"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[ExistNExcel]

Hi Davis!
Thank you for this beautiful program and your unconditional support sir!

I have been cutting since ~22% with Fierce 5 Novice routine.
Started lifting srs on this program properly since 2015 but 2 separate prolonged binge relapses forced me to cut again twice, to where I stand today. I'm sincerely working on that and would like some assistance, please.

Current Stats:
Age - 31
Height - 5' 6.5"
Weight 137.15 lbs, holding ~119.71 lbs LBM

1RMs - Back Sqt - 198lb, Front Sqt - 173lb, RDL (with lifting straps cuz I dont want to use mixed grip cuz of left shoulder) 273lb, Calf-Raise - 216lb,
Pendlay-Row 123lb, Lat-P - 125lb, Bench-P - 99lb, Overhead-P - 62lb,
Hanging weighted Knee Raise with lifting straps (Abs) - 30lb, Tricep PressD - 59lb, B.Curl - 59lb, Face Pull - 49lb
I do 2 warm up sets for all exercises.

Waist - 30"
Estimated Body-Fat according to Navy Circumference Method - 12.72%

I just got done with my cut on Friday. Check out the attached pix.

I have never bulked before. Chest & shoulders are terribly behind but am since I'm a beginner(ish?) I guess it doesn't matter. Am solely focusing on correct form & execution with full ROM; cheating form & ROM to only progress when confident of sure progress wrt individual lifts. Micro progressing whenever I can, in short giving my all, while establishing sound mind muscle connection. Feel like I learn something new every time I lift, srs, exaggeration aside. Corrected my pendlay, OHP and bench form drastically due to which lifts are quite low for those, and also those muscles are weaker than the others, I reckon.

I feel its time to bulk on a 10% surplus (for a 1.7lb monthly gain) even though I haven't reached recommended 12%BF and squeeze out as as much progress as I can (esp on chest & shoulders) while on Fierce 5 Novice routine, while on the lean bulk.
Right now looking DYEL mode with full sleeved clothes. Think I must build up a solid muscle base before cutting again for "dem abs".

Also have started doing rounded shoulders correcting and rotator cuff strengthening exercises on days of cardio (thrice a week). Rounded n rotator mobility issues are even more pronounced with left shoulder. But on my way towards getting that fixed.

TL;DR - Although almost reached intermediate lifts for lower body (and Back muscles) while cutting since 2 years, am thinking of clean bulking for 5 months (till I reach 15%bf) and while still on novice f5 and then go on a max 3 month cut while on same program, maximize lift stats on the novice program. Then go for 2018 bulk session with intermediate f5.

Do you think I'm on the right track regarding the next step I should take towards progress?

Thank you!

[davisj3537]

How does fierce 5 lu/lpp measure up against 531 BBB. Fierce seams more size oriented and 531 bbb a bit more strength?
Same time, i remember Davis mentioning he held some powerlifting records or something.
Im torn between these 2 routines.

I really enjoyed my time on 5/3/1 and would advise it to anyone. He does say in the book to add back sets though. Helps the push/pull ratio.

Oh sh*t yeah haha of course! 180!

Are you supposrd to follow the normal 2 week progression when ramping back up to where you previously failed or can you up the weight each week? For example:

Week 1: 200lbs 3x5 (failed)
Week 2: 200lbs 3x6 (failed)
Week 3: 180lbs 3x5
Week 4: 190lbs 3x5
Week 5: 200lbs 3x5 (Previous fail)
Week 6: 200lbs 3x6
Week 7: 210lbs 3x5
Week 8: 210lbs 3x6

And so on....

Normal progression. You NEED this time at lower weights to push further than you did last time.

TL;DR - Although almost reached intermediate lifts for lower body (and Back muscles) while cutting since 2 years, am thinking of clean bulking for 5 months (till I reach 15%bf) and while still on novice f5 and then go on a max 3 month cut while on same program, maximize lift stats on the novice program. Then go for 2018 bulk session with intermediate f5.

Do you think I'm on the right track regarding the next step I should take towards progress?

Thank you!

I think you're doing exactly what you should be with the only exception being that when you finish the 5 months bulk (possibly sooner) switch to the intermediate routine. No sense in staying on the novice version during the 3 month cut OR staying on the novice if the bulk isn't going well. I would give it a few months at the least though.

[Buckeyes2199]

Would you say that the U/L and L/U LPP are that much different? Would an intermediate be fine running either or?

Thanks

[davisj3537]

Would you say that the U/L and L/U LPP are that much different? Would an intermediate be fine running either or?

Thanks

No. Yes.

[Mackiavelli]

I really enjoyed my time on 5/3/1 and would advise it to anyone. He does say in the book to add back sets though. Helps the push/pull ratio.

Normal progression. You NEED this time at lower weights to push further than you did last time.

I think you're doing exactly what you should be with the only exception being that when you finish the 5 months bulk (possibly sooner) switch to the intermediate routine. No sense in staying on the novice version during the 3 month cut OR staying on the novice if the bulk isn't going well. I would give it a few months at the least though.

Just to add to this, I failed my over head press for the 1st* time at 3x6 so next week would I go back to 3x5 or try 3x6 again? So far I'm thinking I'll try 3x6 again and if I succeed then add 5 pounds like normal.

[Dani163]

I have a bad pain in my hamstring after doing squats and deadlifts a couple of times, I don't know if it's sore or if I'm ''overtraining''. Last time I did bench I could feel my CNS was bad because my forearms was shaking when I lifted the bar from the rack on the bench, also I couldn't do 5 consecutive reps properly on both squats and bench press. Same goes for the RDL. Could it be that I lift heavier the same week, due to my misconception of the Fierce 5 routine? What I thought was that for each workout day I will add 5 and 10 lbs to my upper/lower body parts. But please don't criticize me because I'm only 2-3 weeks into this program.

Because of these mistakes, what should I be doing next to correct myself into the right path in the program?

Also, if I were to do only 2 reps on a set due to fatigue during the workout, should I compensate that set with one more ''correct'' set? Or should I accept my 2 reps instead of the 5 reps.

[WolfRose7]

I have a bad pain in my hamstring after doing squats and deadlifts a couple of times, I don't know if it's sore or if I'm ''overtraining''. Last time I did bench I could feel my CNS was bad because my forearms was shaking when I lifted the bar from the rack on the bench, also I couldn't do 5 consecutive reps properly on both squats and bench press. Same goes for the RDL. Could it be that I lift heavier the same week, due to my misconception of the Fierce 5 routine? What I thought was that for each workout day I will add 5 and 10 lbs to my upper/lower body parts. But please don't criticize me because I'm only 2-3 weeks into this program.

Because of these mistakes, what should I be doing next to correct myself into the right path in the program?

Also, if I were to do only 2 reps on a set due to fatigue during the workout, should I compensate that set with one more ''correct'' set? Or should I accept my 2 reps instead of the 5 reps.

if you don't meet the reps, or you do but your form is really poor, it's a failed set.
If you fail the same weight two workouts in a row you drop the weight by 15% for that exercise and work back up with the usual 5lbs/10lbs per week not day.

Though if I only got 2 reps on a set that was meant to be 5 I'd deload immediately.

[Dani163]

Though if I only got 2 reps on a set that was meant to be 5 I'd deload immediately.

It was my mistake to add on weights every workout instead of each week and push myself to the limit and accept 3-4 reps on a set. Some days I even removed a few lbs off of an exercise to be able to do a correct lift with proper form.

Now that I've come into understanding of the proper workout, I'll readjust to the proper routine of adding 5-10 lbs to my workouts each week instead of each workout day.

If I do a deload on one particular exercise that I failed at, should I do it on the rest of the exercises too?

And as I was mentioning earlier, I might have a clue on why my CNS is bad. Could it be that I added on too much weight on a short period of time? Because I can feel how weak my forearms are, especially on front squats, deadlifts and the bench press. Observe, I always do a warmup and a short 15-30 sec stretch on my muscle groups before the workout.

[davisj3537]

Just to add to this, I failed my over head press for the 1st* time at 3x6 so next week would I go back to 3x5 or try 3x6 again? So far I'm thinking I'll try 3x6 again and if I succeed then add 5 pounds like normal.

correct

It was my mistake to add on weights every workout instead of each week and push myself to the limit and accept 3-4 reps on a set. Some days I even removed a few lbs off of an exercise to be able to do a correct lift with proper form.

Now that I've come into understanding of the proper workout, I'll readjust to the proper routine of adding 5-10 lbs to my workouts each week instead of each workout day.

If I do a deload on one particular exercise that I failed at, should I do it on the rest of the exercises too?

And as I was mentioning earlier, I might have a clue on why my CNS is bad. Could it be that I added on too much weight on a short period of time? Because I can feel how weak my forearms are, especially on front squats, deadlifts and the bench press. Observe, I always do a warmup and a short 15-30 sec stretch on my muscle groups before the workout.

Take a moment and reeducate yourself on the differences between a deload and reset from the FAQ (towards the top). I don't understand what you're saying because you're confusing the two.

[WolfRose7]

It was my mistake to add on weights every workout instead of each week and push myself to the limit and accept 3-4 reps on a set. Some days I even removed a few lbs off of an exercise to be able to do a correct lift with proper form.

Now that I've come into understanding of the proper workout, I'll readjust to the proper routine of adding 5-10 lbs to my workouts each week instead of each workout day.

If I do a deload on one particular exercise that I failed at, should I do it on the rest of the exercises too?

And as I was mentioning earlier, I might have a clue on why my CNS is bad. Could it be that I added on too much weight on a short period of time? Because I can feel how weak my forearms are, especially on front squats, deadlifts and the bench press. Observe, I always do a warmup and a short 15-30 sec stretch on my muscle groups before the workout.

Just deload the exercise you failed at, if your bench is progressing fine and your squat needs deloading, there is no need to deload your bench .
sounds like you are just unused to the strain of lifting that weight, which if you were constantly pushing to add weight no matter the form would not help.

Also Front Squats and Deadlifts can easily leave me feeling spent.
Just start following the program as usual, and you'll probably not worry about your CNS again.

^^this also depends on your sleep quality and diet, If you are trying to cut while adding weight to the bar I'd expect to feel more worn out as well.

[gesler0811]

It was my mistake to add on weights every workout instead of each week and push myself to the limit and accept 3-4 reps on a set. Some days I even removed a few lbs off of an exercise to be able to do a correct lift with proper form.

Now that I've come into understanding of the proper workout, I'll readjust to the proper routine of adding 5-10 lbs to my workouts each week instead of each workout day.

If I do a deload on one particular exercise that I failed at, should I do it on the rest of the exercises too?

And as I was mentioning earlier, I might have a clue on why my CNS is bad. Could it be that I added on too much weight on a short period of time? Because I can feel how weak my forearms are, especially on front squats, deadlifts and the bench press. Observe, I always do a warmup and a short 15-30 sec stretch on my muscle groups before the workout.

You progressed too fast. Simple as that. And/or you started too heavy. I think I recall Davis saying you shouldn't be struggling to complete assigned reps for at least six weeks. Furthermore if you were removing weight to complete the exercises you were essentially cheating, or at the very least sabotaging your progress. Not sure where you got this idea that "your CNS is bad." You were just trying to lift too heavy too fast. Slow it down. Start with appropriate weights. Follow correct progression protocol. To answer your other question, you only reset the lift you failed. Otherwise you would never get anywhere if you reset everything every time you failed anything. Might want to spend a little more time stretching.

Sounds like you started this program way too fast with way too little understanding of what you were supposed to be doing. Do yourself a favor, go back to the first page, re-read everything in the FAQs as well as the program setup.

[MattJ45]

Could someone give me a bit of info to expand my knowledge!!

I'm interested to understand why the Novice program had me only working out 3 days a week? Every PT I've ever seen etc has had me doing 4-5 workouts a week.

I'm 100% not questioning the plan or anything, I'm currently following it to the letter. I'd just like to understand it better as at the moment, bluntly, I almost feel lazy only going in the gym 3 days a week!!!

[WolfRose7]

Could someone give me a bit of info to expand my knowledge!!

I'm interested to understand why the Novice program had me only working out 3 days a week? Every PT I've ever seen etc has had me doing 4-5 workouts a week.

I'm 100% not questioning the plan or anything, I'm currently following it to the letter. I'd just like to understand it better as at the moment, bluntly, I almost feel lazy only going in the gym 3 days a week!!!

It's because you are working each muscle group every workout day, so 3 times a week is the most you can do without overlapping muscle groups.

As for why ^^ read here

[davisj3537]

To append on that^^^^

The only other way to work each muscle group 3xweek is to do an upper/lower and go 6 days a week. Some people do this like ego, but it isn't great for beginners because of a lack of rest days and you not knowing your body and how it handles this. Ego for instance is extremely responsive to his body and knows precisely when to lower volume or take a break...etc.

[Farley1324]

Could someone give me a bit of info to expand my knowledge!!

I'm interested to understand why the Novice program had me only working out 3 days a week? Every PT I've ever seen etc has had me doing 4-5 workouts a week.

I'm 100% not questioning the plan or anything, I'm currently following it to the letter. I'd just like to understand it better as at the moment, bluntly, I almost feel lazy only going in the gym 3 days a week!!!

Question: How many of those PT's had you doing heavy, and linearly progressively heavier, to-depth barbell back squats?

[dgoyena216]

Would it be okay RDL on both lower days on the upper lower?

[MattJ45]

To append on that^^^^

The only other way to work each muscle group 3xweek is to do an upper/lower and go 6 days a week. Some people do this like ego, but it isn't great for beginners because of a lack of rest days and you not knowing your body and how it handles this. Ego for instance is extremely responsive to his body and knows precisely when to lower volume or take a break...etc.

Thanks, makes sense. Enjoying the workouts, so I'm grateful to you for them.

Question: How many of those PT's had you doing heavy, and linearly progressively heavier, to-depth barbell back squats?

I usually had squats in my routines. Just to be clear though, as I said I'm in no way questioning it, just asking to expand my own knowledge. I started reading/posting on these forums because I'm fed up with just blindly following plans and not actually understanding the principles etc.

[dgoyena216]

Also Davis, do you think there is any significance in the fact that I have noticed better progress on this upper/lower vs Viking's Barebones? Was Bare Bones too much volume for me right now?

[davisj3537]

I started reading/posting on these forums because I'm fed up with just blindly following plans and not actually understanding the principles etc.

That's a great way to learn brother. Not sure if they had squats daily or just a few days a week. You can work out daily and make less progress than 2xweek if the frequency per muscle group isn't there. So a 5day brogram that works chest, back, legs, arms, shoulders is only going to work legs 1 damn time. A 3xweek full body is going to give them three opportunities to grow instead of 1. Frequency is king brother.

Some bros in the gym will tell you "that isn't enough volume to grow," but they haven't added 80lbs to their bench in 10 days like I have before. It works. It's not the only way to grow, but I believe it to be the most efficient for a beginner.

Also Davis, do you think there is any significance in the fact that I have noticed better progress on this upper/lower vs Viking's Barebones? Was Bare Bones too much volume for me right now?

Hard to say really. May just be due to the lower rep scheme inciting more strength improvement. I would eventually try to isolate which part of this routine seems to elicit that response for you. Best way to do that is to change one thing at a time and see what happens. Maybe increase rep range, or add more volume...etc. You'll find what your body likes.

You can RDL on both days.

[cwinsor]

Hey All,

Looking for some guidance. I've been doing a split for the past 9 weeks while cutting and it's been a disaster. No progress on my lifts. I have however lost 36lbs and currently sit at 244 and 28% body fat. I'm planning to now start the Fierce 5 beginners full body routine.

I however have low back issues that I am currently seeing a PT for. They are recommending against squats and deadlifts and leg presses at this time. What should I be subbing for these?

[Farley1324]

Hey All,

Looking for some guidance. I've been doing a split for the past 9 weeks while cutting and it's been a disaster. No progress on my lifts. I have however lost 36lbs and currently sit at 244 and 28% body fat. I'm planning to now start the Fierce 5 beginners full body routine.

I however have low back issues that I am currently seeing a PT for. They are recommending against squats and deadlifts and leg presses at this time. What should I be subbing for these?

So you lost an average of 4 pounds a week? And wonder why you didn't get stronger?

What are your back issues? Had you ever put up form check videos for squats and deads?

[MyEgoProblem]

Thanks, makes sense. Enjoying the workouts, so I'm grateful to you for them.

I usually had squats in my routines. Just to be clear though, as I said I'm in no way questioning it, just asking to expand my own knowledge. I started reading/posting on these forums because I'm fed up with just blindly following plans and not actually understanding the principles etc.

Enjoy the gains and aggressive progression.. Soon stops when you leave noob land..

Starting strength
Practical programming
Programming to win
3 cheap/free reads that will be great to help you learn more... Get your self on strongerbyscience we page ams read you life away and your lifts up.

[MattJ45]

That's a great way to learn brother. Not sure if they had squats daily or just a few days a week. You can work out daily and make less progress than 2xweek if the frequency per muscle group isn't there. So a 5day brogram that works chest, back, legs, arms, shoulders is only going to work legs 1 damn time. A 3xweek full body is going to give them three opportunities to grow instead of 1. Frequency is king brother.

Some bros in the gym will tell you "that isn't enough volume to grow," but they haven't added 80lbs to their bench in 10 days like I have before. It works. It's not the only way to grow, but I believe it to be the most efficient for a beginner.

Thanks. I think the reason this all feels a bit odd to me is that (having done my research in the 'Nutrition' forums) I'm now eating more food, and in particular significantly more carbs, but going in the gym less days per week. It's making me feel like a lazy fraud as I'm eating way more bread etc which I love, yet working out less! But everything I'm reading makes sense so I just need to get used to it I guess.

Enjoy the gains and aggressive progression.. Soon stops when you leave noob land..

Starting strength
Practical programming
Programming to win
3 cheap/free reads that will be great to help you learn more... Get your self on strongerbyscience we page ams read you life away and your lifts up.

Thanks for that, I've never heard of Stronger By Science but the website looks interesting, much appreciated.

[Gain6]

Hey guys, Have any of you ever developed tennis/golfer's elbow and how did you remedy it?

I developed a mild case of it. I think the cause was my extended wrist position when I did V-bar tricep extensions I should have had a neutral wrist but didn't realise and on Pendlays I sometimes curl my wrist at the end of the concentric which must have put stress on the elbow joint. But I have reset Pendlays

My plan: maybe take a week off the gym to rest it (idk it barely hurts now), stop doing arm isolation lifts for a while, do the corrective stretches for the wrist flexors/extensors, ice it

I will still bench row ohp and use the lat pulldown unless it causes pain since the stress should be shared between more muscles and joints. Making sure to use perfect form and bailing if form breaks down

Do you need to completely take time off if it is still at the beginning stages and doesn't cause much discomfort? If yes could I keep training legs? (Front/back squats + romanian deadlifts)

[bob2589]

Hey guys, Have any of you ever developed tennis/golfer's elbow and how did you remedy it?

I developed a mild case of it. I think the cause was my extended wrist position when I did V-bar tricep extensions I should have had a neutral wrist but didn't realise and on Pendlays I sometimes curl my wrist at the end of the concentric which must have put stress on the elbow joint. But I have reset Pendlays

My plan: maybe take a week off the gym to rest it (idk it barely hurts now), stop doing arm isolation lifts for a while, do the corrective stretches for the wrist flexors/extensors, ice it

I will still bench row ohp and use the lat pulldown unless it causes pain since the stress should be shared between more muscles and joints. Making sure to use perfect form and bailing if form breaks down

Do you need to completely take time off if it is still at the beginning stages and doesn't cause much discomfort? If yes could I keep training legs? (Front/back squats + romanian deadlifts)

I had a case of it a year or so ago - Took a week off completely and then when I returned avoided tricep isolation until it has cleared up completely.

I'd say its a case of going to heavy and/or not warming up fully before pressing and doing your iso's.

What do you do to warm up your shoulders, elbows before pressing?

See how you go. If it doesnt clear up you may have to take a break from the upper body stuff. Heed the warning signs now as if you persist through pain you can fubar your elbows pretty quickly.

[Gain6]

I had a case of it a year or so ago - Took a week off completely and then when I returned avoided tricep isolation until it has cleared up completely.

I'd say its a case of going to heavy and/or not warming up fully before pressing and doing your iso's.

What do you do to warm up your shoulders, elbows before pressing?

See how you go. If it doesnt clear up you may have to take a break from the upper body stuff. Heed the warning signs now as if you persist through pain you can fubar your elbows pretty quickly.

I usually do 5 mins of cardio to just get my heart rate up and get blood flowing. Then before any compound lift I would warm up with the bar for 8-10 reps then go to 50% of my working weight and do about 5 reps then start my working sets.

I think I was most likely also going too heavy on the tricep extensions because I never resetted since I didn't miss any reps but I should still have stepped back occasionally and built back up.

As my lifts progressed I think my method didn't cut it anymore if you have any suggestions I'd really appreciate it thank you.

[Farley1324]

I usually do 5 mins of cardio to just get my heart rate up and get blood flowing. Then before any compound lift I would warm up with the bar for 8-10 reps then go to 50% of my working weight and do about 5 reps then start my working sets.

I think I was most likely also going too heavy on the tricep extensions because I never resetted since I didn't miss any reps but I should still have stepped back occasionally and built back up.

As my lifts progressed I think my method didn't cut it anymore if you have any suggestions I'd really appreciate it thank you.

Generally, especially as things get heavy and especially when talking about the first big lift of the day, you will want to do more warmup than empty bar, 50% of workset, go.

Not specific to Fierce 5 and davis may be along with different, but at least read this for the info

http://www.andybaker.com/warm/

http://startingstrength.com/training...p-is-a-warm-up

http://startingstrength.com/training/warmup

[cwinsor]

A little back story on the back. I was working out a few years back with a personal trainer and was squatting 325. I went down and my hamstring Charley horsed (PT was checking out an attractive woman across the gym). I collapsed and herniated 2 disks in my lower back and tore my SI Joint.

Still have lingering issues.

[Farley1324]

A little back story on the back. I was working out a few years back with a personal trainer and was squatting 325. I went down and my hamstring Charley horsed (PT was checking out an attractive woman across the gym). I collapsed and herniated 2 disks in my lower back and tore my SI Joint.

Still have lingering issues.

What could the PT have done about it?

Were you in a squat or power rack with appropriately set safety pins?

[cwinsor]

What could the PT have done about it?

Were you in a squat or power rack with appropriately set safety pins?

Well I suppose I was paying $110.00 an hour to at least have a spotter. I was using the half rack he had me in.

But that's not really the point of my initial question which was what exercises can I sub for squats, deadlifts and leg presses to still have an effective program.