your heels to make it a bit more quad dominant.

Okay, thank you very much for the advice. I think I’ll drop the weight and work on form. Last time I failed on back squats I was at 185lb for 5 reps. My body weight is currently 142lb.

[Michiganian]

Some questions (hope this isn't too long):

Background: 72 year old male who had been working out five times/week since 2005, mostly on machines, with the following splits:
Monday and Friday: HIIT cardio
Tuesday: Chest, Triceps, and Core (abs, obliques)
Wednesday: Legs
Thursday: Shoulders, Back, and Biceps

Covid-19 killed that. Went to restart back in October. Long story short: Now have a home gym, been doing random workouts since November, decided to do Fierce 5. Adopted it last week, with "approved" substitutions. (Mainly, I wanted to retain DLs.) Here's my Program:

Workout A (weight/resistance x reps x sets):

Squat: 80x5x3
Bench: 100x5x3
Kroc Row: 55x8x3
Reverse Fly (cable): 22.5x8x3
Calf Raise/Tricep Push-Down: 95x10x2 and 60x10x2 Supersets

I do the Kroc Rows wide, holding the DB like a barbell, rather than a hammer.

Workout B (weight/resistance x reps x sets):

Seated DB Press: 30x5x3
Lat Pull-Down: 75x8x3
Deadlift: 125x5x3
Leg Curl: 12.5x8x3
Kneeling Cable Ab Crunch/Bicep Curl: 62.5x10x2 and 65x10x2 Supersets

I've ab straps, so I'll be alternating Kneeling Cable Ab Crunches and Hanging Knee Raise Crunch every-other-session.

Note: I had been DL'ing 185 lbs. I reset because I felt I needed to work on my form and F5 has more sets.

Here are the three four questions:

1. Acceptable to alternate Chest Flies (cable) with Benches? Useful?

2. Would it make sense to alternate flat, incline, and decline Benches--either Set-to-Set within one Workout or Workout-to-Workout?

3. I'd like to add more core and legs. Thinking of adding Wood Chops to Workout A, which has no core-specific work, and Hip Abduction/Adduction to Workout B, which has no leg-specific work. Advisable?

4. Progression: Typically I've raised the weight/resistance when I'm able to do all reps in all sets, for a given motion, in good form with full range-of-motion. But, I've since read that may lead to strength imbalances. So should I not raise anything in either Workout A or Workout B until I'm able to do all reps in all sets for a given Workout?

[ratsncatsftw]

Would it be a bad idea to do calisthenics training on rest days? I want to dive into some calisthenics progressions and try to learn some skills but I don’t want it to affect my weightlifting recovery.

Alternatively, could I swap out bench for push up progressions and pendlay rows for inverted row progressions?

Are either of these ideas viable?

[TAWS6]

Recently started running a hybrid of the 5-day plan with 5/3/1 progression for the main lifts. For anyone interested the ramped sets help shorten the length of the workouts especially for lower days.

[tommy4life]

Would it be a bad idea to do calisthenics training on rest days? I want to dive into some calisthenics progressions and try to learn some skills but I don’t want it to affect my weightlifting recovery.

Alternatively, could I swap out bench for push up progressions and pendlay rows for inverted row progressions?

Are either of these ideas viable?

Some questions (hope this isn't too long):

Background: 72 year old male who had been working out five times/week since 2005, mostly on machines, with the following splits:
Monday and Friday: HIIT cardio
Tuesday: Chest, Triceps, and Core (abs, obliques)
Wednesday: Legs
Thursday: Shoulders, Back, and Biceps

Covid-19 killed that. Went to restart back in October. Long story short: Now have a home gym, been doing random workouts since November, decided to do Fierce 5. Adopted it last week, with "approved" substitutions. (Mainly, I wanted to retain DLs.) Here's my Program:

Workout A (weight/resistance x reps x sets):

Squat: 80x5x3
Bench: 100x5x3
Kroc Row: 55x8x3
Reverse Fly (cable): 22.5x8x3
Calf Raise/Tricep Push-Down: 95x10x2 and 60x10x2 Supersets

I do the Kroc Rows wide, holding the DB like a barbell, rather than a hammer.

Workout B (weight/resistance x reps x sets):

Seated DB Press: 30x5x3
Lat Pull-Down: 75x8x3
Deadlift: 125x5x3
Leg Curl: 12.5x8x3
Kneeling Cable Ab Crunch/Bicep Curl: 62.5x10x2 and 65x10x2 Supersets

I've ab straps, so I'll be alternating Kneeling Cable Ab Crunches and Hanging Knee Raise Crunch every-other-session.

Note: I had been DL'ing 185 lbs. I reset because I felt I needed to work on my form and F5 has more sets.

Here are the three four questions:

1. Acceptable to alternate Chest Flies (cable) with Benches? Useful?

2. Would it make sense to alternate flat, incline, and decline Benches--either Set-to-Set within one Workout or Workout-to-Workout?

3. I'd like to add more core and legs. Thinking of adding Wood Chops to Workout A, which has no core-specific work, and Hip Abduction/Adduction to Workout B, which has no leg-specific work. Advisable?

4. Progression: Typically I've raised the weight/resistance when I'm able to do all reps in all sets, for a given motion, in good form with full range-of-motion. But, I've since read that may lead to strength imbalances. So should I not raise anything in either Workout A or Workout B until I'm able to do all reps in all sets for a given Workout?

Have you guys read the first post in this thread?