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  1. #7831
    Registered User Danny002's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    That is not true for novice lifters.
    Hahaha , we can arguing so much , but I understood your message , so i will keep for a month to see if it works this program for me and if it not , I will listen your idea .
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  2. #7832
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    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    Hahaha , we can arguing so much , but I understood your message , so i will keep for a month to see if it works this program for me and if it not , I will listen your idea .
    I mean, a novice who is benching 135 and squatting 200 on Monday will be fully recovered and ready to train again by Wednesday. Where as an advanced lifter who is benching 315+ and squatting 405+ will probably have recovery issues since his total work load is so much higher. However at that point a full body H/M/L approach could be implemented.
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  3. #7833
    Registered User gcoulson's Avatar
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    Any reason why the UL goes chest-chest-back-back as opposed to the alternative muscles that I normally see in Upper workouts chest-back-chest-back?
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  4. #7834
    Registered User Jamitupa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    Good idea but its too late , it passed 2 weeks and if i will change the program it will be a big mistake because it will be a muscle confusion.
    But you want to add exercises in... thats gonna confuse the hell out of those arms if youre not careful!
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  5. #7835
    Registered User Jamitupa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    Hahaha , we can arguing so much , but I understood your message , so i will keep for a month to see if it works this program for me and if it not , I will listen your idea .
    If youre sticking to it for a month, why do you keep making threads asking to change it
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  6. #7836
    Registered User tommy4life's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gcoulson View Post
    Any reason why the UL goes chest-chest-back-back as opposed to the alternative muscles that I normally see in Upper workouts chest-back-chest-back?
    Not particular reason except it might give you a bit more pump on the secondary exercise. You can absolutely do chest back chest back, I do.
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  7. #7837
    Registered User Cookiepizza54's Avatar
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    Hey, I'm cutting and I've been running a 6x a week PPL routine focused on linear progression for the past 12 weeks. Looking to switch to a 3x a week routine; you think the beginner routine would suit me? Stats are; weight-190 lbs, Bench-165x5, Squat 170x5, DL-265x5, OHP-100x5. I took a long time off from lifting and those numbers are obviously beginner numbers, but on my current routine I've had a hard time progressing each workout while I'm cutting. Was wondering if I may run in to the same problem here. Thanks in advance
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  8. #7838
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tommy4life View Post
    Not particular reason except it might give you a bit more pump on the secondary exercise. You can absolutely do chest back chest back, I do.
    I do bench, row, pulldown then incline. Seems to work a lot better for me.

    Originally Posted by Cookiepizza54 View Post
    Hey, I'm cutting and I've been running a 6x a week PPL routine focused on linear progression for the past 12 weeks. Looking to switch to a 3x a week routine; you think the beginner routine would suit me? Stats are; weight-190 lbs, Bench-165x5, Squat 170x5, DL-265x5, OHP-100x5. I took a long time off from lifting and those numbers are obviously beginner numbers, but on my current routine I've had a hard time progressing each workout while I'm cutting. Was wondering if I may run in to the same problem here. Thanks in advance
    I'd run the novice version until your lower body catches up to upper. Bench/ohp look good but that squat is very low. Obviously you will need to eat in a surplus to make gains.
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  9. #7839
    Registered User MattJ45's Avatar
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    Thinking of starting the intermediate 4 day plan. Is there a limit on how long you should do a particular routine/plan for?

    I only ask as I recently posted a thread about the plan I've had from a PT I'm seeing, and people expressed surprise that he hadn't changed the routine in a year. Then I read the Fierce 5 stuff and noted there is no expressed 'time limit' on running the plan (other than the notes about when to deload etc if progression stops).
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  10. #7840
    Registered User Jamitupa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    Thinking of starting the intermediate 4 day plan. Is there a limit on how long you should do a particular routine/plan for?

    I only ask as I recently posted a thread about the plan I've had from a PT I'm seeing, and people expressed surprise that he hadn't changed the routine in a year. Then I read the Fierce 5 stuff and noted there is no expressed 'time limit' on running the plan (other than the notes about when to deload etc if progression stops).
    Youve just answered your own question
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  11. #7841
    Registered User MattJ45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jamitupa View Post
    Youve just answered your own question
    Which bit?
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  12. #7842
    Registered User Jamitupa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    Which bit?
    Q: Is there a limit on how long
    A: there is no expressed 'time limit'
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  13. #7843
    Registered User MattJ45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jamitupa View Post
    Q: Is there a limit on how long
    A: there is no expressed 'time limit'
    Previously:
    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    I only ask as I recently posted a thread about the plan I've had from a PT I'm seeing, and people expressed surprise that he hadn't changed the routine in a year.
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  14. #7844
    Registered User Jamitupa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    Previously:
    I havent seen the thread but Id imagine if that was the general consensus from the regular posters then that was a good answer given your context, I would have said a year is a strangely long time to be on a completely unchanged pt program the whole time

    But thats besides the point, just because it was strange your pt program was the same for a whole year, doesnt mean programs like this have a cookie cutter time stamp for when you must stop running it or when you must run it until, that would depend on so many unique things to each person that it would be stupid to give an exact time limit
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  15. #7845
    Registered User gesler0811's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    I chose intermediate program because my goal is bodybuilding(hypertrophy) I want to train my muscle twice per week instead 1 time. And yes Im gaining weight , From january 2019 i gained 4 or 5 kg .
    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    Good idea but its too late , it passed 2 weeks and if i will change the program it will be a big mistake because it will be a muscle confusion.
    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    A full body 3x is not allowing enough recovery time for any given muscle group, upper lower program allows 48 hours for recovery
    I'm gonna jump in here because I love this program so much and I hate to see someone get on this and not get the best results they can get. AND because you're absolutely 100% confused and it's obvious.

    First of all, the 3x/Week fullbody hits each muscle group THREE times. The intermediate U/L hits each muscle group TWO times. So yo were mistaken there.

    No, that's not muscle confusion. Two weeks is nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

    The fullbody 3x week is plenty of recovery time for someone at your level. You're physically incapable at this point of damaging your muscles so much that they can't recover properly with the fullbody novice. You're just not pushing enough weight yet. That's not a knock against you. It's just what it is. You will progress MUCH faster on the fullbody novice than the U/L intermediate at your current state. Don't let your ego tell you that you need to be on the "intermediate" because that sounds better than "novice." Don't sabotage yourself by being stubborn. Do this right. Seriously.
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  16. #7846
    I need about tree fiddy davisj3537's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gcoulson View Post
    Any reason why the UL goes chest-chest-back-back as opposed to the alternative muscles that I normally see in Upper workouts chest-back-chest-back?
    Doesn't matter mate.



    Also, spread a few reps around. Thanks gents.
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  17. #7847
    Registered User MattJ45's Avatar
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    On the Intermediate Upper/Lower, just interested why the major chest work and major shoulder work (i.e. bench presses and OHP) is only once a week? I seem to read/hear everywhere about hitting each muscle twice a week for max efficiency. Not trying to second guess the plan, would just like to learn/be educated.
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  18. #7848
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    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    On the Intermediate Upper/Lower, just interested why the major chest work and major shoulder work (i.e. bench presses and OHP) is only once a week? I seem to read/hear everywhere about hitting each muscle twice a week for max efficiency. Not trying to second guess the plan, would just like to learn/be educated.
    Upper A
    Bench/incline/rear flies hits shoulder and chest
    Upper B
    OHP/flyes/facepull hits shoulders and chest
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  19. #7849
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    Originally Posted by tommy4life View Post
    Upper A
    Bench/incline/rear flies hits shoulder and chest
    Upper B
    OHP/flyes/facepull hits shoulders and chest
    Yes sorry I realise they do get hit on the other days, I just meant in terms of no shoulders on Upper A and no chest presses on Upper B. I just seem to have read a lot that suggests making sure, for example, some sort of chest press is done twice a week to maximise growth. Again, not not questioning it, just looking to learn the reasoning for doing it like this.
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    Originally Posted by Danny002 View Post
    A full body 3x is not allowing enough recovery time for any given muscle group, upper lower program allows 48 hours for recovery
    Guess my 4-5x full body are destroying my muscles......
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  21. #7851
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    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    Yes sorry I realise they do get hit on the other days, I just meant in terms of no shoulders on Upper A and no chest presses on Upper B. I just seem to have read a lot that suggests making sure, for example, some sort of chest press is done twice a week to maximise growth. Again, not not questioning it, just looking to learn the reasoning for doing it like this.
    Well upper A Bench and incline will work the front delt pretty well which will assist shoulder presses, so it's vertical press assisance.
    Upper B has OHP which has a carry over to bench for many lifters. With the flyes...they work similar muscles as bench. I suppose if you really want to focus on bench you can put a direct assistance excercise here or just more bench. I think the comms t about bench twice a week is about maximising bench..not necessarily growth.
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  22. #7852
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    Originally Posted by tommy4life View Post
    Well upper A Bench and incline will work the front delt pretty well which will assist shoulder presses, so it's vertical press assisance.
    Upper B has OHP which has a carry over to bench for many lifters. With the flyes...they work similar muscles as bench. I suppose if you really want to focus on bench you can put a direct assistance excercise here or just more bench. I think the comms t about bench twice a week is about maximising bench..not necessarily growth.
    OK fair enough, thanks. I'm definitely looking to maximise growth not just bench so guess that makes sense. Will feel odd having benched twice a week for a long time!

    P.S. Davis - would that be right that I could sub in bench twice? Not necessarily asking to, just interested.
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    Originally Posted by MattJ45 View Post
    P.S. Davis - would that be right that I could sub in bench twice? Not necessarily asking to, just interested.
    Davis isn't on here much these days so I'll answer for him and say yes. As FAQs states, any press can be substitute for another press.
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    Guess I don't see how OHP really helps much with bench presss, unless you consider the front delt to be a major player in the BP?
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    Originally Posted by gcoulson View Post
    Guess I don't see how OHP really helps much with bench presss, unless you consider the front delt to be a major player in the BP?
    Haha I don't know but Jim Wendler thinks soo, and I like them.
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    I assume answer is yes, but for novice program are trap bar DLs suitable sub for regular/barbell DLs?
    Also, what's the difference between SLDLs and RDLs? From the bb.com videos they look identical to me.
    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by tommy4life View Post
    Davis isn't on here much these days so I'll answer for him and say yes. As FAQs states, any press can be substitute for another press.
    Somewhat disagree and so would Davis, any full range of motion overhead press for another maybe.
    OHP for Bench variations.. less so, yes it used to be a sub, but that's more because so many damn people ask than it being a good idea.

    for those asking
    If you cared more about bench press particularly than general hypertrophy and physique (powerlifting goals over bodybuilder if you like),
    Then I would sub flies for a bench variation, (3ct, chest level pin, floor press.. something harder than a normal bench).

    Or run a program that has you benching 3 or 4 days a week..
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    Originally Posted by SoCalHurler View Post
    I assume answer is yes, but for novice program are trap bar DLs suitable sub for regular/barbell DLs?
    Also, what's the difference between SLDLs and RDLs? From the bb.com videos they look identical to me.
    Thanks
    Yes

    stiff legs = from the floor as a deadstop, minimal ham flexion and minimal glute involvement
    Rdl = from the top, hips pushed back and hams stretched to bar just below knees for most people, forceful glute contraction back to top.

    Lower back vs Hams/glutes dominant.

    Both are great, most will probably benefit more from Rdls if you pull conventional
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    OHP for Bench variations.. less so, .
    Forgot to mention that exception, cheers
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Somewhat disagree and so would Davis, any full range of motion overhead press for another maybe.
    OHP for Bench variations.. less so, yes it used to be a sub, but that's more because so many damn people ask than it being a good idea.

    for those asking
    If you cared more about bench press particularly than general hypertrophy and physique (powerlifting goals over bodybuilder if you like),
    Then I would sub flies for a bench variation, (3ct, chest level pin, floor press.. something harder than a normal bench).

    Or run a program that has you benching 3 or 4 days a week..
    I appreciate that, thanks. Definitely improving my physique is my main goal, lost my fat and got skinny as I had little natural muscle so trying to add as much size as I can. Is the F5 Intermediate Upper/Lower and good routine for doing that as it is then?
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