"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[jumboliah]

(5.5 years into lifting)
In the past I usually did exactly what your original post said for weaknesses, which was add a bit onto the end. Easily the most genetically lagging body part on my upper body is my biceps. My chest and tris completely dwarf them. And if I just do a bi flex, my forearm development is clearly well ahead as well. I usually do up to 2 bicep exercises twice a week. (end of upper days or end of pull days). I was wondering if there's anything else I can do, or if I should just wait it out more.

[Magis27]

I've been working out for about 8 months now using a program that I created myself, and it is 5x a week.

I've been benching 4x8 (at 155) twice a week, but I can't squat much at all and I have never done a deadlift.

Should I start doing the novice program which is only 3x a week now?

And how should I raise my bench press weight since it goes down to only 3x5 now?

[AntiFierce5]

Everyone listen: You need a 3:1 push-pull ratio for optimal balance

[RandomDudee]

I'd consider dropping a little weight from ICF weights. It adds up quick. Don't worry.

Feel free to PM me or discuss it in here, but I'll need to modify this slightly to help fix your shoulder issues. I need to know how fast you'd like to fix it to start changing this.

I pmd you but I don't know if you got ut because my phone is messing up. I'll would like to fix my shoulders as fast as possible

[TakeEverything]

What's your take on lunges/goblet lunges in place for leg press?

[Jesse012789]

stoked man i deloaded about 20% starting this program been on it a few weeks now im at about where i was before starting your program. everything feels a lot lighter now and ready to hit some PRs next workout. thanks for this program it seems so basic and well rounded its great to know ill be able to break my plateu. this program really does work.

[davisj3537]

(5.5 years into lifting)
In the past I usually did exactly what your original post said for weaknesses, which was add a bit onto the end. Easily the most genetically lagging body part on my upper body is my biceps. My chest and tris completely dwarf them. And if I just do a bi flex, my forearm development is clearly well ahead as well. I usually do up to 2 bicep exercises twice a week. (end of upper days or end of pull days). I was wondering if there's anything else I can do, or if I should just wait it out more.

Is this just a post asking for general advice or are you asking how to modify one of these programs to suit you?

I've been working out for about 8 months now using a program that I created myself, and it is 5x a week.

I've been benching 4x8 (at 155) twice a week, but I can't squat much at all and I have never done a deadlift.

Should I start doing the novice program which is only 3x a week now?

And how should I raise my bench press weight since it goes down to only 3x5 now?

Don't worry about bench...that's right. Forget about bench numbers. I'd pay a hell of a lot more attention to back and legs. Bench will increase with a good diet and program. It won't need specific work at this point. I'd suggest the novice program since it will bring up your legs/back. Continuing to strive for a superhero bench is just gonna phuck up your shoulders.

What's your take on lunges/goblet lunges in place for leg press?

That is fine.

stoked man i deloaded about 20% starting this program been on it a few weeks now im at about where i was before starting your program. everything feels a lot lighter now and ready to hit some PRs next workout. thanks for this program it seems so basic and well rounded its great to know ill be able to break my plateu. this program really does work.

Good to hear man. Smash those PRs bud.

[davisj3537]

I pmd you but I don't know if you got ut because my phone is messing up. I'll would like to fix my shoulders as fast as possible

If you want it fixed fast then reducing pressing volume considerably is important. I tried to do 2xwork pulling as pressing and worked on it for a year and still didn't fix my shoulders. I took 8 weeks off of bench and my shoulders were back to normal. Below is a modified program to help you reach your goal. In addition to the program changes you'll need to do some other stuff.

1. Limit pressing/upper trap work and stretch anterior delts, upper traps and pecs daily.
2. Increase lower/mid traps and rhomboid work. Limit stretching these.
3. Practice good posture incessantly.
4. Soft tissue work on upper traps, pecs and anterior delts.


Intermediate Upper/Lower and LPP 5 Day Plan

Lower A
Squats 3x5
Weighted Back Extensions 3x8
Leg Press 3x10
Leg Curls 3x10
Ab work 3x15/Calf raises 3x12 Superset

Upper A
Face Pulls 3x10
Incline or Decline DB Bench 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8
Bent Over Rows 3x8
Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

Legs
*Squat 3x5
*DL 3x5
Good Morning 3x8
Leg Extensions/Leg curls (Superset 3x10)
Calf work 3x12

Push
*Bench(Horizontal Press) 3x5
*OHP(Upward Press) 3x5
Dips(Downward Press) 3x8
Chest flies 3x8 (any angle)
(Pick 2 of these 4 above)
Overhead Extensions(long head iso)-3x8
shoulder or tricep iso
Ab work
Ab work

Pull
*Pendlay Rows(Horizontal Pull) 3x5
Yates Rows(Upward Pull) 3x5
Lat Pulldowns(Downward Pull) 3x8
Reverse Flies/Overhead face pulls (Superset 3x10) (For facepulls think 135-150 degree incline for the angle)
Curls 3x8






With the above changes I'd say you could fix your shoulder issue in a few months time. If you want faster results then just remove all front delt and pec exercises.

[jumboliah]

Is this just a post asking for general advice or are you asking how to modify one of these programs to suit you?

I was moreso asking about modification. I'm a fan of the structure of these templates but don't want to overdo anything. I guess both though.

[davisj3537]

I was moreso asking about modification. I'm a fan of the structure of these templates but don't want to overdo anything. I guess both though.

Which template would you like to modify? In general an extra bicep exercise isn't gonna kill any of the programs. Personally when I was doing bicep curls (don't do them anymore) I'd do 3 sets with different grips. First set was wide underhand, then close underhand and then a moderate overhand. It hits them in different ways without having to do a bunch of different exercises and unnecessary volume.

[jjasd]

Davis, I saw that a person wanted to swap incline presses for ohp...I am just starting the upper/lower split and was wondering if there was a way where I can include ohp and not lose the inclines? I know you said putting the ohp in would cause imbalance, but it's is one of my favorites, so I would hate to cut it out altogether.

[davisj3537]

Davis, I saw that a person wanted to swap incline presses for ohp...I am just starting the upper/lower split and was wondering if there was a way where I can include ohp and not lose the inclines? I know you said putting the ohp in would cause imbalance, but it's is one of my favorites, so I would hate to cut it out altogether.

You can't just add sh*t in without messing it up. If you want incline and OHP then you'll have to give up flat bench or decline bench...end of story.

[gabbielle420]

Davis, I want to use your Fierce 5 novice full body, but I prefer Deadlift over Romanian Deadlift, Overhead Press over Incline. Is this alright? question about progression, how is the progression on Pendlay Row, Lat Pulldown, Tricep Pressdown, Bicep Curl? should i add 5lbs per week? also what do you mean by add 1 rep on the weeks that im not increasing weights on 5 reps range lifts? do you mean add reps when i stall and cant add weights?

Workout A
Squat 3x5 +10lbs per week
Bench 3x5 +5lbs per week
Pendlay Row 3x8 +?
Reverse Flies 3x10 +5lbs per month
Calf Raises 2x15/Tricep Pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
Overhead Press 3x5 +5per week
Lat Pulldowns 3x8 +?
Deadlift 3x5 +10 per week
Leg Curl 3x8 +5 per week
Ab work 2x15/Bicep Curl 2x10 Superset

is this correct?

[MichielN]

Considering taking up this program to get my numbers up. As of now they are:
- backsquat: 6x190
- frontsquat: 6x165
- deadlift: 6x292
- romanian deadlift: ~10 x ~265 (something like that)
- bench press: 6x165

I'm no true novice anymore but I don't consider these numbers intermediate yet, what are your thoughts? Novice program good for me?

[superpumphenry]

Considering taking up this program to get my numbers up. As of now they are:
- backsquat: 6x190
- frontsquat: 6x165
- deadlift: 6x292
- romanian deadlift: ~10 x ~265 (something like that)
- bench press: 6x165

I'm no true novice anymore but I don't consider these numbers intermediate yet, what are your thoughts? Novice program good for me?

Yes, a novice program would work best for you until you stop making linear gains, and can no longer recover from linear progression. Then you would need to look at intermediate type programming

[jktx]

First off - Davis, greatly appreciate all the info that you've provided here. Really helps us newcomers. Last week I transitioned to the U/L split even though I'm not quite to an intermediate level yet. I'm ok with potentially slowing my progress down - did this to help my knee (3x legs per week was having an effect). Figure I'll still try novice progression. See how that goes & fall back as needed.

Couple of questions for you: (1) What would be a good substitute for leg extensions? After the last surgery the only exercise the doc warned me off was leg extensions. I know why after trying them even on the lightest weight one legged. Lunges also aren't very friendly. (2) What would you recommend as an add on for upper back? I unfortunately don't need a PT to tell me that is a glaring imbalance. Thinking of cable rows on Upper "A" & chins on Upper "B"...

Appreciate any help!

[davisj3537]

Davis, I want to use your Fierce 5 novice full body, but I prefer Deadlift over Romanian Deadlift, Overhead Press over Incline. Is this alright? question about progression, how is the progression on Pendlay Row, Lat Pulldown, Tricep Pressdown, Bicep Curl? should i add 5lbs per week? also what do you mean by add 1 rep on the weeks that im not increasing weights on 5 reps range lifts? do you mean add reps when i stall and cant add weights?

Workout A
Squat 3x5 +10lbs per week
Bench 3x5 +5lbs per week
Pendlay Row 3x8 +?
Reverse Flies 3x10 +5lbs per month
Calf Raises 2x15/Tricep Pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
Overhead Press 3x5 +5per week
Lat Pulldowns 3x8 +?
Deadlift 3x5 +10 per week
Leg Curl 3x8 +5 per week
Ab work 2x15/Bicep Curl 2x10 Superset

is this correct?

Those area acceptable subs so that isn't a problem.

Reread the post about progression and when to increase reps. "*due to equipment limitations"

[davisj3537]

Couple of questions for you: (1) What would be a good substitute for leg extensions? After the last surgery the only exercise the doc warned me off was leg extensions. I know why after trying them even on the lightest weight one legged. Lunges also aren't very friendly. (2) What would you recommend as an add on for upper back? I unfortunately don't need a PT to tell me that is a glaring imbalance. Thinking of cable rows on Upper "A" & chins on Upper "B"...

Appreciate any help!

1. Step ups. I completely understand why some people can't do these.

2. If you have kyphosis (look it up) I'll have to revamp the whole thing for you. I put one together the other day I was considering putting on the forum for the masses to use.

[jktx]

1. Step ups. I completely understand why some people can't do these.

2. If you have kyphosis (look it up) I'll have to revamp the whole thing for you. I put one together the other day I was considering putting on the forum for the masses to use.

It's not a medical issue like kyphosis - more like years of excuses & neglect. When I started back lifting my chest & shoulders seemed to really respond but my back is still lagging behind. Was thinking adding another pull might help get my back up to speed and shoulders more healthy. Would that be too much volume since there is already three pulls there?

[baynesy]

1. Step ups. I completely understand why some people can't do these.

2. If you have kyphosis (look it up) I'll have to revamp the whole thing for you. I put one together the other day I was considering putting on the forum for the masses to use.

I would be very interested in seeing this!

[davisj3537]

It's not a medical issue like kyphosis - more like years of excuses & neglect. When I started back lifting my chest & shoulders seemed to really respond but my back is still lagging behind. Was thinking adding another pull might help get my back up to speed and shoulders more healthy. Would that be too much volume since there is already three pulls there?

The program already has a good amount of back work, but if you want I'd add a horizontal pull like face pulls, reverse flies or y raises. I'd consider alternating them since some of them are already included on various days.

I would be very interested in seeing this!

There are very rough version currently posted in my log. These are obviously specifically designed for myself and would need revamping for general public, but the idea would be VERY similar.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1290787301

[jktx]

The program already has a good amount of back work, but if you want I'd add a horizontal pull like face pulls, reverse flies or y raises. I'd consider alternating them since some of them are already included on various days.

There are very rough version currently posted in my log. These are obviously specifically designed for myself and would need revamping for general public, but the idea would be VERY similar.

Got it, won't mess with it since there are both of those already in the U/L 4 day program with the other two back exercises each day. And thanks for the rec on the step ups - going to swap those in tomorrow. Appreciate the input!

[HeavyLifts92]

ATM are you on ur own p/p/l routine? Since its for advanced lifters.
If so, how well does it help strength-wise as im gonna preety much do something like running ur novice routine for a couple of months then move onto the upper/lower split of yours and work on it for a year or two, following up with the p/p/l my goals are mostly strength with a well balanced lean-athletic physique and just wondering if this is a good plan to follow for the next couple of years.

[davisj3537]

ATM are you on ur own p/p/l routine? Since its for advanced lifters.
If so, how well does it help strength-wise as im gonna preety much do something like running ur novice routine for a couple of months then move onto the upper/lower split of yours and work on it for a year or two, following up with the p/p/l my goals are mostly strength with a well balanced lean-athletic physique and just wondering if this is a good plan to follow for the next couple of years.

That sounds like a good plan.

I'm currently running a special kyphosis/lordosis upper/lower plan discussed two posts before yours. I'm recovering from shoulder surgery and trying to prevent a hip surgery. I can't wait to get on a full blown PPL again...injuries suck.

[HeavyLifts92]

That sounds like a good plan.

I'm currently running a special kyphosis/lordosis upper/lower plan discussed two posts before yours. I'm recovering from shoulder surgery and trying to prevent a hip surgery. I can't wait to get on a full blown PPL again...injuries suck.

Yeah they do suck. I was also running an u/p split and my upper days were purely upper back/rear delt focused because of my winged scapula, it is less noticable now as my posture has improved but still stick out, any ideas how to fix it? I've also been thinking about adding pullovers since they work anterior serratus. Anyways what advice can you give me to help fix my winged scapula


EDIT: also what exercises do you do to help fix the lordosis as i also find my lumbar is in a inward curvature and i never knew what it was since i looked it up, i had kyphosis in the past because of sitting and playing video games 6+ hours a day. I assume your doing exercises that force thoracic extension and stretching your shoulder/pec area alot.
I also switched from back squats to front squats as back squats always made me lean forward whilst front squats puts you in a more upright position. Kinda sucks to have problems all along the posterior chain and wish that i had the knowledge 5-7 years ago about keeping an upright posture or your gonna get ****ed in the future years, lol anyways just wanted to share this.

[davisj3537]

Yeah they do suck. I was also running an u/p split and my upper days were purely upper back/rear delt focused because of my winged scapula, it is less noticable now as my posture has improved but still stick out, any ideas how to fix it? I've also been thinking about adding pullovers since they work anterior serratus. Anyways what advice can you give me to help fix my winged scapula


EDIT: also what exercises do you do to help fix the lordosis as i also find my lumbar is in a inward curvature and i never knew what it was since i looked it up, i had kyphosis in the past because of sitting and playing video games 6+ hours a day. I assume your doing exercises that force thoracic extension and stretching your shoulder/pec area alot.
I also switched from back squats to front squats as back squats always made me lean forward whilst front squats puts you in a more upright position. Kinda sucks to have problems all along the posterior chain and wish that i had the knowledge 5-7 years ago about keeping an upright posture or your gonna get ****ed in the future years, lol anyways just wanted to share this.

The winging is caused by a lack of serratus anterior, low/mid traps or rhomboid deficiencies. Read more here http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ar+Movement%3A

Lordosis and kyphosis are very related. One causes the other. Fixing either is a 4 part approach.

Lordosis

1. Limit Quad/Lower back/Hip flexor work. Stretch these muscle daily.
2. Increase ab/glute/ham work. Limit stretching these.
3. Practice good posture incessantly.
4. Soft tissue work. ART or graston are popular methods.

Kyphosis

1. Limit pec/anterior delt/upper trap work. Stretch these muscle daily.
2. Increase lower/mid trap, rhomboid work. Limit stretching these.
3. Practice good posture incessantly.
4. Soft tissue work. ART or graston are popular methods.

You'll notice the programs I'm using currently avoid all the problem areas and put extra work in the deficiencies.

[HeavyLifts92]

The winging is caused by a lack of serratus anterior, low/mid traps or rhomboid deficiencies. Read more here http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ar+Movement%3A

Lordosis and kyphosis are very related. One causes the other. Fixing either is a 4 part approach.

Lordosis

1. Limit Quad/Lower back/Hip flexor work. Stretch these muscle daily.
2. Increase ab/glute/ham work. Limit stretching these.
3. Practice good posture incessantly.
4. Soft tissue work. ART or graston are popular methods.

Kyphosis

1. Limit pec/anterior delt/upper trap work. Stretch these muscle daily.
2. Increase lower/mid trap, rhomboid work. Limit stretching these.
3. Practice good posture incessantly.
4. Soft tissue work. ART or graston are popular methods.

You'll notice the programs I'm using currently avoid all the problem areas and put extra work in the deficiencies.

Thanks alot man! Really helped.

[Cranz]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but since this is an imbalance posts going on, thought I'd drop in and get some thoughts.

I suffer from APT. I have read yours posts about limiting quad work, etc. I have came up with a modification template for the leg days ( I run UL/LPP).

This will be done along with foam rolling ...Stretching hamstrings too.

Lower Workout:

Squats 3x5
Leg curl 3x10
hip thrusts 3x10
ab work 3x10
ab work 2x12

Legs:

Front Squats 3x8

SLDL 3x8-10 // I don't do this traditionally like off the floor every time, instead I do more of what All Pro's called for in his original thread, basically a hybrid between RDL & SLDL, I really feel it well in the hamstrings/glutes better than RDL.

crocodile breathing 2x12 breaths
Ab work 3x10
Ab work 2x12

Will run it for around 6-8 weeks, and once things get decent, I'll jump back on the original routine. Thanks for the help.

[HeavyLifts92]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but since this is an imbalance posts going on, thought I'd drop in and get some thoughts.

I suffer from APT. I have read yours posts about limiting quad work, etc. I have came up with a modification template for the leg days ( I run UL/LPP).

This will be done along with foam rolling ...Stretching hamstrings too.

Lower Workout:

Squats 3x5
Leg curl 3x10
hip thrusts 3x10
ab work 3x10
ab work 2x12

Legs:

Front Squats 3x8

SLDL 3x8-10 // I don't do this traditionally like off the floor every time, instead I do more of what All Pro's called for in his original thread, basically a hybrid between RDL & SLDL, I really feel it well in the hamstrings/glutes better than RDL.

crocodile breathing 2x12 breaths
Ab work 3x10
Ab work 2x12

Will run it for around 6-8 weeks, and once things get decent, I'll jump back on the original routine. Thanks for the help.

Do you have lordosis? If you do i just read on davisj's thread that you should work your glute and hams but stretch the quads and hip area since your most likely going to have tightness in that areA if i'm not mistaken.

[RandomDudee]

If you want it fixed fast then reducing pressing volume considerably is important. I tried to do 2xwork pulling as pressing and worked on it for a year and still didn't fix my shoulders. I took 8 weeks off of bench and my shoulders were back to normal. Below is a modified program to help you reach your goal. In addition to the program changes you'll need to do some other stuff.

1. Limit pressing/upper trap work and stretch anterior delts, upper traps and pecs daily.
2. Increase lower/mid traps and rhomboid work. Limit stretching these.
3. Practice good posture incessantly.
4. Soft tissue work on upper traps, pecs and anterior delts.


Intermediate Upper/Lower and LPP 5 Day Plan

Lower A
Squats 3x5
Weighted Back Extensions 3x8
Leg Press 3x10
Leg Curls 3x10
Ab work 3x15/Calf raises 3x12 Superset

Upper A
Face Pulls 3x10
Incline or Decline DB Bench 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8
Bent Over Rows 3x8
Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

Legs
*Squat 3x5
*DL 3x5
Good Morning 3x8
Leg Extensions/Leg curls (Superset 3x10)
Calf work 3x12

Push
*Bench(Horizontal Press) 3x5
*OHP(Upward Press) 3x5
Dips(Downward Press) 3x8
Chest flies 3x8 (any angle)
(Pick 2 of these 4 above)
Overhead Extensions(long head iso)-3x8
shoulder or tricep iso
Ab work
Ab work

Pull
*Pendlay Rows(Horizontal Pull) 3x5
Yates Rows(Upward Pull) 3x5
Lat Pulldowns(Downward Pull) 3x8
Reverse Flies/Overhead face pulls (Superset 3x10) (For facepulls think 135-150 degree incline for the angle)
Curls 3x8






With the above changes I'd say you could fix your shoulder issue in a few months time. If you want faster results then just remove all front delt and pec exercises.

Quick question, when i fix my problem. Do i go to the normal version of this one or continue the modified version?