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  1. #8131
    Registered User BiomedDood's Avatar
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    Has anyone done this on a cutting diet (cal reduction). I picked up some unwanted pounds over the lockdown (and work moved to remote so I'm basically a "stay at home" dad now).

    I did this for about 3 months years ago and had decent results but I was also eating in surplus. Now I'm gonna be in about 500 cals less than my maintenance but not sure if this will just burn me out.
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  2. #8132
    Registered User gr786's Avatar
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    Sorry if this has been answered somewhere before.

    Looking to move on to the Intermediate U/L split.

    Have a barbell + rack + cable machine at home. No dumbells.


    Need a substitution for
    1. Leg press
    2. Leg extension
    3. Leg curls

    ---> from what I have been able to find can use the following instead (same order)
    1. Lunges
    2. Split Squat
    3. Stiff Leg DL


    Does that sound right? Many thanks
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  3. #8133
    Registered User AdamFrostburg's Avatar
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    Hey guys, I'm trying to accurately calculate my TDEE. I have been following the Fierce 5 pretty strictly. I just rest on my off days. What should I select in terms of activity level when using online TDEE calculators?
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  4. #8134
    Registered User tommy4life's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamFrostburg View Post
    Hey guys, I'm trying to accurately calculate my TDEE. I have been following the Fierce 5 pretty strictly. I just rest on my off days. What should I select in terms of activity level when using online TDEE calculators?
    I wouldn't use a TDEE calculator at all. Eat like you normal would (at maintenance) and keep a food journal for like 4 days. Many apps for this. Calculate the average calorie consumed per day. A lot more accurate and specific to your body.
    531 Workout Journal https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=179104531&page=1
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  5. #8135
    Registered User klbbr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    I assume OP isn't still around, but if you are, thanks a lot for the thread. About the program, does anyone know if OP has a PPL 6 day version of it? I use a PPL program now (from Muscle and Fitness) that's without face pulls and heavily based on machines, so it'd be interesting to check whether there are more suited programs available. Either by davisj3537 or someone else. If you know of one, please post.
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  6. #8136
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by klbbr View Post
    I assume OP isn't still around, but if you are, thanks a lot for the thread. About the program, does anyone know if OP has a PPL 6 day version of it? I use a PPL program now (from Muscle and Fitness) that's without face pulls and heavily based on machines, so it'd be interesting to check whether there are more suited programs available. Either by davisj3537 or someone else. If you know of one, please post.

    He removed the 6 day ppl. It was just a copy and paste from the ulppl. 3 on 1 off rotation. It’s not recommended anymore and is inferior to the 5 day plan though.
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  7. #8137
    Registered User klbbr's Avatar
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    How come it's inferior and not recommended? I am on a 6 Day PPL Split now, but always fall short giving me more rest days, as life gets in the way of lifting.
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  8. #8138
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by klbbr View Post
    How come it's inferior and not recommended? I am on a 6 Day PPL Split now, but always fall short giving me more rest days, as life gets in the way of lifting.
    OPs opinion was that it’s just too much for nearly all lifers. The 5 day plan has the same frequency and more time to rest.

    My opinion is that no natural needs more than 4 days per week in the weight room.
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  9. #8139
    Registered User paulinkansas's Avatar
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    I tried a 6 day ppl after lifting for about 18 months. Felt like I was run over by a train after 3 weeks. 5 day pplul was better for me.
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  10. #8140
    Registered User klbbr's Avatar
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    Appreciated. If cutting back from a 6 day split into something like this. What's you guys' opinion on that:

    Monday PUSH
    Tuesday PULL
    Wednesday LEGS
    Thursday REST
    Friday PUSH
    Saturday PULL
    Sunday LEGS
    Monday REST
    Tuesday PUSH
    Wednesday PULL
    Thursday LEGS
    Friday REST
    Saturday PUSH
    Sunday PULL

    I take it you still prefer a 4 day split, TAWS6, but regardless of that, is it lacking in other ways than the 5 day PPLUP? Only thing that pops out to me is few leg days. But lemme know if you see more things.

    EDIT. Btw, I really appreciate the feedback you're giving. I did a full body thrice a week before and had this feeling "Felt like I was run over by a train after 3 weeks." only I kept going and going and going. Each full body lasted longer and longer, like hours and hours working out to complete everything. That's why I favor a PPL to be able to get a workout done in one hour. But it could be I'd get overtrained by a six day split, like it seems you were paulinkansas, so it could be a split with fewer days, such as PPLUP, would be better.
    Last edited by klbbr; 08-24-2021 at 04:44 AM.
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  11. #8141
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by klbbr View Post
    Appreciated. If cutting back from a 6 day split into something like this. What's you guys' opinion on that:

    Monday PUSH
    Tuesday PULL
    Wednesday LEGS
    Thursday REST
    Friday PUSH
    Saturday PULL
    Sunday LEGS
    Monday REST
    Tuesday PUSH
    Wednesday PULL
    Thursday LEGS
    Friday REST
    Saturday PUSH
    Sunday PULL

    I take it you still prefer a 4 day split, TAWS6, but regardless of that, is it lacking in other ways than the 5 day PPLUP? Only thing that pops out to me is few leg days. But lemme know if you see more things.

    EDIT. Btw, I really appreciate the feedback you're giving. I did a full body thrice a week before and had this feeling "Felt like I was run over by a train after 3 weeks." only I kept going and going and going. Each full body lasted longer and longer, like hours and hours working out to complete everything. That's why I favor a PPL to be able to get a workout done in one hour. But it could be I'd get overtrained by a six day split, like it seems you were paulinkansas, so it could be a split with fewer days, such as PPLUP, would be better.
    Yeah as strength goes up Full body becomes unworkable unless its a heavy/light. Its better with that PPL setup versus 6 days in a row for sure. I ran it LPP off LPP. I got burnt out on that rotation. I also ran the LULPP split for a year. It was better but I saw no benefits over the upper/lower 4 day. To be honest you eventually hit your genetic limit. You can get there with a 4, 5, or 6 day program. IMO you'll get there the fastest if you don't burn out or get injured.
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  12. #8142
    Registered User klbbr's Avatar
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    Appreciated. Thanks. I might head for a burnout with the current regime yeah. What's preventing me I guess is that life comes in the way of lifting, so in reality I get more rest between sessions. What I aim for is at legs twice a week. Not less. That has primacy, as my legs are underdeveloped (home gym with poor equipment up until recently). And then I do push and pull when time allows.

    So this is your priorities:
    6 day PPL < LULPP < Upper/lower twice a week

    I will definitely add the LULLP to my workout app, ready for use. I guess different bodies, different solutions. I have struggled getting enough volume on the upper days when trying upper/lower twice a week. I get fatigued before I reach the recommended number of sets.

    And @paulinkansas if you have another two cents they're worth ten dollars and change to me.
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  13. #8143
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    Yeah as strength goes up Full body becomes unworkable unless its a heavy/light. Its better with that PPL setup versus 6 days in a row for sure. I ran it LPP off LPP. I got burnt out on that rotation. I also ran the LULPP split for a year. It was better but I saw no benefits over the upper/lower 4 day. To be honest you eventually hit your genetic limit. You can get there with a 4, 5, or 6 day program. IMO you'll get there the fastest if you don't burn out or get injured.
    I vehemently disagree that fb becomes unworkable as you get stronger/more advanced in principle.
    <caveat imcoming>

    But in THIS style of programming. I agree it would bury almost everyone in a huge recovery debt and over use injuries will be imbound.. 👍 And I also think that 4 real sessions a week is enough for 99% of people too
    FMH crew - Couch.
    Washed up meathead

    Masters lifter.. With a lot less F's left to give
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  14. #8144
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    I vehemently disagree that fb becomes unworkable as you get stronger/more advanced in principle.
    <caveat imcoming>

    But in THIS style of programming. I agree it would bury almost everyone in a huge recovery debt and over use injuries will be imbound.. 👍 And I also think that 4 real sessions a week is enough for 99% of people too
    Yeah yeah you know what I mean haha.
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  15. #8145
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by klbbr View Post
    Appreciated. Thanks. I might head for a burnout with the current regime yeah. What's preventing me I guess is that life comes in the way of lifting, so in reality I get more rest between sessions. What I aim for is at legs twice a week. Not less. That has primacy, as my legs are underdeveloped (home gym with poor equipment up until recently). And then I do push and pull when time allows.

    So this is your priorities:
    6 day PPL < LULPP < Upper/lower twice a week

    I will definitely add the LULLP to my workout app, ready for use. I guess different bodies, different solutions. I have struggled getting enough volume on the upper days when trying upper/lower twice a week. I get fatigued before I reach the recommended number of sets.

    And @paulinkansas if you have another two cents they're worth ten dollars and change to me.
    You can also program upper lower as a heavy light or do specialization cycles as you become more advanced. ULPPL will also get it done but not my fav.
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  16. #8146
    Registered User Rsurf72's Avatar
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    ?

    [QUOTE=davisj3537;1266761131]The Intermediate Upper/Lower

    Upper A
    Bench 3x5
    Incline Bench 3x8
    Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
    Bent Over Rows 3x8
    Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

    Lower A
    Squats 3x5
    Weighted Back Extensions 3x8
    Leg Press 3x10
    Leg Curls 3x10
    Ab work 3x15/Calf raises 3x12 Superset

    Upper B
    OHP 3x5
    Flies 3x10
    Pullups 3x8
    Pendlay Rows 3x8
    Face Pulls 3x12/Tricep pressdowns 3x10 Superset

    Lower B
    Front Squat 3x5
    Romanian Deadlift 3x8
    Leg Extensions 3x10
    Leg Curls 3x10
    Ab work 3x15/Calf Raises 3x12 Superset

    I really like the looks of this, although I don't have any equip for back extension or leg extension and curls, perhaps I can try something else in place of. Do you have any suggestions? I have a barbell, dumbells, and a bench. And a doorway pull-up bar, which will likely replace the lat pulldown in said routine.

    Right now I am doing
    .theproteinworks.com/thelockerroom/the-john-grimek-full-body-workout
    I am about a month in, maybe my protein synthesis will increase in time.
    my body cannot recover enough, especially after Monday, the bench squat pullups I think get my nervous system fried, so I was going to switch heavy bench Mondays with lighter Incline db Wednesday, keeping Fri the same likely.

    I am 28. Worked out for a year when I was 24 and gained 10lbs of muscle doing some 4 or 5 day brosplit (which I loved), I'm about a month in starting weightlifting again after being sedentary and injure.
    Has anybody experienced trying a routine in reverse or is that mere madness

    I take this seriously so I decided to come online here. Thank you.

    Edit- response may be slow but am eager for, I'm on mobile and it's tortuously slow navigating the forums on the web browser. Many thanks
    Last edited by Rsurf72; 08-27-2021 at 04:35 PM.
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  17. #8147
    Registered User Gainz4BROdin's Avatar
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    Hey guys one question
    Checked acceptable subs for the upper lower but don't see no sub for back extensions, is there a valid sub for this? Hip thrusts or something ? (Not sure if hip thrusts are a valid sub, just throwing it out there)
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  18. #8148
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gainz4BROdin View Post
    Hey guys one question
    Checked acceptable subs for the upper lower but don't see no sub for back extensions, is there a valid sub for this? Hip thrusts or something ? (Not sure if hip thrusts are a valid sub, just throwing it out there)
    RDL or Good mornings would be my pick.
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  19. #8149
    Registered User Gainz4BROdin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    RDL or Good mornings would be my pick.
    Thanks, I'll pick Good Mornings then since Lower 2 already has RDLs in them
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  20. #8150
    Registered User Anthony21's Avatar
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    How would one go about making subs for movements like the leg press, leg extension, and leg curls? I could theoretically do banded leg curls and extensions but it's pretty hard to progress from an overload stand point with that.

    In stead of a weighted back extension I figure I can do use my reverse hyper as a sub.

    I train out of my garage gym thus the reason for not having certain equipment.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    My training log: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=178464441
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  21. #8151
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Anthony21 View Post
    How would one go about making subs for movements like the leg press, leg extension, and leg curls? I could theoretically do banded leg curls and extensions but it's pretty hard to progress from an overload stand point with that.

    In stead of a weighted back extension I figure I can do use my reverse hyper as a sub.

    I train out of my garage gym thus the reason for not having certain equipment.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Walking lunges or front squat would be a good sub for the leg press. My leg curl is a pos so I usually do Db rdls instead. I think you might be beat on the leg extensions.
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    Registered User Anthony21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    Walking lunges or front squat would be a good sub for the leg press. My leg curl is a pos so I usually do Db rdls instead. I think you might be beat on the leg extensions.
    Yeah, I was thinking something like an SSB Bulgarian split squat would be pretty solid.
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    Thank you to whoever bumped this. The website Fierce 5 does not say what the triceps are supersetted with.

    Wow. The Fierce 5 looks like the program I came up with.

    I would swap the lat pull downs from B to A and the Facepulls from A to B, since Pendley rows and Facepulls both work the mid back.

    For those not in a hurry or not dealing with crowds, I'd do one set each of abs, curls, triceps, and calf raises on both days instead of 2 of some on different days. I heard the first set has more hypertrophy than the second set.

    I definitely like the exercises listed as well as their volumes. The way they are clumped is simpler and faster in a busy gym, especially after warm ups.
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    The Intermediate Upper/Lower

    Upper A
    Bench 3x5
    Incline Bench 3x8
    Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
    Bent Over Rows 3x8
    Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

    Lower A
    Squats 3x5
    Weighted Back Extensions 3x8
    Leg Press 3x10
    Leg Curls 3x10
    Ab work 3x15/Calf raises 3x12 Superset

    Upper B
    OHP 3x5
    Flies 3x10
    Pullups 3x8
    Pendlay Rows 3x8
    Face Pulls 3x12/Tricep pressdowns 3x10 Superset

    Lower B
    Front Squat 3x5
    Romanian Deadlift 3x8
    Leg Extensions 3x10
    Leg Curls 3x10
    Ab work 3x15/Calf Raises 3x12 Superset

    You will be working out 2 consecutive days followed by a rest day and then 2 more consecutive days. Ex: Mon-Upper A, Tues-Lower A, Wed-Rest, Thur-Upper B, Fri-Lower B, Sat-Rest, Sun-Rest, Mon-Upper A…etc.

    You’ll add 5 lbs to all of your upper body lifts* and 10lbs to all of your lower body lifts every 2 weeks. After 1 week increase the reps by 1 on every set. Ex: Instead of doing bench 3x5 you'll do 3x6. At the end of that week weight increases and the reps will drop back down to 3x5.

    *The weight increases are halved between DB exercises. Use your best judgment on weight increases for isolation exercises. The progression may be too fast.


    [Click to return to top]
    is there a substitute for weighted back extensions? since my gym does not have the right equipment for this
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    Originally Posted by tabmax22 View Post
    is there a substitute for weighted back extensions? since my gym does not have the right equipment for this
    I’d do either db or barbell rdls.
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    Celltech Connoisseur DEVBRUH's Avatar
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    I’m about to start a cut so figured I’d drop volume by going off PPL and starting up the U/L again.

    The issue I have is that after the back extensions my lower back is so tight that it compromises my ROM and form on the leg press.

    I have APT among other flexibility and postural issues that I’m working on solving. Hip thrusts have been working so I’d like to incorporate them, perhaps by subbing for the back extensions. I realise it’s an exercise with an entirely different focus, but I have a strong and thick lower back already so figured it may help correct the imbalance. Any thoughts on this?

    I’m also subbing in deadlifts (+ lunges) since I lack the flexibility for front squats.
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    Masstrophysicist Camarija's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DEVBRUH View Post
    I’m about to start a cut so figured I’d drop volume by going off PPL and starting up the U/L again.

    The issue I have is that after the back extensions my lower back is so tight that it compromises my ROM and form on the leg press.

    I have APT among other flexibility and postural issues that I’m working on solving. Hip thrusts have been working so I’d like to incorporate them, perhaps by subbing for the back extensions. I realise it’s an exercise with an entirely different focus, but I have a strong and thick lower back already so figured it may help correct the imbalance. Any thoughts on this?

    I’m also subbing in deadlifts (+ lunges) since I lack the flexibility for front squats.
    It sounds like you're performing back extensions and getting a back pump
    Im 99% certain the purpose of back extensions in this type of progrsmming is supposed to be hitting your hamstrings and glutes, not your lower back


    Imagine you are thrusting your hips into the back extension pad, and really contract your hamstrings.
    If yiu do it this way, you will feel an incredibly deep hamstring burn, and basically zero lower back
    ► Intermediate Bodybuilding Classic Physique ► Renaissance Periodization Programming
    ► https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=180349883
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    Originally Posted by Camarija View Post
    It sounds like you're performing back extensions and getting a back pump
    Im 99% certain the purpose of back extensions in this type of progrsmming is supposed to be hitting your hamstrings and glutes, not your lower back


    Imagine you are thrusting your hips into the back extension pad, and really contract your hamstrings.
    If yiu do it this way, you will feel an incredibly deep hamstring burn, and basically zero lower back
    I think you might be right, I will try this thanks.
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    I began designing the "Fierce 5" series because I wasn't completely satisfied with the majority of programs that are so popular. In my opinion they all had a flaw or two (slow progression, high volume, low enough volume people lose interest and nearly all of them lack what I’d consider proper balance), albeit small inadequacies in some cases. I just wanted programs I could advise people to run without needing to make any modifications.


    Click the Links below to find the program appropriate for you.





    Please read the FAQ before asking questions.
    Hello @davisj3537 I have been following your Fierce 5 Workout routine. I stop working out for 2yrs and I wanted to get back now. I have a good form, have decent body but having belly guts lol.
    Height: 5'6
    Weight: 81kg
    fat%: maybe 25% more

    my goal is to cut down a little like 70kg or 75kg and go for Bulk. Should I still use Fierce 5 workout Routine or I go for Intermediate? If I go for Fierce 5 routine, is there any changes for the routine or weight progression? Thanks in advance man
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    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by reeymar View Post
    Hello @davisj3537 I have been following your Fierce 5 Workout routine. I stop working out for 2yrs and I wanted to get back now. I have a good form, have decent body but having belly guts lol.
    Height: 5'6
    Weight: 81kg
    fat%: maybe 25% more

    my goal is to cut down a little like 70kg or 75kg and go for Bulk. Should I still use Fierce 5 workout Routine or I go for Intermediate? If I go for Fierce 5 routine, is there any changes for the routine or weight progression? Thanks in advance man
    If you haven't trained for two years, the novice program will be more suitable than the intermediate. If you're looking to lose weight while doing this routine, you may need to decrease the progression after a while - add a rep one week and weight the next week instead of adding weight every week. Otherwise you could try the All Pro routine which has slower progression.
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